Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[porky_kicker]

You meant turret, right?? Oh and I advocated hiring some western engineers not because I think our guys couldn't do it by themselves but because of our Army's fervent love for white flesh!!

Turret yes , mistakenly wrote hull.


If that is what it takes to knock some sense into army , I am all in for it too.

 

[Blood+]

I really don't have the interest , otherwise I would have shown my design changes to the turret via CAD modelling.

Why not?? Please do a preliminary design if you can manage the time. And do take your time, there is no hurry.

 

[porky_kicker]

Marut was meant to be a subsonic plane , Egypt too was on board for this programme.
I have read they funded too.
Have you noticed how , indian military started to buy soviet weapons in mid sixties and just stopped buying western weapons at all.
Except mirage , shishumar class and jaguar .
Everything Russian.
I wonder , how did it happen ?

Con...... political funding from USSR is one factor , Google is your friend.

 

[Blood+]

Marut was meant to be a subsonic plane , Egypt too was on board for this programme.
I have read they funded too.
Have you noticed how , indian military started to buy soviet weapons in mid sixties and just stopped buying western weapons at all.
Except mirage , shishumar class and jaguar .
Everything Russian.
I wonder , how did it happen ?

Kickbacks and Natashas, what else? And the behavior of the Western nations during and after the 65 war didn't help the situation either.

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

Con...... political funding from USSR is one factor , Google is your friend.

Congress was highly close to CPSU .
Indira Gandhi gave control to leftist of educational institutions in return of political peace .
Plus rajive gandy renamed ministry of education as ministry of HRD because USSR had such a ministry.

 

[porky_kicker]

Why not?? Please do a quick one if you can manage the time. And do take your time, there is no hurry.

Life's shiit bro , only reason I am still posting here is to take my mind off. I had few months back stopped posting altogether . So very difficult to get the motivation to do the same.

But @Bleh has posted some examples , those are also doable with bare minimum changes. But I prefer sloped armour configuration , same as in merkeva . Next best is latest leopard . Best copy leopard if drdo doesn't want to put too much effort become same lineage more or less.

 

[Bleh]

Turret yes , mistakenly wrote hull.


If that is what it takes to knock some sense into army , I am all in for it too.

No no, it's not WW2!.. Sloped armour means nothing now. Nobody slopes turret armour to any significance anymore. Look at the newest tank models coming out... nowadays the armour modules look like a box that is filled with composite layers.

Doing to your examples. Merkava armour is even shitter than Arjun. See here the LOS thickness has been marked & rapidly reduces...

...and in Leopard2A5+ the armour is same. But see how they redesigned the turret to raise the gunner's sight & reduced the huge Arjun-like gun mantlet. The outer wedges are just an NERA layer, hollow inside.

 

[Blood+]

No no, it's not WW2!.. Stopped armour means nothing now. Nobody slopes turret srmour to any significance. Look at the newest tank models coming out... nowadays he armour modules looks like a box that is filled with composite layers.

Merkava armour is even shitter than Arjun. See here the LOS thickness has been marked...

...and in Leopard2A5+ the armour is same. But the redesigned the turret to raise the gunner's sight & reduced the huge Arjun-like gun mantlet. The order wedges are just an NERA layer, hollow inside.
View attachment 81441

True. Modern APFSDS rounds are specifically designed to deal with angled armor as in, they bite into slopped armor even more than flat surfaces. I should have pointed it out to him but was too lazy to do so.

 

[Bleh]

@porky_kicker contd.

Now, the Arjun is different from Leopard2, being larger & wider... meaning we can't do the same shit without weight getting over 65ton.

A feasible design modification in our case would be this. Slight angular change to reduce the width of gun-mantlet, which can now be thicker too, without any changes to the gun-mounting... only thing now is that the gun would have to be changed by lifting it through a hatch in the roof like LeClerc, K2 etc.

 

[porky_kicker]

@porky_kicker contd.

Now, the Arjun is different from Leopard2, being larger & wider... meaning we can't do the same shit without weight getting over 65ton.

A feasible design modification in our case would be this. Slight angular change to reduce the width of gun-mantlet, which can now be thicker too, without any changes to the gun-mounting... only thing now is that the gun would have to be changed by lifting it through a hatch in the roof like LeClerc, K2 etc.

Give me ( post ) the unedited pic of the pic you posted , I will show you what I meant.

