Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[ersakthivel]

sigh.

of particular interest is image 2 and 3.
i marked the backing plate of the gunshield in green.

image 2 shows the gun mounting from the side

image 3 shows the thickness of the wall in front of the TC and gunner. compare the wall thickness with distance between wall and TC armrest.

image 4 shows the thickness of the connection area between gun and turret.

Arjun is wider because it has wider(and heavier) tracks. leopard tracks are 635mm wide arjun ~685mm. the hull center is about the same width.

LOL, no the TC sits directly behind the gunner, just like in a western tank:

you can see the gunners seat on the bottom right and TC seat bottom left. you can also see TC's arm guard in folded position,
in the previous picture he's resting his arm on it. gunners arm guard is slightly in front, and is hidden by the gun breech in the previous picture.

Then are you saying that the above schematic diagram in the link is wrong?
Asian Defense: India's Arjun Mk.2 Tank Revealed

It is the Tc who sits right behind the main sight. The gunner sits between the gun mantel plate and main sight.

So your 3D model was wrong.

Look where the gunner is and where the main sight is.Then why should there be an armor block before gunner?

he sits behind more than 1400 mm LOS armor.

It is the Tc who sits behind Main sight. And there are no photographs to show where the armor wall starts infront of TC.

There is a huge amount of vacant space in front of him , so that whatever LOS armor can be had there, since he sits 2500 mm back from the front mantel plate.Even if you deduct 700 mm for the main sight an amount of 1800 mm (till the back of his seat) is available for having the desired LOS armor.

main sight is located at the top close to the roof. SO any armor block there won't cramp him at all.

That was why many members here were saying from the begining that ARJUN is shorter and wider than LEO.Even Kunal who was a memeber of IA said that, STGN after a lot of argument accepted that ARJUN turret has a width of about 3100 mm.

Only you and your group of friends are oblivious to this simple fact.

What level of protection is there can not be determined without any photographic evidence.

So your dimensions on your 3D models are just wild guesses without understanding such a simple thing.

This was what I have been saying from the start that your model has some very wrong assumptions.

 

[ersakthivel]

So all the assuptions behind your 3d Model were wrong. You assumed that the turret has a width of 2.475 meters,

So you assumed that there is not enough space for the gunner besides Tc,

And seeing no armor block in front of the gunner you assumed lower LOS there.

STGN already posted as per even his pixel meausrements ARJUN turret has a width of 3100 mm, you are assuming 2500 mm , far less.

So if we add the missing 600 mm width you can as well se ARJUN will have a decent side turret protectino as well

 

[ersakthivel]

ok, i'll be taking my next vacation in Erode, see ya then T-shirt man.

On which basis you arrived at the width of 2475 mm ARJUN turret ?

You need a very long vacation indeed.

The shadow of the turret falls on the hull at the third blue line from the top.

it is the place where turret's side wall projection on the hull would fall.

The blue rectangle drawn on the TC's crew hatch cover represent s the true length of the hatch cover .

This rectangle is projected in the correct plane on the hull ,

found out by the downwards projection of the line joining the two hatch covers on the turret top,
to the top of the hull.

This is the perspective drawing as far as I know,

Width over track is 3540 mm.


About half of the crew hatch is enclosed between the red line an the blue line. The red line indicates the track width border of 3540 mm

That is about 0.50x550 mm=220 mm
3540-(220x2=440 mm)= 3140 mm is the width of the ARJUN turret.


So thats how I arrived at 3100 mm plus turret width and later it was confirmed by STGN too by his measurement in one of the photos.

 

[militarysta]

Again about armour block LOS behin main sight:



It's ovbious that deep of amoru block (LOS) in front of the gunner is equal or smaller then recoil system in gun (marked on red) it's really simple to notice this.
It's obvious that behind main sight Arjun have amoust no armour -40cm is max, propably far less. No idea why somebody made sucht project. It's far from Leopard-2 not even mentioned about rest of the tanks.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

From pictures, the green slab is the slab on image 5, It also count besides the blue marked below..

