Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[pmaitra]

Ok guys, each of you present your estimates, and lay it off. Let the reader pick whatsoever he wants.

 

[ersakthivel]

is "seat back" and "cupola ring" synonymous to you? because it sure as hell is not to me.

the cupola ring and the Tc's seat is at the same place, at the most you can claim 50 mm distance between them.

it was based on this picture we agreed that Tc's seat and cupola ring were almost at the same place and did the calculation.

IT IS THE HINGE ON WHICH THE CREW HATCH COVER SWIVELS THAT IS MARKED AS 2500 MM FROM ARJUN TURRET TIP BY PMAITRA'S SIDE VIEW DRAWING WITH DIMENSION. IT LIES RIGHT ON THE TC'S SEAT. SO WHAT IS THE FUSS ABOUT CUPOLA RING?

 

[Dejawolf]

If they are meters apart, Why did you accept it's distance of 2500 mm for the calculation and gave your answer?

In the first hundred posts you made after you put your 3D model you never used this blue mango picture, Am I right or wrong?

Then whatever you were saying till today was wrong?

about 18-20cm. also, the vision block measured is the commanders 3 o' clock vision block, so you need subtract 39cm, since it's approximately at the center of the hatch. and there's a small wedge between the sight cutout and gunshield about 50mm long, according to the drawing.
Dejawolf ↑

 

[ersakthivel]

Ok guys, each of you present your estimates, and lay it off. Let the reader pick whatsoever he wants.

I agree, it is not sensible to drag this on any more. So many pictures and explanations were given.I t is a waste of time to drag this anymore.

No new evidence is going to jump from heaven, So it is futile to carry on.It will only lead to frayed tempers and provocations and needless bad blood.

By now any service member who comes across this thread who has served in ARJUN alone can make an authoritative statement about this.

So let the readers pick what ever they want. I won't reply anymore on this topic.

 

[Dejawolf]

the cupola ring and the Tc's seat is at the same place, at the most you can claim 50 mm distance between them.

it was based on this picture we agreed that Tc's seat and cupola ring were almost at the same place and did the calculation.

IT IS THE HINGE ON WHICH THE CREW HATCH COVER SWIVELS THAT IS MARKED AS 2500 MM FROM ARJUN TURRET TIP BY PMAITRA'S SIDE VIEW DRAWING WITH DIMENSION. IT LIES RIGHT ON THE TC'S SEAT. SO WHAT IS THE FUSS ABOUT CUPOLA RING?

that's not the cupola ring, that's the TC's hatch hole. the cupola ring is the outer metal plate that contains all of the vision blocks.
what am i, programming a robot?

 

[ersakthivel]

that's not the cupola ring, that's the TC's hatch hole. the cupola ring is the outer metal plate that contains all of the vision blocks.
what am i, programming a robot?

Who is a robot,other than you not many carp like this,

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/9558-arjun-main-battle-tank-mbt-271.html

Since this picture is shot from above the top if you start your measurement besides the first hazy lock of the storage box on the turret side midway besides the crew hatch , and compare it with the hatch cover length ,you can get a fair idea.

Because the hazy lock and the standing crew hatch cover are on the same plane , so there is no chance of any perspective distortion of dimensions.

And you can project a perpendicular line from the hull side to the turret top for comparing.

The first lock on the storage box besides the turret is in line with crew hatch. SO you can start your pixel measurement on that plane.

To me there is no more than 400 mm space on the hull beside the turret at the side of first lock on storage box if you compare it with hatch cover width, because the space can not hold more than 2/3rds of the open hatch cover's length at that point on the plane.
So 3840-(2x400 mm)=3000mm must be the minimum turret width in any worst case scenario.
ersakthivel ↑

Definitely far from 100%, but it gets the point across I think. See with out even taking into account the slight angle to the side skirts, we already have almost 400mm free space on the left side of the tank assuming .5m hatch cover and that is over the widest part of the turret. So its pretty clear that .4m free air is the minimum possible amount on the left side of the tank and that is at the widest part of the turret, the front which is what we are discussing is narrower. So your smallest possible is actually the largest possible from a casual glance. I need more time to get better numbers but I have some ideas for how to get better and more accurate numbers.
STGN

For accepting such a simple thing like this you called STGN as backing up his claim with falsified shit.

