Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[p2prada]

@ Damian

You are worried that Paki planes and missiles will take out our Ammunition factories and Arjun tank will
have no ammunition

No they cant Because Our ammunition factories are located FAR deep inside our territory

Paki planes and missiles will be tasked to stop our Indian army and also they will go after our forward air bases

We know that But that DOES NOT stop us from forward deployment of both our Army and Air force

We also KNOW the importance of logistics in war

So we keep huge amounts of ammunition including what we call War wastage reserves

Infact some years ago there was NO place to keep Ammunition then some several hundred tonnes
of ammunition was lost in fires

Secondly are you aware of the Thousands of Rounds of Artillery shells that we fired DAILY on the Pakis
before a ceasefire came into effect

And EVERYDAY we would POUND and silence the Paki Guns into Submission

And our troops are cut off in winter because of snow , but they have several MONTHS of Ammunition

Indian Army will NEVER be short of any type of Ammunition

I am quite sure that you are not aware we don't have ammunition for our T-type tanks today. We had an indigenous round, it was so good that the Army was forced to destroy more than 1 Lakh of them(some state 1,60,000) because they were killing our own troops.

Once that was destroyed, we had to place new orders for shells from foreign countries. But what happened was because of problems with some Israeli companies, we had to blacklist IMI, a company which supplied shells to us. So, we lost a source. Russia was our only remaining source. So, the army went to them. Since there was no competition, the company which was supposed to supply shells to use jacked the prices up by 400%. Anthony said he will travel to Russia to intervene and reduce prices to international levels. We obviously don't know what happened. Then our dear general VK Singh dropped a bomb on Parliament and he also leaked a letter to the ministry where he talked about how our tanks don't have ammunition.

Guess who is to blame for this? OFB. They made thousands of faulty shells and they were all destroyed as far as back in 2006-07. The shell was of 90s level technology. What makes you think DRDO is great either? We have a Def pro here called Ray. Please read his posts about DRDO. They are a sinkhole. Any money you have they gobble it up and it is gone forever. After that you spend more money to fix the problems they created in the first place. That's our lovely DRDO. Right now, DRDO is blaming OFB of using substandard equipment in manufacturing Arjun to the point where the crew are complaining about the tank, courtesy Ajai Shukla. All this when T-90 production for the first batch is ending this year, which would mean 1000 T-90s are in service compared to barely 100+ Arjuns.

The Army is currently in need of 66000 APFSDS shells to stay above critical war reserves.

So, what if we fired thousands of shells at the Pakis? It makes no difference to our current situation today. Btw, the guns and shells are mostly imports too.

 

[pankaj nema]

@ Damian FYI

The Arjun Tank project was TAKEN up when there was a real POSSIBILITY in late 80 s
of USA selling M1 ABRAMS to Pakistan

That is why we needed a HEAVY tank to counter the Abrams

T80 is INFERIOR to T 90 and Arjun is BETTER than T 90

Pakis have ONLY 300 T 80 s We will get 2000 T 90s and atleast 500 Arjuns

You do the math

 

[Damian]

I ask you in simple laymen term

If all that stuff which i dont understand are present in Puki tank as you are telling just tell me why they failed in each and every war and why we won every time ?

In all these wars they didn't have tanks betters tha Your tanks. T-80UD can withstand allot of punishment, really. If poperly used it will be very dangerous vehicle, never underestimate enemy, never.

@ Damian FYI

The Arjun Tank project was TAKEN up when there was a real POSSIBILITY in late 80 s
of USA selling M1 ABRAMS to Pakistan

That is why we needed a HEAVY tank to counter the Abrams

T80 is INFERIOR to T 90 and Arjun is BETTER than T 90

Pakis have ONLY 300 T 80 s We will get 2000 T 90s and atleast 500 Arjuns

You do the math

I ask again, how old are You? Because You seems to not even understand what are You talking about.

How T-80 series can be inferior to T-90? T-80 when designed was completely new tank, when T-90 is based on T-72 (inferior to T-80 series BTW).

If I would need to explain You whole history of Soviet tanks development it would take weeks and I still doubt You would understood anything.

 

[Mr.Ryu]

We must urgently revamp our Defence industries and bring in Private players in all fields rather outsourcing nuts and bolts to them

 

[p2prada]

@ Damian

Arjun is like the Su30 MKI

It will blow up Paki Tin Cans and Clear the way for T 90 s

The place where it will be deployed has some very Juicy Paki targets like Multan ;Bahawalpur ;
Rahimyar Khan and Jacoa bad

All strategic centres of Pak army and airforce

T 90 and T 72s will go after GHQ Rawalpindi directly

I don't think you understand our Army. We have 3 strike corps and 5 other corps which act as defensive corps. Each corp has anywhere between 300-500 tanks. All the T-90s and some T-72s are part of the strike corps. They are the ones who will cross borders and take the fight to the enemy.

