Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[Bleh]

Dude, you are talking as if arty shrapnel is not going to be lethal for the crew. Ofcourse it won't survive a direct hit from an enemy 155 but mobility + protection form shrapnel >> mobility only.
Yeah, Bhim could have been a better option, but its already too late now. Our SPG requirement is limited. We have a factory manufacturing SPG at full speed right now (even if IP is partly foreign owned) which is about to go idle. Now is not the time to be developing Bhim. Lets quickly roll out all the K-9 Vajra T we'll ever need and ensure that the rest of the artillery is completely indigenous.

No I'm not saying that obviously Ok, again. You understand that we have towed guns right?.. With no crew protection. With no self-propelling capacity either.

With a 155mm upgrade like the Sarang is still be better to have than regular Sarangs. That's about it. Vajra is better ofcourse. But we'll continue to have exposed 155mm guns. And the one mounted on a Arjun chasis is better for an Arjun formation, logistically speaking.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

No I'm not saying that obviously Ok, again. You understand that we have towed guns right?.. With no crew protection. With no self-propelling capacity either.

With a 155mm upgrade like the Sarang is still be better to have than regular Sarangs. That's about it. Vajra is better ofcourse. But we'll continue to have exposed 155mm guns. And the one mounted on a Arjun chasis is better for an Arjun formation, logistically speaking.

But Towed Guns are employed with completely different formations, right? Their tasking is very different from the tasking of the Armoured Divisions in whose Artillery Brigade the Self Propelled Guns are deployed. As per Sundarji Doctrine, Armoured Divisions are the spearhead of the spearhead. Literally the tip of the spear (Spear being the Strike Corps and tip being the Armoured Division). We have three Armoured Divisions, each with one artillery brigade and each artillery brigade has three Self Propelled Artillery Regiments with 20 SPG each. So total SPG requirement sits at about 3X3X20=180 guns.

Now this I am not sure about but SPG might also found in Independent Armoured Brigades, of which the Indian Army has 8. These Independent Armoured Brigades are meant for minor axes of advance branching out of the major axis of advance being developed by the Armoured Divisions. Which means again, their tasking is siginificantly different from that of the holding formations which are equipped with towed artillery guns. Each Independent Armd Bde would have a single SPG regiment with 20 guns. So that gives a total of 8X20=160 guns.

Hence, total SPG requirement of Indian Army is 160+180=340.
Their tasking is different to that of towed artillery.

 

[The Maverick]

For what purpose??

in the desert where you have no trees or uneven terrain you need heavy tanks that can sustain heavy fire. The Arjun is,similar to usa,Abraham's,or european challenger and Leopard,tanks it's,designed to fight and out punch medium.weight tanks like t90 .
our Arjuns,will be based exclusively in the,desert area

 

[Willy3]

Haha for years our babus and corrupt generals boosted about T-90s lightweight and how they can be used in ladakh Arunachal etc.

A decade or 2 prior they cancelled DRDO light tank project for the same reason, boosting about the "capacity of T90".

Then why all of a sudden they came to GOI/DRDO begging about light take FFS .

Imagine having Arjun for pakistan centric threat and modified T-72 and DRDO light tank for china centric threat !!!!


Enough of the Russian junk , government must put MBTs in negetive import list.
I am sure with upgraded 2000hp engine and some other modification Arjun mk2 would rock the field.

 

[Lost user]

So?.. It's a mobile gun system, compare to towed guns. And 130 of these are already in service. And the heavy hull of Arjun would easily allow Sarang upgrade. And Vajra won't withstand an air strike either, just frag from counter-arty fire.

Also mostly because it didn't work out for the Bhim. Right now we're in a position to have succeded with that. View attachment 81945

I just think IA want to just order 100 - 200 new vajras under emergency procurement.. and since the 100th vajra is already produced, there is no time to waste.. so jaldi jaldi decommissioned.. Anyway is war breaks out.. we have them in storage..

 

[Lost user]

Rusi to IA general: Armata crew capsule can take 1000 mm dop APFSDS hit.. Crew is safe..
IA general to Rusi: Crew safety ki aisi ki taisi.. How much punishment can turret take..
Rusi: Commission double kar denge OK

 

[Fire and groove]

Arjun is more accurate than the T-90 and APFSDS has dop of 500 mm.. similar to what Indian T-90S use.. So, you say T-90s is a better killer than Arjun?

Give the T-90 the same FCS and it'll outperform the Arjun any day of the week.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Give the T-90 the same FCS and it'll outperform the Arjun any day of the week.

Apparently not.

1. Arjun has a rifled gun, which is inherently more accurate than a smoothbore gun. So T-90 will require a better FCS than that of Arjun to have similar kind of accuracy.
2. The turret stabilization of Arjun is much better than T-90 and DRDO is recently in advanced stage of develepement of a new all electric turret and gun drive, which will improve the stability much better than the current one in Arjun.
3. Arjun has auto target tracking, not present in T-90 Bhisma as of now.
4. The Hydropeneumatic suspension system improves the stability of the Arjun while on the move. So that it can easily hit moving targets while on the move. T-90 lacks this ability, and even when the gun fires the whole T-90 tank shakes.
5. The redesigned transmission system in MK1A is a major improvement over that of MK1. The Arjun MK1 beat the T-90 in mobility trials in the 2007-08 comparitive tests itself. Army had to relax many of the parameters for the T-90 in order to make it pass the trials.


The other comparitive results are doccumented in the CAG report.

 

[Fire and groove]

Apparently not.