Again about armour block LOS behin main sight:

 

[militarysta]

From pictures, the green slab is the slab on image 5, [/QUOTE]

No, it's defiently not from very simple two resons:
a) in "green slab" there is no gap for coaxial MG
b) in "green slab" there is no gap for reserve sight

Sorry but all evidences shown that what I posted: gun mantled mask in Arjun tank have nothing common whit those " green slab" it's just holder for static exposition, it's clearly couse on factory photo (those posted bu Dejawolf) we can see gun without this, and without gun mantled mask.
What whorse - we can compare interior photo whit gunner placment, gun placment, armour block and those factory gun photot. And it's seems that armour on front of the gunner is thick as gun recioil system. What is theribble weak spot becouse LOS thickenss that place just must be lower then 400mm :-/ While right (loader) side have strong thick armour, then lef side (gunner and TC) have those damm main sight whit only max 400mm LOS armour behind it. I have no idea why sombody devloped this in that way. There is just no place to put there thick armor block. What whorse -in Leo-2A4 LOS left and right turret is the same (armour) so 840mm and 840mm but whit gap for main sight(so whole LOS 1100mm), but after "doghouse" EMES-15 is "only" 650mm LOS armour block - on fornt of the TC. Under this block is siting gunner.
On Arjun it's developed completly diffrent.

 

[Dejawolf]

So all the assuptions behind your 3d Model were wrong. You assumed that the turret has a width of 2.475 meters,

So you assumed that there is not enough space for the gunner besides Tc,

And seeing no armor block in front of the gunner you assumed lower LOS there.

STGN already posted as per even his pixel meausrements ARJUN turret has a width of 3100 mm, you are assuming 2500 mm , far less.

So if we add the missing 600 mm width you can as well se ARJUN will have a decent side turret protectino as well

are you blind? 2475mm is the width of the LEOPARD 2A4 TURRET.

 

[ersakthivel]

are you blind? 2475mm is the width of the LEOPARD 2A4 TURRET.

I am not blind. We don't need to post about this any further in a knee jerk manner.tit for tat reply is not needed in a technical debate.

other than pixel measurements , if you have any credible source for ARJUN turret width , post. Otherwise don't bother.

 

[ersakthivel]

From pictures, the green slab is the slab on image 5, It also count besides the blue marked below..

You are correct Kunal. The length of the higher diameter gun barrel in front of the plate you marked with green line is exactly same as that of the extra dia gun barrel length protruding from the mantlet plate on the turret pictures 1,2 and 5.

SInce that plate is placed more than 500 mm inside the ARJUN turret gun cavity , there must be another plate more than 500 mm infront of that white (marked around with by green by lines by you in pic1) in pic 1. And the position of the other plate roughly corresponds to the green front plate in the picture 5

 

[ersakthivel]

The above is the photo of the leo Tc seat posted here.

Just look at the distance between the gun and and Tc's seat in this photo,

and compare it to

the distance between the gun and Tc in the photo- no-2 in the above post 4809,

Any one can understand why there is no no need for heavy armor block infront of the gunner in ARJUN ,

and

Why there is a need for a heavy armor block in frot of the gunner in LEO,

Because in LEO both the Gunner and TC sit directly behind the main sight one behind one.

But in ARJUN the gunner sits at an offset position slightly left of the Tc, right behind the wide gun mantlet plate and main sight.

The Tc in contrast sits right behind the main sight and we don' t know there is any armor block in front of him as that place was not covered in any photo.

So taking narrow turret Leo as a model for estimating LOS thickness behind the main sight in ARJUN will lead to errors.

 

[Dejawolf]

I am not blind. We don't need to post about this any further in a knee jerk manner.tit for tat reply is not needed in a technical debate.

other than pixel measurements , if you have any credible source for ARJUN turret width , post. Otherwise don't bother.

then how could you not see the width was for the leopard turret? if you couldn't see that the width was for the leopard, how am i supposed to believe you are able to correctly assess the position of the gunner, or the shape of the gunshield, or pretty much everything you post here? everything you say and do is wrong.
you don't know that the TC seat is always higher than the gunners seat in all tanks with a 4-man crew, going all the way back to WW2, you couldn't tell the difference between tank-ex and arjun, you always make wrong assertions, and when they are proven wrong you attempt to divert attention to something else as if nothing happened. that's why i hate debating with you.
that you're wrong about the gun is obvious to everyone here, so why you and kunal insist that the green lump is the gunshield is beyond me.
i can see only 2 reasons. 1: you have very poor eyesight 2: you're trolling.

 

[ersakthivel]

then how could you not see the width was for the leopard turret? if you couldn't see that the width was for the leopard, how am i supposed to believe you are able to correctly assess the position of the gunner, or the shape of the gunshield, or pretty much everything you post here? everything you say and do is wrong.
you don't know that the TC seat is always higher than the gunners seat in all tanks with a 4-man crew, going all the way back to WW2, you couldn't tell the difference between tank-ex and arjun, you always make wrong assertions, and when they are proven wrong you attempt to divert attention to something else as if nothing happened. that's why i hate debating with you.
that you're wrong about the gun is obvious to everyone here, so why you and kunal insist that the green lump is the gunshield is beyond me.
i can see only 2 reasons. 1: you have very poor eyesight 2: you're trolling.