It is you who are posting enough pictures to host a school level science exhibition and switching from picture to picture for different measurements.
Vision blocks and cupola rings don't matter.

LOOK at the drawing with scale above.You don't need explain anything to me.

Just extend a straight line from 4 meter mark in the drawing and it will cut the hinge on which the hatch cover swivels, it is right above Tc's seat.

See PMAITRA's post and cool it. there are enough intelligent guys here who will draw their own conclusions.

 

[ersakthivel]

It is wrong to extend the marking line beyond the light because as it is clear from this picture the light is to the left of the yellow box above the gunner.

In the photo it is at a different depth(in front of the yellow box ) from the yellow box infront of the gunner.

 

[Dejawolf]

It is wrong to extend the marking line beyond the light because as it is clear from this picture the light is to the left of the yellow box above the gunner.

In the photo it is at a different depth(in front of the yellow box ) from the yellow box infront of the gunner.

the yellow box is not part of the armour numbnuts.

 

[ersakthivel]

the yellow box is not part of the armour numbnuts.

What is the white wall behind the Yellow box?

There are some fasteners visible on the wall on which this yellow box is mounted.

So that must be the inner wall of the crew compartment in front of the gunner.

Finally the following image should settle all your doubts about where the armor wall starts behind the Yellow box

I think you can also understand why that wall is slanting
,

 

[ersakthivel]

the yellow box is not part of the armour numbnuts.

The above bluemango film shows the armor block behind the yellow dial box,

Look at the right of the yellow box there are dials deep inside the photograph,

Those dials must be behind the thickly armored frontal turret armor block besides the main sight

But behind the yellow box there is a deep slanting white wall, must be covering the main sight as the armor block above the gunner in leo.

Since the main sight might start above the eyes of the Tc and extend up to the roof of the tank

the slant is more pronounced once the yellow box finishes at the eye level height of TC, in the blue mangofilm.

Since that slanting armor wall behind and above the yellow dial box is covered by many dials and wires in the side on photos with Tc seated , we cannot see it.

In separate snapshots from the film it is very much visible.

 

[ersakthivel]

Saying that gunner sits beside the Tc seems to be mistake on my part as well.

This photo clearly shows the Tc sitting near the gun breech and there is no space for gunner besides him,

SO you must be right in saying that gunner sits infront of the Tc , in case this photo belongs to that of ARJUN.

 

[Dejawolf]

Saying that gunner sits beside the Tc seems to be mistake on my part as well.

This photo clearly shows the Tc sitting near the gun breech and there is no space for gunner besides him,

SO you must be right in saying that gunner sits infront of the Tc , in case this photo belongs to that of ARJUN.

thank you.

 

[militarysta]

Im not pro (as Dejawolf) but my hobbyst work:



Slopped placed FCS part is marked on orange -it's slopped.
In front of this slopped FCS part is clearly visible small periscope (vision block) it's marked on blue with red star. It.s not slopped it's placed next to armour block but it's not slopped! This what is slopped is only this orange marked part of the FCS. Under this vison bloks (but slighty on the left from it) is placed gunner main sight (marked on green) -what is helly important - it's placed verticaly on one line next to verticaly placed armour block backplate. Edges are claearly visible.

Conclusions: Dejawolf have right. There is no place for thick armour module behind main sight "doghouse" (optics) and before this small vision block (placed in one vertical line above gunner maing sight (green). Thicknes of that place is ridiculous small - smaller then Arjun gun mantled mask(!).
Circa 350mm LOS :-(
Good bless - why?