 

[porky_kicker]

Here is my edit ( pic is low res )

The slope ( red line ) is bare minimal , it connects the front top vertice to the rear top vertice ( just past where turret ring sits in the hull ) in a slight line . It just removes the unnecessary bulge at the top between the 2 vertices . It allows for placement of gunners sight and commanders sight on top with clear LOS of each other, otherwise top placement of gunners sight will block LOS of commanders sight. Since the gunners sight is moved back and on top , frontal protection on both sides of the gun will be equal and ERA / NERA protection can now be placed equally on either side of the gun.

Now it is possible to place armour on the gun mantle which was not possible previously because the gunners sight left little clearance for attachment of armour at the gunner side of the mantle.

And if we don't place gunners sight on top , behind the frontal armour , the blind spot in the frontal armour due to the current position of the gunners sight will remain.

Red square is gunners sight
Red circle is commanders sight

 

[porky_kicker]

No no, it's not WW2!.. Sloped armour means nothing now. Nobody slopes turret armour to any significance anymore. Look at the newest tank models coming out... nowadays the armour modules look like a box that is filled with composite layers.

Doing to your examples. Merkava armour is even shitter than Arjun. See here the LOS thickness has been marked & rapidly reduces...

...and in Leopard2A5+ the armour is same. But see how they redesigned the turret to raise the gunner's sight & reduced the huge Arjun-like gun mantlet. The outer wedges are just an NERA layer, hollow inside.
View attachment 81441

I will ask one question only

I have a rectangular block of armour placed straight
I have that same rectangular block of armour inclined

Thickness of armour at LOS will be more for which ?

You said " See here the LOS thickness has been marked & rapidly reduces... "

No it doesn't not .
The thickness increases ( refer my rectangular block example ) , very reason why the Israelis sloped it . I fail to understand why you made this rookie mistake. You went against the laws of physics.

type 10

Leclerc

Ariete

Challenger

Abrahm

Merkava

K2

All these tanks have sloped armour in varying degrees .

And what you said regarding sloped armour being WW2 is wrong . Sloped armour is still in fashion what has changed is the implementation depending of the requirements of the designers. It is not smack in the face but more blended depending on the requirements of the designers.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

I think in most modern tanks, sloping is given in an angle to deflect an incoming projectile, not as much as to increase its LOS thickness of the armour.

Also sloping works well for metal (like steel, RHA, Titanium, DU etc.) (which are homogeneous layers), but not as much for composites.

 

[porky_kicker]

Ok I am taking sanyas from this thread

Have a good discussion everyone

 

[Bleh]

I will ask one question only

I have a rectangular block of armour placed straight
I have that same rectangular block of armour inclined

View attachment 81459

Thickness of armour at LOS will be more for which ?

View attachment 81460

You said " See here the LOS thickness has been marked & rapidly reduces... "

No it doesn't not .
The thickness increases ( refer my rectangular block example ) , very reason why the Israelis sloped it . I fail to understand why you made this rookie mistake. You went against the laws of physics.

type 10

View attachment 81451

Leclerc

View attachment 81452

Ariete

View attachment 81453

Challenger

View attachment 81454

Abrahm

View attachment 81455

Merkava

View attachment 81456

K2

View attachment 81457


All these tanks have sloped armour in varying degrees .

And what you said regarding sloped armour being WW2 is wrong . Sloped armour is still in fashion what has changed is the implementation depending of the requirements of the designers. It is not smack in the face but more blended depending on the requirements of the designers.

Maaaaaan, you don't know much about tanks, compared to your usual stuff, do you? Ok just read this before your sanyas.

The type of armor-thickness increase you are talking about worked only on World War 2 tanks, when the armour was essentially one single steel plate. But see below how the plate keeps getting longer?.. But as it's replacing the roof plate, net volume of metal is lesser & the tank is lighter.

But now is the era of composite armour, where layers of steel & ceramic & shit & crap are stacked in a hollow chamber. Nowadays, sloped armour & straight armour has the same volume at same thickness (see below square & parallelogram) as the roof has minimal thickness in comparison.

Because the side armour is considerably thicker, often the armor is angles to the sides in order to increase frontal LOS... but that comes at cost of getting thinner at angles (imagine the above is a top view to understand this). T-72/80/90 depend on this style.

Physics is a bitch. You can't get something out of nothing.

BTW here's a closer look on Merkava armour modules. I've added arrows to mark the linear armour thicknesses at various points... It has a different purpose, to protect from all sides. So they had to spread the armor instead of concentrating on the front & the thickest roof in the world.