That model popped up when I googled 3D models fro ARJUn yesterday, But for a long time your were saying ARJUN turret width is 2500 mm at the start, So I thought it was your 3D model on aRJUN .

So no need to examine who is deaf, dumb and blind

1. In post -4803 I posted the method I with which I arrived at a turret width of 3100 mm. There is noway you can dispute that as it was already discussed here before to death. And STGN also posted a pixel measurement which showed 3100 mm turret width at the crew hatch's place.

2. So in your idea what is the leo's turret width? ARJUN's turret width? ANd post the proof for your calculation for arriving at turret width .

3. Tc's seat is always above gunner's seat in all tanks.

See the post -4810

Same in ARJUN. In addition to that in ARJUN the gunner's seat is below the Tc's seat and a bit left of Tc's seat as well because the wider turret width of ARJUN provides space there , unlike LEO is my opinion from seeing the photos and true schematics from other sites, unlike your dimensionless 3D models.

If you clarify the above points the doubts will be cleared , no point in trying to offend the other guy, I am reporting each and every one of your offending post, unlike yesterday.

After I posted the image in 4803 only you started making calculations according to my directions as you have done below(that too marking 330 mm at the place where I marked 200 odd mm.)

AFAIK there must be some gap between the side skirts and track, taking that into account I marked 250 mm. you have marked it as 330 mm exactly at the inner edge of the side skirts.

The above was your first true technical attempt at trying to find ARJUN turret width after you assumed some dimensions and made your 3D model.

So width over side skirts is 3540 mm,

The turret out side wall is 250 mm away from the track edge ,

SO the width of the turret is 3540 mm-(2X250 mm)= 3040 mm rough calculation , after seeing this STGN also made a post with pixel measurement on photo showing the turret to be 3100 mm width at the same place,

So who is blind and incompetent?

 

[Dejawolf]

You are correct Kunal. The length of the higher diameter gun barrel in front of the plate you marked with green line is exactly same as that of the extra dia gun barrel length protruding from the mantlet plate on the turret pictures 1,2 and 5.

SInce that plate is placed more than 500 mm inside the ARJUN turret gun cavity , there must be another plate more than 500 mm infront of that white (marked around with by green by lines by you in pic1) in pic 1. And the position of the other plate roughly corresponds to the green front plate in the picture 5

it's this obvious you are wrong, and you're still trying to row things in land... the white plate is the point where the gun pivots.
there's no other tank in the world with the configuration you're talking about. NONE. on every single tank i have ever seen, there's the gun backing plate where the gun pivots, and a gunshield in front. on some older tanks, the gunshield and cradle are merged.

leopard 2A4 gun:

Abrams gun:

leopard 1:

i've spent 1/3 of MY LIFE studying tanks, and you really think you know better than me, how a tank works?

Arjun pivot connection:

this is reality. FACE IT.

 

[ersakthivel]

it's this obvious you are wrong, and you're still trying to row things in land... the white plate is the point where the gun pivots.
there's no other tank in the world with the configuration you're talking about. NONE. on every single tank i have ever seen, there's the gun backing plate where the gun pivots, and a gunshield in front. on some older tanks, the gunshield and cradle are merged.

leopard 2A4 gun:

No one disputes that.

Abrams gun:

leopard 1:

i've spent 1/3 of MY LIFE studying tanks, and you really think you know better than me, how a tank works?

Arjun pivot connection:

this is reality. FACE IT.

The gun pivot is placed a bit inside the gun cavity and there is a plate above it is what Kunal is saying, If you have any doubt just look at the shape of the plate behind the man in white shirt and the shape of the plate on the separate gun photo.

The arrangement is also shown in the leopard 1 cutaway you posted as well.

 

[LurkerBaba]

@Dejawolf , @Damian please add @ersakthivel to your ignore lists and vice versa

 

[Twinblade]

it's this obvious you are wrong, and you're still trying to row things in land... the white plate is the point where the gun pivots.
there's no other tank in the world with the configuration you're talking about. NONE. on every single tank i have ever seen, there's the gun backing plate where the gun pivots, and a gunshield in front. on some older tanks, the gunshield and cradle are merged.

leopard 2A4 gun:

Abrams gun:

leopard 1:

i've spent 1/3 of MY LIFE studying tanks, and you really think you know better than me, how a tank works?

Arjun pivot connection:

this is reality. FACE IT.