Four of the defensive corps are composed of remaining T-90s and T-72s. One corp from the South Western command controls 124 Arjun tanks along with some T-types. These guys are not meant to cross the border. So, there is no Multan, Bahawalpur etc. They are all Kutch, Thar etc. These 5 corps will fight off Pakistani intrusions and provide relief and act as reserves to the strike corps.

 

[p2prada]

I ask you in simple laymen term

If all that stuff which i dont understand are present in Puki tank as you are telling just tell me why they failed in each and every war and why we won every time ?

Unfortunately they did kill a lot of our soldiers, even if we won the wars. This time we want to be able to win wars while losing lesser soldiers in the process. It gave our defence planners sleepless nights when they bought the T-80. We did not have anything better than that at the time, this includes Arjun. That's why the T-90 was inducted so quickly.

 

[Mr.Ryu]

In all these wars they didn't have tanks betters tha Your tanks. T-80UD can withstand allot of punishment, really. If poperly used it will be very dangerous vehicle, never underestimate enemy, never.

Ok even if thats true they have roughly 250-300 T-80UD to cover their border against us do you think they will poss such a great threat to our Arjun and dont forget their Ukraine partner has also closed the door due to Russian pressure and during war i am sure they wont stand against us by helping puki.

 

[methos]

Also it has been mentioned that rifled guns produce more Kinetic energy thereby destroying the target
completely

Kinetic energy is 1/2 mass x velocity². Since all rifled gun fire projectiles being lighter and often slower it is impossible to produce more kinetic energy with rifled guns.
The Indian 120 mm APFSDS projectile (penetrator, caps, fins and sabot) have a weight of 6.8 kg and a muzzle velocity of 1,650 m/s according to the homepage of the Indian Ordnance Factory. This will be 9 MJ - the penetrator per se will only have something about 5 - 6 MJ max.
Compare this to 120 mm DM53 fired from a Rh 120 L/44 smoothbore gun - 11.64 MJ. The areal energy density will be even higher, since the diameter of DM53 is smaller. (DM53 diameter = 22 mm, Indian FSAPDS = ~27 mm).

FYI we STILL have several HUNDREDS T 55 tanks with our INFANTRY divisions

Since the T55 are still in useful condition they have been given to the INFANTRY divisions to boost their
FIREPOWER because the 105 mm gun on the T 55 packs quite a punch
and we have invested a lot of money on T 55 upgradation

You should introduce some real infantry support. The T-55 is at least two generations behind the anti-armour threats it should face in any probable conflict, is far less mobile than modern ground support plattforms and has a FCS with which you will be happy to hit a tank-sized target at ranges above 1,500 m.

Wrong. The army forced OFB to increase the EFC of the T-72's 2A46 gun from 250 to 1800 using new manufacturing techniques. The new gun is called 2A46 Maple( or 2A46M). They want to increase the life of Arjun's barrel as well. 500 is not enough when T-72 provides 1800 and T-90 provides 1200-1500.

Depends on the rounds used. Low-performance rounds (kinetically) like HE, HEAT and HESH do often only 1/3 - 1/5 as much barrel wear a firing APFSDS. 1800 APFSDS is not realistic, it is more likely to be 500 APFSDS or ~1800 low-power shots.

We will NEVER ask Poland for any arms or ammunition in case of a war

Given the fact that only a very small percentage of all Indian arms/equipment can reach modern international level and that the Poles have produced quite some things India actually could need, it is not a good idea to say that.

 

[Mr.Ryu]

Unfortunately they did kill a lot of our soldiers, even if we won the wars. This time we want to be able to win wars while losing lesser soldiers in the process. It gave our defence planners sleepless nights when they bought the T-80. We did not have anything better than that at the time, this includes Arjun. That's why the T-90 was inducted so quickly.

Bro which war ??

They got it only by 1990's right ? ru talking about Kargil ?? if so did Puki army directly used Tanks to attack our soldiers ??

 

[p2prada]

Ok even if thats true they have roughly 250-300 T-80UD to cover their border against us do you think they will poss such a great threat to our Arjun and dont forget their Ukraine partner has also closed the door due to Russian pressure and during war i am sure they wont stand against us by helping puki.

The Ukranians don't give a fvck about the Russians. They are supplying engines for their Al Khalid, perhaps even ammo which is currently better than Russian stuff, if they are exporting their newest stuff.