 

[ersakthivel]

Im not pro (as Dejawolf) but my hobbyst work:



Slopped placed FCS part is marked on orange -it's slopped.
In front of this slopped FCS part is clearly visible small periscope (vision block) it's marked on blue with red star. It.s not slopped it's placed next to armour block but it's not slopped! This what is slopped is only this orange marked part of the FCS. Under this vison bloks (but slighty on the left from it) is placed gunner main sight (marked on green) -what is helly important - it's placed verticaly on one line next to verticaly placed armour block backplate. Edges are claearly visible.

Conclusions: Dejawolf have right. There is no place for thick armour module behind main sight "doghouse" (optics) and before this small vision block (placed in one vertical line above gunner maing sight (green). Thicknes of that place is ridiculous small - smaller then Arjun gun mantled mask(!).
Circa 350mm LOS :-(
Good bless - why?

The most important thing you ignore here is the height.

The height of the black hose (marked with star in your first picture)beside the orange box is at the nose level of the Tc. THE MAIN SIGHT is ABOVE the NOSE LEVEL OF THE TC.

So there is every possibility that hose you point out is below the main sight.

The vision block you mentioned is visible on the top of the tank.

If the tube (you marked with star) originate from the right corner(the corner near the gun in the tank picture above), then that pipe you marked with red star in the photo is not behind the main sight, but to the left of the main sight

look at the round hole on the main sight cutaway, what I point out is that a same kind of round hole on the gun mantle plate side of the vision block you marked with star in your picture.

It is clear from the above picture that there is more than 300 mm high vertical space above the Tc's head in the crew compartment. The main sight occupies the 300 mm space above the Tc's head and the hose you marked is below the height of the main sight.

In fact the black hose is coming out of the white armor block, which indicates armor behind main sight.

And a further proof of that is , you can clearly see the armor block's white inner wall slanting in just near the pipe you marked with star.

So it is further proof that the entire main sight is covered by the armor block.

further it is obvious that if the gunner sits right behind the main sight as claimed by Deja wolf, then the pipe you marked with star well left of the orange box is positioned between the gun mantle plate and main sight ,a further proof that armor protrudes inside the crew compartment ,behind the main sight to give equal protection on all places in ARJUN turret front.

Because this image is the concrete proof that the armor block extends inside the crew compartment in behind main sight, this armor block combined with thick roof plate can compensate for the 700 mm cutaway for the main sight.

The fact that the black hose comes out of the Huge armor block above it, is a proof that there is armor behind main sight.

And that same armor block extends quite deep into crew compartment in the blue mango film photo , which is further proof that the area behind the main sight is well protected.

 

[ersakthivel]

Also the reason for the extra gap between the hatch hole and the inner side wall is that AJUN 's turret width is 3100 mm compared , higher than that of Leoparad.

That is the reason for the extra space inside and storage boxes out side. Now with mk-2 update the entire storage boxes are being replaced with composite armor blocks . So no short fall in side protection as well.

 

[militarysta]

 

[militarysta]

The most important thing you ignore here is the height.

The height of the black hose (marked with star in your first picture)beside the orange box is at the nose level of the Tc. THE MAIN SIGHT is ABOVE the NOSE LEVEL OF THE TC.

So there is every possibility that hose you point out is below the main sight.

No it's not. You propably havent idea how looks typical main sight.
The main sight is direct on front TC nose.

EMES-15 from leo-2 and similiar in shape will be Arjun main sight.
Gunner is silgty UNDER main sight and TC is on front of it in one line: main sight window - thin armour block - vision blosk whit gap under those one line - slopped "orange" FCS part - nose of the TC.

Even blind person shoud notice this.

If the tube (you marked with star) originate from the right corner(the corner near the gun in the tank picture above), then that pipe you marked with red star in the photo is not behind the main sight, but to the left of the main sight

It's completly not relevant on whicht side - right on left. Arjun main sight have layout like EMES-15 in Leo-2 or main sight in Leclerc.
vision "window" blokc , under it is placed main mehanism whit direct optical channel to the gunner pannel.