 

[SUPERPOWER]

Maaaaaan, you don't know much about tanks, compared to your usual stuff, do you? Ok just read this before your sanyas.

The type of armor-thickness increase you are talking about worked only on World War 2 tanks, when the armour was essentially one single steel plate. But see below how the plate keeps getting longer?.. But as it's replacing the roof plate, net volume of metal is lesser & the tank is lighter.
View attachment 81478
But now is the era of composite armour, where layers of steel & ceramic & shit & crap are stacked in a hollow chamber. Nowadays, sloped armour & straight armour has the same volume at same thickness (see below square & parallelogram) as the roof has minimal thickness in comparison.
View attachment 81480
Because the side armour is considerably thicker, often the armor is angles to the sides in order to increase frontal LOS... but that comes at cost of getting thinner at angles (imagine the above is a top view to understand this). T-72/80/90 depend on this style.

Physics is a bitch. You can't get something out of nothing.

BTW here's a closer look on Merkava armour modules. I've added arrows to mark the linear armour thicknesses at various points... It has a different purpose, to protect from all sides. So they had to spread the armor instead of concentrating on the front & the thickest roof in the world.
View attachment 81481

Seriously after seeing this all tanks i feel pur arjuns turret is a big problem and i dont understand why our army dont want a auto loader!!!!

 

[Bleh]

Seriously after seeing this all tanks i feel pur arjuns turret is a big problem and i dont understand why our army dont want a auto loader!!!!

Well NGMBT it's getting turret bustle autoloader & if PKS can be taken seriously, Arjun Mark2 might too... We don't really have any information about the Mark2, except few years ago that since HNS made hull was delivered by reliance.

 

[The Maverick]

Well NGMBT it's getting turret bustle autoloader & if PKS can be taken seriously, Arjun Mark2 might too... We don't really have any information about the Mark2, except few years ago that since HNS made hull was delivered by reliance.

I hope to see 8 regiments of these,beasts,about 450 tanks in the army located in desert sectors,.
by 2025...
we must induct learn and improve.
having a 60 tonne tank alongside the bulk medium.weights t90 is a must....
I want to see over 2150 T90 and at least 450 Arjun tanks in army .
beyond this,carry 500 to 700 upgraded T72 I reserve as Force multiplier if needed

 

[Blood+]

I hope to see 8 regiments of these,beasts,about 450 tanks in the army located in desert sectors,.
by 2025...
we must induct learn and improve.
having a 60 tonne tank alongside the bulk medium.weights t90 is a must....
I want to see over 2150 T90 and at least 450 Arjun tanks in army .
beyond this,carry 500 to 700 upgraded T72 I reserve as Force multiplier if needed

For what purpose??

 

[ersakthivel]

Arjun & Bhishma both have 500-550 only at range of 2km, same as AK-1 & VT-4 actually. But atleast Arjun can hit moving target at double that range... Making its FSAPDS as useless as a pencil (unless it can hit the lower glacis plate or flank of hull & ignite the ammo).

It may be adequate in our desert scenario of long-range gunnery, detecting & engaging before the enemy can get in range to hit Arjun's huge weak spots accurately... which is quite possible. But it'll be a laughing stock in export scenario.

Arjun is in the works fr three decades,

these "huge weak spots"(if they exist, that is) were never raised by IA with CVRDE, I wonder why,

What is "not visible" to defence experts in DRDO, IA, CVRDE lab is "visible" to every "expert" here.

Rising the height of gunner's sight a few inches above to the top of the turret,

is not going to add any weight or such a big engineering challenge,


Why"this huge weak spot" argument is being repeated again and again is a mystery to me.

Anyway it's your prerograive to have aview of the tank, And I respect it, evnthough I dont agree with it



While T90's armor penetration is forever limited by the fact it has "two piece auto loader ammo", limiting the length of the penetrator in APFDS rounds,

Arjun's manual loading rifled gun faces no such issues , because it can hv

any single piece ammo with higher penetration ,

because it can accommodate higher penetrator length APFDS rounds with no issues,

As long as gun chamber pressure holds it,

Also just putting a rubber sleeve over any available APFDS round solves the "rotational" issue from rifled gun, I read that from an earlier CVRDE study,

while retaining the economic & deadly HESH round(against fortifications and other vehicles) firing ability, which needs rifled gun, as insisted by IA in its GSQR, like the challenger