Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[Damian]

But i wanted to Ask @militarysta Sir how will the isreali IWI rounds both 125mm and 120mm MK.2 round fare against NII Stali era or lets say Knife Duplet {I Know its Banned}

"Knife" and "Dublet" works on a very different principle that other typs of ERA, instead of explosive material between steel plates, both use linear shaped charges.

Which means that this type of ERA literally cuts both APFSDS penetrators as well as RPG, ATGM and HEAT shaped charge jets in to smaller pieces, easier to stop by the main armor.

(BM44 and OFL120F1 the French version of German DM43)

Sometimes effectiveness of "Knife"/"Dublet" is so big that projectile does not penetrate even outerlayer of armor, here we have two hits, one was performed at unprotected part of armor plate, and second hit was in a place protected by "Knife".

"Knife" and "Duplet" are fully modular, can be made in sizes required by customer, an can completely replaces other types of ERA like "Kontakt-5".

And off topic "my sources" tells me India's acquisition of Rafael spike series missiles (which by the way u Polish guys also operate) was made keeping "Pakistan "Knife' ERA Know How from Ukraine" in mind during its trials..... Surely u Polish or Isrealis must know the density of that era during ur trials and lets say Spike missiles Penetration capability. Weather it was able to penetrate successfully or not........What i do know that IWI M338 and M339 "can" penetrate along with APAM 120mm rounds............

ERA have very low density, but contrary to many other types of protection, it have a very high protection capabilities compared to it's low density and weight.

As for Spike, it might be immposible for Spike to penetrate armor protected by "Knife" and "Duplet", however the advantage of this ATGM is that you can guide it directly in to a specific spot on a vehicle or other target, for example hatch, that is not well protected.

As for Israeli 120mm APFSDS, I would not count that it is very capable, this type of ammunition represents a world wide standards and are below capabilities of DM53, DM63, M829A2, M829A3 and soon fielded M829A4.

APAM and Kalanit are a different story, and are not ammunition designed to defeat ERA, although their explosion might damage and make ineffective large part of ERA modules.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

That could lead to Confusion for most if certification system are different for different institute of same organization, Its not logical..

The images are the same so does the dimensions but the material of different prototypes have different amount of composition of tungsten and other alloys..

could be 350 mm average penetration. Into 60° sloped armour (where APFSDS can penetrate more armour) this might be 400 to 425 mm penetration.The photo used in this image is atleast identical to the photo used on the DRDO websites and the values are identical to that of the DRDO website and the values of the Indian Ordnance Factories websites - which implies that the ammunition is the same.

 

[ersakthivel]

Er, I read an earlier statement by @ersakthivel about how the Arjun tank had a special sabot round capable of taking down a Merkava at 2km, but the most recent APFSDS round shown in the DRDO exhibit only displays 300mm RHAe penetration at 2km. Why?

I read an earlier statement by @ersakthivel about how the Arjun tank had a special sabot round capable of taking down a Merkava at 2km

Where did I post such a statement?New rounds will be developed for arjun once more in number orders will be given is what I posted.

 

[methos]

The images are the same so does the dimensions but the material of different prototypes have different amount of composition of tungsten and other alloys..

But the weight stayed the same? How's that possible? Did they reduce the sabot density and increase the penetrator's density?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Then your theory is correct..

But the weight stayed the same? How's that possible? Did they reduce the sabot density and increase the penetrator's density?

 

[militarysta]

Well This is some bad news for IA,

But i wanted to Ask @militarysta Sir how will the isreali IMI rounds offered to India to use with Arjun Rifled guns and t-series tanks ie:- both 125mm and 120mm MK.2 round fare against NII Stali era or lets say Knife Duplet {I Know its Banned}
Weather it was able to penetrate successfully or not........What i do know that IMI M338 and M339 "can" penetrate along with APAM 120mm rounds............

Well, so, rifled guns today are not able to use modern APFSDS penetrator -due to many resons. Maybe there is a way to put "normal" western penetrator into 120mm rifted catrige, but now -there is no good rifted ammo -in fact indian 120mm ammo is obsloate :/

Indian 125mm APFSDS ammo: 3BM42 and Israeli CL Mk.2 (in Poland -PRONIT) are not able to perforate modern armour behind ERA. Both have simple monoblock penetrator (in BM42 two part).

The problem is this stupid rifted gun for Arjun :-/ They are very good APFSDS round able to overpas even modern ERA:

Germany:
DM53
DM63
maybe in some very very small way DM43

Isaeli:
CL M338

USA:
M829A2
M829A3
M829A4
KWA-A2

France:
OLF-F2 (propably)

UK:
? no idea

Russia:
Sniwiec-1 and Åšniwiec-2 (Lead-1 or Lead-2)

But there is no APFSDS able to overcome ERA made for rifted guns.

