Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[pankaj nema]

@ Damian

You are totally mistaken

Indian Army is not that desperate for tanks that it will buy sub
standard products We know what we are doing

You first need to see where exactly Arjun tank will be used . India has a very long border
where Tank battles will be fought

So we need All three T 72 T 90 and Arjun tank

T72 being the lightest is useful against China ie in Ladakh and SIkkim Maybe also in J and K where
there is suitable terrain for it

Arjun tank will be useful in the 2000 KM long desert border because of its 1400 HP engine

In desert you need more speed because the visibility is already poor

T 90 can be used in the plains of Punjab where there are river crossings

 

[pankaj nema]

@ Damian Please do not worry about our Ammunition Factories

They are FAR away from our borders And we have 40 factories

So there will never be any shortage of Tank Ammunition

 

[pmaitra]

I at least read books about them and listen people better informed than You.

What kind of books? First read and solve (1) I.E. Erodov, (2) Timoshenko & Young, and (3) Victor Zhubov & Vladimir Shalnov. Even I couldn't solve most of the former. Have you even heard of these books? You should have heard of at least two of these, given you are from Poland.

I convience normal thinking people, not pseudo patriot and fanatic like You.

You mean parrots?

 

[Damian]

Indian Army is not that desperate for tanks that it will buy sub
standard products We know what we are doing

Seeing what was made from Arjun I have big concern if anyone there know what they are doing... just look at placement and size of weak zone in Arjun turret, someone was not even capable to properly design turret on Leopard 2 turret design.

So we need All three T 72 T 90 and Arjun tank

T72 being the lightest is useful against China ie in Ladakh and SIkkim Maybe also in J and K where
there is suitable terrain for it

Arjun tank will be useful in the 2000 KM long desert border

T 90 can be used in the plains of Punjab where there are river crossings

It is earmarked

Yeah right.

T-72M1's can have upgraded protection using 4S22 Kontakt-5 ERA from T-90S, meanwhile nobody is even bothered to cheaply upgrade protection of most numerous tank in armed forces.

And there is more, IA have 3 types of tanks that use different types of most of their spare parts, I wonder how difficult it would be in war time for logistic chain to support these tanks with all neded spare parts... at least T-72M1 and T-90S can share the same ammunition...

Where all modern equiped armies are using one type or one family of tanks.

Even in Poland T-72M1's and PT-91's are allready seen as old, not needed and will be withdrawed. Leo2 will stay longer untill new one single tank type will be fielded, or more Leo2's will be purchased.

Everyone knows that. Even Russians in long term want to have one tank type, and they are scrapping all these old unnececary tanks, besides T-72 and T-90 family that share some commonalities, older anks will be scraped and T-80's will also be scraped after all spare part will be used.

Welcome to reality.

It is complete idiocy from logistics point of view to use several different types of vehicles in the same class.

What kind of books? First read and solve (1) I.E. Erodov, (2) Timoshenko & Young, and (3) Victor Zhubov & Vladimir Shalnov. Even I couldn't solve most of the former. Have you even heard of these books? You should have heard of at least two of these, given you are from Poland.

About tanks, their history, history of their research and development etc.

Methos can provide titles of good books focused in smoothbore guns development in Germany, I can provide articles with full bibliography focused in composite armors development in US and UK during and after WWII because this is my main point onf interest.

@ Damian Please do not worry about our Ammunition Factories

They are FAR away from our borders And we have 40 factories

So there will never be any shortage of Tank Ammunition

In modern warfare there is no such thing as being far away from borders. And all these 40 factories are not manufacturing tank ammunition only, besides this what means 40 factories? You think it is much? Maybe for Pakistan but not for PRC or any other superpower.

 

[pankaj nema]

@ Damian why do you bother about whether Indian army uses three tanks or one

FYI we STILL have several HUNDREDS T 55 tanks with our INFANTRY divisions

Since the T55 are still in useful condition they have been given to the INFANTRY divisions to boost their
FIREPOWER because the 105 mm gun on the T 55 packs quite a punch
and we have invested a lot of money on T 55 upgradation

 

[Damian]

Damian why do you bother about whether Indian army uses three tanks or one

Why I shouldn't? India is potential allie of west in case if Chinese politicians start to do idiotic things.