We have to start buying from them.

 

[Damian]

Ok even if thats true they have roughly 250-300 T-80UD to cover their border against us do you think they will poss such a great threat to our Arjun and dont forget their Ukraine partner has also closed the door due to Russian pressure and during war i am sure they wont stand against us by helping puki.

They got 380 T-80UD/Object 478BE, these are preatty high numbers You know. And as far as I know, Ukraine don't even concern about Russians complains. It's funny that not many people knows about "holly war" between Kharkiv where is placed KMDB and Nizhny Tagil where UVZ is placed.

Belive me, Russians can say many things, Ukrainians won't bother and if Pakistanis will have money, KMDB with a big smile in it's "face" will give them more T-80UD's that were left in UA magazines or build for them T-84M Oplot.

 

[Mr.Ryu]

The Ukrainians don't give a fvck about the Russians. They are supplying engines for their Al Khalid, perhaps even ammo which is currently better than Russian stuff, if they are exporting their newest stuff.

We have to start buying from them.

If so it's time we create diplomatic relation and rather stooping the supply to puki we must send them junk let RAW work it's hands

And on serious note do you really think Russia is inferior to Ukraine ?

 

[Damian]

And on serious note do you really think Russia is inferior to Ukraine ?

In tank designing? In some point Ukrainian tanks are better.

You are familiar with Soviet tank industry history?

Kharkiv design bureau was allways seen as, the most progressive one, Nizhny Tagil design Bureau and Leningrad design Bureaus were allways trying to keep up.

It was more or less succes for them, but take such a note, when Leningrad/Omsk designed T-80U, Kharkiv team taken their design and upgraded it in to most advanced Soviet tank that reached production, the T-80UD, this tank later evolved in to T-84 series.

Nizhny Tagil was close to design even better tank, designated Object 187, it was competing with other Tagil design Object 188. Unfortunetly 188 was cheaper and it was nothing more than 184 or T-72B on steroids, and this was original T-90, 187 prototypes are still rusting in Kubinka near Moscow.

However 188A1/A2 known as T-90A is using similiar turret design to 187 turret.

It is a bit complex story and it would take time to say everything about it.

 

[Mr.Ryu]

They got 380 T-80UD/Object 478BE, these are preatty high numbers You know. And as far as I know, Ukraine don't even concern about Russians complains. It's funny that not many people knows about "holly war" between Kharkiv where is placed KMDB and Nizhny Tagil where UVZ is placed.

Belive me, Russians can say many things, Ukrainians won't bother and if Pakistanis will have money, KMDB with a big smile in it's "face" will give them more T-80UD's that were left in UA magazines or build for them T-84M Oplot.

And where does a failed radical state get all the money ya right the US

The best strategy is we spend some $5-8 billion and Ukraine will dump Puki as they are only concerned upon $$$

 

[methos]

I ASK if we are in so bad shape why are the Pakis and Chinese not attacking us

There is no state of war between China/Pakistan and India. They are not your enemies at the moment, but potential and historical enemies.

Dont you think our enemies KNOW our real strength but we the common people
are unnecessarily being harangued about lack of weapons and equipment

If India is so strong, why don't they invade Pakistan/China to prevent any attack from them?

 

[Damian]

And where does a failed radical state get all the money ya right the US

I doubt that US is suppling them with such ammounts of money... PRC is more likely as it have interest in such situation, Pakistan is a big problem for US and India.

The best strategy is we spend some $5-8 billion and Ukraine will dump Puki as they are only concerned upon $$$

And You buy 500 T-84M's? I don't think so.

Ukrainians badly want to have great export sucees with their designs, and in such situation will bash Russians on PR ground even more than now, Russia will never allow this.

 

[LurkerBaba]

This is not a free for all thread. Offtopic posts beyond this point will be deleted

 

[Damian]

Why you think we dont have money ?

But i guess we dont and we invest in our own ARJUN

It is not money problem, rather political one. If India all the sudden would choose T-84 tanks instead of T-90... "holly war" would be even more intensive.

 

[LurkerBaba]

Some posts moved to http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/pakistan/17865-how-america-supports-pakistan.html and http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/defence-strategic-issues/33944-armed-forces-vs-bureaucracy.html

 

[kaustav2001]

Actually we have quite a bit of Polish stuff.

Some of our electronics were designed from Polish stuff.

Some of our companies are setting up JVs with polish companies for artillery and other equipment.

We may even be buying Polish light UCPs for the future.

Yeah...what abt. the Light tank project - "Anders". Really looking forward to it... Hope we've got it right this time around & there are no hiccups (read -- GOI banning some Polish company.)