 

[methos]

But there is no APFSDS able to overcome ERA made for rifted guns.

The British CHARM-1 and CHARM-3 APFSDS have a sectioned nose which might be useful against older ERA:

 

[militarysta]

The British CHARM-1 and CHARM-3 APFSDS have a sectioned nose which might be useful against older ERA:

Indeed whole L is rather small, but those " sectioned nose" looks like countr-ERA solution. Thanks for notice this.


So there is hope for Indian 120mm rifted guns -buy CHARM-1 and CHARM-3 APFSDS from UK. Of ourse UK will not sell them, but...

 

[Damian]

CHARM 1 and CHARM 3 can't be used in ARDE gun installed in Arjun without packing penetrators in to the new sabot and propelant charge case. Not to mentions that these types of ammunition are not manufactured anymore.

 

[Damian]

As far as I know British MoD would rather want to keep all ammunition that was left for theirselfs, at least until the situation with MLU for Challenger 2's won't be clear... eventually they might come back to the idea of smoothbore gun and Challenger 2 redesign.

 

[ersakthivel]

Well, so, rifled guns today are not able to use modern APFSDS penetrator -due to many resons. Maybe there is a way to put "normal" western penetrator into 120mm rifted catrige, but now -there is no good rifted ammo -in fact indian 120mm ammo is obsloate :/

Indian 125mm APFSDS ammo: 3BM42 and Israeli CL Mk.2 (in Poland -PRONIT) are not able to perforate modern armour behind ERA. Both have simple monoblock penetrator (in BM42 two part).

The problem is this stupid rifted gun for Arjun :-/ They are very good APFSDS round able to overpas even modern ERA:

Germany:
DM53
DM63
maybe in some very very small way DM43

Isaeli:
CL M338

USA:
M829A2
M829A3
M829A4
KWA-A2

France:
OLF-F2 (propably)

UK:
? no idea

Russia:
Sniwiec-1 and Åšniwiec-2 (Lead-1 or Lead-2)

But there is no APFSDS able to overcome ERA made for rifted guns.

See heavy resource consuming ammo development for just 124 arjuns is not a possibility.once large scale inductions take place then only will ammo development can take place.

 

[Archer]

Lets be clear here. All this talk of a magical israeli contribution to arjun is just hype and innuendo. The truth is more prosaic. First, unlike the academic armchair debate of the rifled gun being this or that, the Indian Army evaluators firmly disagree.

Note:

The Arjun's 120mm gun with the FSAPDS (Fin Stabilised Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot) and Hash ammunition, is excellent.

Its firepower is tremendous. Particularly on the move, its firepower is very accurate and good.

This from the former vice chief of army staff involved with Arjun trials:
Bharat Rakshak :: Land Forces Site - Arjun Experiment

The Arjun ammunition though is legacy 1980s - the same as was originally designed then and put into production in the 90s. There was no incentive to keep developing new round when the tank was yet to clear series production, With MK1 ordered and MK2 in trials, better rounds are on the way. Point simply put - there is no incentive for India to change the gun, it works, is accurate and there is no dearth of manufacturers willing to work with India for better ammo. Case in point, when India asked for a new missile, the Israelis put up the Lahat. This because the T90s unique round was the Refleks/INVAR.

 

[Archer]

See heavy resource consuming ammo development for just 124 arjuns is not a possibility.once large scale inductions take place then only will ammo development can take place.

Actually MK2 ammo development has already been cleared with trials underway. The DRDO had better tech developed for the 125mm FSAPDS in trials & will use that for the 120mm now. If not for the Armys ham handed efforts, even the 125mm round would have been developed further with a MK3 in series production (as versus development/trials) but they were sitting pretty hoping that Israeli supplies of their 125mm rounds would continue (IMI was providing the penetrator blanks and OFB was to machine them into FSAPDS with Indian manufactured CCC and propellant/igniter/stubs). As could be expected even that ran into problems and currently the Army is importing BM-42s from Russia (60K rounds) while running after DRDO to develop 125mm rounds asap, beyond the MK2 they currently have (which is still a gen ahead of the MK1 variant of the 120mm Arjun round).

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I assume new round is 600mm@2000ms, DRDO already produced penetrators of 500mm@2000ms..

I also waiting to see the induction of CL-20 based HEAT round..