Not to mention that this is beyond any logic.

FYI we STILL have several HUNDREDS T 55 tanks with our INFANTRY divisions

And how much India spend on maintaining fleet of these outdated tanks with actual no combat wortheness?

Since the T55 are still in useful condition they have been given to the INFANTRY divisions to boost their
FIREPOWER because the 105 mm gun on the T 55 packs quite a punch
and we have invested a lot of money on T 55 upgradation

T-55 use 100mm rifled gun, not 105mm rifled gun unless India purchased British L7 105mm gun and mounted it in them.

And You see, it is idiotic, invest huge pile of money in to outdated tank that will not be capable to fight with anything more modern, even some insurgent with RPG is deadly for this vehicle over it's frontal arc... I ask why? This money could be spend on better infantry equipment in these divisions.

 

[pankaj nema]

@ Damian

India will FIGHT and WIN a Two front war against Pakistan and China BOTH

We know our enemies strength and our strength and most importantly the TERRAIN

Our weapons should be SUITABLE for our conditions

BTW after WW 2 when did POLAND fight a war

 

[plugwater]

Why the hell you lot discussing about Poland in Arjun thread ?

 

[Mr.Ryu]

@ Damian

India will FIGHT and WIN a Two front war against Pakistan and China BOTH

We know our enemies strength and our strength and most importantly the TERRAIN

Our weapons should be SUITABLE for our conditions

BTW after WW 2 when did POLAND fight a war

Ha bro why are you pulling POLAND into this we can counter him with points if we can and trust our Army and Officers.

@Damian

Mate for you kind info Arjun is not dump thats our first Tank there may be faults that will be corrected in Next built

 

[pankaj nema]

@ Damian Yes Our T 55s have 105 MM GUN

We also had anther tank called Vijayanta bought from Britain

It ALSO had 105 MM Guns AND we MADE 2000 of these tanks But Now they have been scrapped

That is why we put 105 mm gun on our T 55 and Now it will be used along with BMP 2 as an Infantry weapon

But the 105 mm gun will tear apart the Paki pill boxes

 

[Damian]

India will FIGHT and WIN a Two front war against Pakistan and China BOTH

We know our enemies strength and our strength and most importantly the TERRAIN

Our weapons should be SUITABLE for our conditions

How old are You? Because this is not how adult, concious person talk, with such arrogance and ignorance. Smart man allways at least give enemy some edge, to be prepared for worst scenario.

BTW after WW 2 when did POLAND fight a war

No full scale wars, but operations in Balkans, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and some other places were or are still conducted. Besides our Military have possibility to train and learn from best out there that have real full and assymetrhic war experiences.

But I see where You want to go.

Mate for you kind info Arjun is not dump thats our first Tank there may be faults that will be corrected in Next built

Where did I say it is a dump? Nowhere, it is still good tank, but too many mistakes were done during R&D phase. Really, these weaknesses are clearly visible, we will see if Mk2 will have redesigned turret structure to eliminate or at least minimize weak points that are unnececary, but I have big doubts if this will happen.

 

[pmaitra]

Why the hell you lot discussing about Poland in Arjun thread ?

Hang on, we are already at Poland, but still at WWII. Soon we will come to a possible NATO-USSR showdown on the banks of the Vistula and then will flow all the justification why T-90 is good. Well, it is a good tank, no doubt, but Pankaj is doing a good job explaining why we should not lose focus of Rajashtan and Punjab.

If not anything else, this thread is loaded with non-sequiturs and beatings-around-the-bush.

 

[pankaj nema]

No full scale wars, but operations in Balkans, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and some other places were or are still conducted. Besides our Military have possibility to train and learn from best out there that have real full and assymetrhic war experiences.

.

And how many soldiers and how many Tanks participated

Just read about our Indian Army exercises

The number of soldiers that participate in ONE exercise is EQUAL to YOUR entire army

Read about Operation Parakram and Operation Brasstacks

 

[p2prada]

LB,

Again, one more misleading comment from P2P.

A spinning projectile will have a less parabolic path than a non-spinning one.