It is clear from the above picture that there is more than 300 mm high vertical space above the Tc's head in the crew compartment. The main sight occupies the 300 mm space above the Tc's head and the hose you marked is below the height of the main sight.

No, you are totally, completly wrong:
1. There is no 300mm space above TC cose TC head is pretty close to the turret roof.
2. The main sight (widnow block) is direct on front of the TC nose, while main mehanism whit optic channel is direct on front gunner head. You propably haven't even slight idea how big is main sight in tank and how "hight" is whole main sight block - window box (doghouse) and main mehanism placed under it. And this is main reson of your completly wrong conlusions.
3. "the hose" is direct on hight window blokc (doghouse)

In fact the black hose is coming out of the white armor block, which indicates armor behind main sight.

LOL
black hose is conecting Tc sight (placed on right front of it) whit Arjun electrical sytsem. No armour block whit black hose.

And a further proof of that is , you can clearly see the armor block's white inner wall slanting in just near the pipe you marked with star.

There is no slopped armour block after main sight - it's complelty vertical in one line: vison block and uder this VERTICALY PLACED is gunner sight.
This what you are taking as armour is on photo slopped turret roof!

further it is obvious that if the gunner sits right behind the main sight as claimed by Deja

Right behind main mehanism whit optic channel.
You are talking window (doghouse) as whole main sight deep - what is not true. Main sight hight is like doubled hight of gunner sight (block). And this is hight whole main sight - from top of the doghouse (window block) to main mehanism placed under it.

The fact that the black hose comes out of the Huge armor block above it

This " Huge armor block above it"is Tc main panoramic sight. There is no armour block behind those small vision block on turret roof.

Jesus -You haven't idea what you are looking for!

 

[Dejawolf]

geh

 

[ersakthivel]

Well that is not ARJUN as it is made in AVADI.

Where did you get dimensions for that model?

That is the gunners compartment of ARJUN, The yellow dial box is SLANTING above the head of the gunner.

Where is it in your 3D model?

And look at the huge inward protruding white armor block in front of TC and above gunner's head, in the blue mango film photo below,(above the yellow dial box .)

Where is it your 3D model?

In the place of the slant inner wall and huge white armor block above the orange dial you are showing a flat inner wall before the Tc and the gunner.

:taunt1:

look at the white armor block above the same yellow dial, where is it in your 3d model?

There is clearly more than 300 mm space above the Tc's head. You said that Tc's head is pretty close to roof. How close?

can't you see there is a space equal to his head height, between the roof and his head top?

Whatever sight that is there is above his head height, and area behind those sight is covered by the armor block. So no weakness any where and you are posting a wrong 3D model.

look at the depth of the armor block above the tc's head in the blue mango film still., it is huge. there are many dials on the right side of the armor block indicating that equal protection on all areas of ARJUN turret front with adequate LOS thickness for composite armor was factored in from the design phase itself.

 

[ersakthivel]

Gunner's head (marked with the blue rectangle in the separate turret photo on top ) is in the hull below the turret level, So the dial into which he is looking in to is actually in the hull and the yellow box seems to start at the top of the top of the hull, below the turret level.

So the slanting inner wall and the armor block above is right behind the sight.:thumb:

So what is the point?

It further proves my point that the main sight is cleary above the Tc's head being situated at the roof top in turrent front.

roof plate seems to be (100 mm not an accurate measure, but fair guess) cover about half of the sight,

and the rest is covered by armor block in the blue mango film still(look at the white inside protruding armor block inside the crew compartment behind the sight and above the tc's head.)

I wonder why still you guys can't get it!!!!!!!!,

If you want to produce a correct 3D model you can do so with the images in this page and see that for yourself.

Forever disputing in your face photographic evidence is not going to help any one.

It is simply juvenile to assume that IA which operates tank for 6 decades and CVRDE which produces tank for the past three decades can't get such a simple thing right,