 

[militarysta]

The Arjun's 120mm gun with the FSAPDS (Fin Stabilised Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot) and Hash ammunition, is excellent.
(...)
Its firepower is tremendous. Particularly on the move, its firepower is very accurate and good.
[/i]


This from the former vice chief of army staff involved with Arjun trials:
Bharat Rakshak :: Land Forces Site - Arjun Experiment

And this is typical stupid talk to defend homland Industry. Amunition for Arjun is "excellent"? In compare to what -125mm 3BM22, 3BM15 -maybe in this case is indeed "excellent". Compare known photos Arjun FSAPDS whit other 125 and 120mm modern (lets say since 1990) APFSDS. Avaible for Indian Arjun ammo now is joke. Sorry.

Just check L ratio.


Part about accurate is the same interesting (lets say to be gentle) - it can be "excellent" in compare to the T-72M1 Aleya whit obsolate stabilisation mehanism, or erly T-90S when still not ver accurate mehanism was placed.
In fact even T-72BA whit new "Jasmine" stabilisation (~1999 Russia) have stabilisation error values twice worse then Leopard-2 whit WNA-H22 (1979). So yes, Indian army guys can be "dazzled" by something what is standard in NATO since erly 1980s. If Indian Army used only T-72 and erly T-90 "as modern" FCS and stabilisation then indeed andy other modern system can by takan as "tremendous" "excellent" ba bla bla.

The Arjun ammunition though is legacy 1980s - the same as was originally designed then and put into production in the 90s. There was no incentive to keep developing new round when the tank was yet to clear series production,

Yes, becouse this is joke on middle 1970's level:

With MK1 ordered and MK2 in trials, better rounds are on the way.

I have that hope that You are not writing about another good joke:

Becouse this round is again funny.

Actually MK2 ammo development has already been cleared with trials underway. The DRDO had better tech developed for the 125mm FSAPDS in trials & will use that for the 120mm now. If not for the Armys ham handed efforts, even the 125mm round would have been developed further with a MK3 in series production (as versus development/trials) but they were sitting pretty hoping that Israeli supplies of their 125mm rounds would continue (IMI was providing the penetrator blanks and OFB was to machine them into FSAPDS with Indian manufactured CCC and propellant/igniter/stubs). As could be expected even that ran into problems and currently the Army is importing BM-42s from Russia (60K rounds) while running after DRDO to develop 125mm rounds asap, beyond the MK2 they currently have (which is still a gen ahead of the MK1 variant of the 120mm Arjun round). .

There is no avaible photo of Indian ammo (pototype, demos, anything) better then erly 1980s' level in 120mm case. About 125mm ammo:

If this all then still it's not far better then 3BM42.

 

[ersakthivel]

And this is typical stupid talk to defend homland Industry. Amunition for Arjun is "excellent"? In compare to what -125mm 3BM22, 3BM15 -maybe in this case is indeed "excellent". Compare known photos Arjun FSAPDS whit other 125 and 120mm modern (lets say since 1990) APFSDS. Avaible for Indian Arjun ammo now is joke. Sorry.

Just check L ratio.


Part about accurate is the same interesting (lets say to be gentle) - it can be "excellent" in compare to the T-72M1 Aleya whit obsolate stabilisation mehanism, or erly T-90S when still not ver accurate mehanism was placed.
In fact even T-72BA whit new "Jasmine" stabilisation (~1999 Russia) have stabilisation error values twice worse then Leopard-2 whit WNA-H22 (1979). So yes, Indian army guys can be "dazzled" by something what is standard in NATO since erly 1980s. If Indian Army used only T-72 and erly T-90 "as modern" FCS and stabilisation then indeed andy other modern system can by takan as "tremendous" "excellent" ba bla bla.


Yes, becouse this is joke on middle 1970's level:




I have that hope that You are not writing about another good joke:

Becouse this round is again funny.



There is no avaible photo of Indian ammo (pototype, demos, anything) better then erly 1980s' level in 120mm case. About 125mm ammo:

If this all then still it's not far better then 3BM42.

Kunal has posted many times that better ammo is being developed.And ARCHEr too posted on that ,haven't you read?

 

[militarysta]

Kunal has posted many times that better ammo is being developed.And ARCHEr too posted on that ,haven't you read?

Yes and it was funny -espacialy in part about cooperation whit Israeli:
but they were sitting pretty hoping that Israeli supplies of their 125mm rounds would continue (IMI was providing the penetrator blanks and OFB was to machine them into FSAPDS with Indian manufactured CCC and propellant/igniter/stubs)
You know in Poland during PT-91 program we made the same but decade erlyier then India. And IMI haven't really good APFSDS. Those "penetrator" is from CL Mk.2 and it's the same as in polish PRONIT rounds:

http://www.bumar.com/dywizje_flash/admin/store/images/image-1317723858-link.pdf
http://www.bumar.com/dywizje_flash/admin/store/images/image-1317723969-link.pdf
Made by IMI penetrator had a factory defect -1/5 of them don't keept penetration standards in -20 below zero (nothing extraordinery in Poland). After deliverd 1000-1200 penetration cooperatoin whit IMI was stopped. Now Poland import rods form Germany and made in Poland. Even devloped program is going about segmented penetration in 125mm rounds:

So fist problem -good luck whit IMI Their qualiti is the same as Russian ones. Second problem - those IMI penetrators for 125mm are nothing special. In Poland where tested IMI penetrators, German penetrators (DM33A1), etc. And possible is achive 520-540mm RHA on 2000m for those Israeli ones. And those value is to small to overcome frontal (+/-30. from the longitiudal axis) protection of most of the tanks: T-80U, T-90SA, etc. So India is going to buy obsolate penetrators form Israeli. For guys in IMI it will be deal of the year - sell obsolate in 2013 technology. Third problem (next after those to small penetration values) is fact that those (avaible for India) penetrator are...obsolate - they are monoblock (like DM33A1, Cl Mk.2, M332) not segmented (like DM53, DM63, M829A3, etc) to result is very weak performance against modern ERA, or even not so modern - like on pak and chineese tanks. It's not even comfirmed if those penerator from CL Mk.2 (125mm) and M332 (120mm) have special balistic cap able to overcome older ERA (Like Kontakt-5) like M829A2, KEW-A2, and propably DM43 had. Fourth problem is hidden here: Indian manufactured CCC and propellant/igniter/stubs -as I remember India was not able to made good quality 125mm ammo or T-90S yes? As I remember there was some tragic accidents in India aused by defectively designed and made amo 125mm cal.

For those resons im still standing in that what I had wrote. India haven't good ammo 120 and 125mm and in close future (~5-7 yeras) propably nothing will change.

 

[ersakthivel]

Yes and it was funny -espacialy in part about cooperation whit Israeli:
but they were sitting pretty hoping that Israeli supplies of their 125mm rounds would continue (IMI was providing the penetrator blanks and OFB was to machine them into FSAPDS with Indian manufactured CCC and propellant/igniter/stubs)
You know in Poland during PT-91 program we made the same but decade erlyier then India. And IMI haven't really good APFSDS. Those "penetrator" is from CL Mk.2 and it's the same as in polish PRONIT rounds:

http://www.bumar.com/dywizje_flash/admin/store/images/image-1317723858-link.pdf
http://www.bumar.com/dywizje_flash/admin/store/images/image-1317723969-link.pdf
Made by IMI penetrator had a factory defect -1/5 of them don't keept penetration standards in -20 below zero (nothing extraordinery in Poland). After deliverd 1000-1200 penetration cooperatoin whit IMI was stopped. Now Poland import rods form Germany and made in Poland. Even devloped program is going about segmented penetration in 125mm rounds:

So fist problem -good luck whit IMI Their qualiti is the same as Russian ones. Second problem - those IMI penetrators for 125mm are nothing special. In Poland where tested IMI penetrators, German penetrators (DM33A1), etc. And possible is achive 520-540mm RHA on 2000m for those Israeli ones. And those value is to small to overcome frontal (+/-30. from the longitiudal axis) protection of most of the tanks: T-80U, T-90SA, etc. So India is going to buy obsolate penetrators form Israeli. For guys in IMI it will be deal of the year - sell obsolate in 2013 technology. Third problem (next after those to small penetration values) is fact that those (avaible for India) penetrator are...obsolate - they are monoblock (like DM33A1, Cl Mk.2, M332) not segmented (like DM53, DM63, M829A3, etc) to result is very weak performance against modern ERA, or even not so modern - like on pak and chineese tanks. It's not even comfirmed if those penerator from CL Mk.2 (125mm) and M332 (120mm) have special balistic cap able to overcome older ERA (Like Kontakt-5) like M829A2, KEW-A2, and propably DM43 had. Fourth problem is hidden here: Indian manufactured CCC and propellant/igniter/stubs -as I remember India was not able to made good quality 125mm ammo or T-90S yes? As I remember there was some tragic accidents in India aused by defectively designed and made amo 125mm cal.

For those resons im still standing in that what I had wrote. India haven't good ammo 120 and 125mm and in close future (~5-7 yeras) propably nothing will change.

Do you know which country invented the APFSD round concept? POLAND?

 

[militarysta]

Do you know which country invented the APFSD round concept? POLAND?

And in what way this is connected whit my post?
I gave four resons why Israeli direction will not help for India. And You shoud go in that way not rubbish post about "who invented" bla bla bla.

 

[Damian]

Do you know which country invented the APFSD round concept? POLAND?

UK... but what the hell this have to what Militarysta wrote?

You do not have anything valuable to say, so you started to troll? Derail topics and insult other nations?