1. Arjun has a rifled gun, which is inherently more accurate than a smoothbore gun. So T-90 will require a better FCS than that of Arjun to have similar kind of accuracy.
2. The turret stabilization of Arjun is much better than T-90 and DRDO is recently in advanced stage of develepement of a new all electric turret and gun drive, which will improve the stability much better than the current one in Arjun.
3. Arjun has auto target tracking, not present in T-90 Bhisma as of now.
4. The Hydropeneumatic suspension system improves the stability of the Arjun while on the move. So that it can easily hit moving targets while on the move. T-90 lacks this ability, and even when the gun fires the whole T-90 tank shakes.
5. The redesigned transmission system in MK1A is a major improvement over that of MK1. The Arjun MK1 beat the T-90 in mobility trials in the 2007-08 comparitive tests itself. Army had to relax many of the parameters for the T-90 in order to make it pass the trials.


The other comparitive results are doccumented in the CAG report.

First off, rifled guns are DEFINITELY not more accurate than smoothbore. People keep peddling this due to that long range challenger 2 kill, but subsequent comparative trials in competitions using that EXACT same tank against the Leopard 2 and M1 Abrams showed the challenger 2 getting thoroughly outclassed in accuracy. In fact the Challenger 2 with it's smoothbore during the comparative trials portrayed sub-standard accuracy.
Even then, APFSDS kinetic penetrators are not designed to be fired from rifled guns. You can have the most stable gun in the world but if it can't kill reliably, it simply isn't good.

 

[Blood+]

in the desert where you have no trees or uneven terrain you need heavy tanks that can sustain heavy fire. The Arjun is,similar to usa,Abraham's,or european challenger and Leopard,tanks it's,designed to fight and out punch medium.weight tanks like t90 .
our Arjuns,will be based exclusively in the,desert area

 

[Blood+]

Rusi to IA general: Armata crew capsule can take 1000 mm dop APFSDS hit.. Crew is safe..
IA general to Rusi: Crew safety ki aisi ki taisi.. How much punishment can turret take..
Rusi: Commission double kar denge OK

More like Number of Natashas double kar denge.

 

[ClawReed787]

I love this thread

 

[Fire and groove]

First off, rifled guns are DEFINITELY not more accurate than smoothbore. People keep peddling this due to that long range challenger 2 kill, but subsequent comparative trials in competitions using that EXACT same tank against the Leopard 2 and M1 Abrams showed the challenger 2 getting thoroughly outclassed in accuracy. In fact the Challenger 2 with it's smoothbore during the comparative trials portrayed sub-standard accuracy.
Even then, APFSDS kinetic penetrators are not designed to be fired from rifled guns. You can have the most stable gun in the world but if it can't kill reliably, it simply isn't good.

Correction: "challenger 2 with it's rifled gun"

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

This thread is volatile , I like it chinkui.

 

[Blood+]

Correction: "challenger 2 with it's rifled gun"

It got shafted by both the Abrams and Leopard 2s in multiple competitions.

 

[samsaptaka]

Well, to be fair, Marut was severely handicapped due to unavailability of an engine powerful enough. But still, you do have a point.

Any sane country would have then started hunting for an engine and fixed the root cause. Instead we shelve an excellent design and our indigenous manufacturing capability and start importing en masse from ruskies !
Pathetic to say the least

 

[Johny_Baba]

Any sane country would have then started hunting for an engine and fixed the root cause. Instead we shelve an excellent design and our indigenous manufacturing capability and start importing en masse from ruskies !
Pathetic to say the least

Offtopic but,
What makes you think we didn't ? We were offered an upgrade with afterburner for that Orpheus engine on Marut WITH TOT for 5 Crore Rupees only by the british (particularly Rolls Royce), but guess what due to some politically motivated intervention the deal never happened, likely we ended up buying Su-7 from the russians as a ground attack aircraft.
Oh and yes there was this classic argument back in time by import lobby that Marut isn't supersonic we need supersonic jet, result was Mig-21 deal.
Apart from that we even tried to source an engine from Russians and even tried an Egyptian engine program but nothing came to conclusion.

 

[Bleh]

Give the T-90 the same FCS and it'll outperform the Arjun any day of the week.

Nope.

Don't spread misinformation like that if you don't understand the complexities.

Half of Arjun's accuracy on move comes from it's superior hydropneumatic suspension. They failed to replicate that on even tank Ex, there's no space.
@shuvo@y2k10's rifled gun thing was wrong, but you chose to ignore the other stuff he mentioned. T-90 can't even turn in spot & has too low reverse speed as well as turret rotation, limiting its maneuver-firing options further (will elaborate if required).

And metallurgy tech limits Arjun's long-rod & high chamber-pressure capacity & limits its gun's penetration. Once that issue is overcome, T-90 can't catch up, but probably FMBT or Mark2 if any.

Plus only 15% tank rounds are fired at other tanks. Arjun gun has its advantages.

 

[BlackViking]

Dude, you are talking as if arty shrapnel is not going to be lethal for the crew. Ofcourse it won't survive a direct hit from an enemy 155 but mobility + protection form shrapnel >> mobility only.
Yeah, Bhim could have been a better option, but its already too late now. Our SPG requirement is limited. We have a factory manufacturing SPG at full speed right now (even if IP is partly foreign owned) which is about to go idle. Now is not the time to be developing Bhim. Lets quickly roll out all the K-9 Vajra T we'll ever need and ensure that the rest of the artillery is completely indigenous.

K9's line is idle now

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

How arjun mk1a compares to that vt4 tank , porkies have got from chene