There is a provision for adding armor block in front of gun pivot. In the left pic second row you can see the protruding tube for sight that ends on the surface as seen on the finished model on the right pic first row.

 

[Dejawolf]

That model popped up when I googled 3D models fro ARJUn yesterday, But for a long time your were saying ARJUN turret width is 2500 mm at the start, So I thought it was your 3D model on aRJUN .

So no need to examine who is deaf, dumb and blind

1. In post -4803 I posted the method I with which I arrived at a turret width of 3100 mm. There is noway you can dispute that as it was already discussed here before to death. And STGN also posted a pixel measurement which showed 3100 mm turret width at the crew hatch's place.

my measure was 2850mm width at the front extending to 2950mm towards the center,you can see it in the quick model i hashed together in an afternoon. usually i spend 2-3 months on a model to make it properly, but i figured it wouldn't be worth it to prove you wrong.

2. So in your idea what is the leo's turret width? ARJUN's turret width? ANd post the proof for your calculation for arriving at turret width .

stop asking stupid questions, the measures are in the picture you already posted.

3. Tc's seat is always above gunner's seat in all tanks.

See the post -4810

Same in ARJUN. In addition to that in ARJUN the gunner's seat is below the Tc's seat and a bit left of Tc's seat as well because the wider turret width of ARJUN provides space there , unlike LEO is my opinion from seeing the photos and true schematics from other sites, unlike your dimensionless 3D models.

"a bit left" what is that, 2-3cm? it does not help at all. center hull is 2 meters, and TC/gunner/loader all need to have their legs down in the hull. they are seated in tandem, one behind the other. gun breech is at least 47cm wide, otherwise it'll rupture when it's fired.
oh and can you stop saying "dimensionless model" unless you want to piss me off again?

After I posted the image in 4803 only you started making calculations according to my directions as you have done below(that too marking 330 mm at the place where I marked 200 odd mm.)

AFAIK there must be some gap between the side skirts and track, taking that into account I marked 250 mm. you have marked it as 330 mm exactly at the inner edge of the side skirts.

The above was your first true technical attempt at trying to find ARJUN turret width after you assumed some dimensions and made your 3D model.

after the 500 or so wrong attempts you made? midget head measures, midget soldiers with tiny feet, and all sorts of odd crazyness?
i don't need to use your old-fashioned ershaktivel-approved techniques to arrive at decently accurate dimensions. apparently you are incapable of thinking in anything but numbers.

 

[Dejawolf]

The gun pivot is placed a bit inside the gun cavity and there is a plate above it is what Kunal is saying, If you have any doubt just look at the shape of the plate behind the man in white shirt and the shape of the plate on the separate gun photo.

The arrangement is also shown in the leopard 1 cutaway you posted as well.

so you agree with what me, damian and militarista have said then, and that your previous assertions were wrong.
great. this would have been so much easier if you had said so 2000 or so posts earlier.
official resistance on gunshield is 650mm vs KE 700mm vs HEAT.

 

[Dejawolf]

There is a provision for adding armor block in front of gun pivot. In the left pic second row you can see the protruding tube for sight that ends on the surface as seen on the finished model on the right pic first row.

that armour block was already taken into consideration when we estimated the front turret thickness on Arjun.
ershaktivel claimed the block was over 1.4 meter thick which is ludicrous.

 

[ersakthivel]

so you agree with what me, damian and militarista have said then, and that your previous assertions were wrong.
great. this would have been so much easier if you had said so 2000 or so posts earlier.
official resistance on gunshield is 650mm vs KE 700mm vs HEAT.

Who agreed with you ? there are armor plates before pivot plate. that was what Kunal posted and agreed, It was none of your business, I know the credibility of the measurements you post.

You still haven't answered with what calculations you arrived at the width for ARJUN turret and you never will,

Because I know damn well , that only after I posted the picture you realized that your friends were wrong quoting 2500 to 2700 mm for turret width, it was a long argument all over the ARJUN vsT-90 thread and in this thread as well.

I just tried to reason by using the size of the head as a comparison ratio and somebody jumped in with different measurements,

Then I used AJAI SHUKLA's shoes on the tank and you said a straightened shoe measures 450 mm in length.

SO I JUST DID An elementary PERSPECTIVE PROJECTION , after which you kept quiet about ARJUN turret width.

The leopard cutaway you posted also has plates in front of the pivot plate.It IS YOU WHO IS STILL REFUSING ACCEPT THAT ARE ARMOR PLATES IN FRONT OF THAT PIVOT PLATE as well.