This is true:

• in theory.
• in practise.

This is tue:

• for 7.62mm projectile.
• for 120mm projectile.

Methos explained how smoothbore guns compensate for the loss of accuracy, using fins, etc.. If a projectile is shot from a rifled gun and then it is converted to a smoothbore (keeping pressures and mass same), the projectile shot from the smoothbore is guaranteed to lose some of its accuracy. There is no doubt about that.

Now, for that particular instance where a smoothbore gun outperformed a rifled gun, it could be a variety of factors, but as I had said, taking away the spin from a projectile does not improve the accuracy, but reduces it.

Note that they still use rifling in assault rifles, because, it is difficult to mass produce ammunition with fin stabilisers etc., because AR bullets are tiny compared to Tank rounds.

Here is a relevant and reasonable justification, but this can get drowned in a whole lot of information, that may be correct, but totally irrelevant and does not answer the question:

Right and wrong at the same time. In the real world you won't find anybody take a shell meant for rifled gun and fire it form a smoothbore.

If you talk about basic text book difference then that's not what I am interested in. When Damian and I were arguing about why HESH is useless it is you who brought in the function of the Rifled gun. We rejected rifled gun for a whole host of other reasons which you claim to be unnecessary because, like I already said, you have one answer in your head and you want me to tell that. But I am not interested in that answer because in the real world that kind of a situation will never come up, ever.

HESH doesn't come into the picture when talking about accuracy. Technically, a HESH can be fired from both a smoothbore and a rifled gun.

Aren't you bringing it up now? When did I ever relate Rifled guns and HESH to accuracy. We are talking about everything, but you want one single point which brings no value to the real life scenario.

A shell like APFSDS travels it's entire actual distance in 1 or 2 seconds. The shell won't even complete 1/20th of a spin throughout its flight time. But HESH does multiple spins within that time. So, for any debate to take place you assume the APFSDS does not spin.

Now if you bring in reasons like if you put HESH in smoothbore and fire, it will work, blah blah, it comes into the realm of physics, textbook knowledge. That's why it is all theoretical. When actual practical designs are made, they are made to utilize the advantages of the gun it will be used for. Nobody in a real war will do as you have been mentioning. Nobody will remove fins from a APFSDS and fire from a T-90 just to prove some point.

So, coming back to the point of this entire discussion. What value have you added to the point that Nitesh made initially? He was comparing HESH to a programmable HEAT round. We were telling him HESH and the gun which fires it are obsolete. A programmable fuze is the latest in modern technology and it makes sense to import it. A smoothbore, (which cannot fire HESH in the first place because there is no round which exists for T-90 and also even if it did, nobody is genius enough to try it) with a programmable HEAT round will kill more effectively than HESH. Then Nitesh brought in the point that Arjun with HESH is better than T-90 with it's non existent capability in doing what HESH does. That's how a Rifle vs smooth comparison came up and also the reasoning behind why HEAT rounds are better. Please read the actual OPs post so there is some semblance of order while we discuss. Also, don't expect some one to keep posting the same answers when some one else has answered your questions.

Don't forget this forum does not revolve around you. We aren't posting here to win some prize.

 

[plugwater]

And how many soldiers and how many Tanks participated

Just read about our Indian Army exercises

The number of soldiers that participate in ONE exercise is EQUAL to YOUR entire army

Read about Operation Parakram and Operation Brasstacks

WTF is your point ? Why are you posting crap here ?

 

[pankaj nema]

@ Damian

Arjun tank is SOON coming out with MARK 2 version and then a MARK 3 is also planned

India is an EXPERT in making operating maintaining and IMPROVING Tanks

The T 72 that we originally bought you should COMPARE it what we MADE it Today through our efforts
and of course some imported components

India has 6500 Tanks

That is why Pakistan ALWAYS pees when our strike corps are mobilised

 

[Damian]

@Pankaj nema, You are making complete nonsence...

@P2P

HE or HEF not HEAT. And programmable fuze and system for FCS can be designed in India also. But this will not work with HESH, HESH just can't do what programmable fuze do, it have to thin shell to be capable to penetrate structures or armor. But everything was explained why, when and how.

 

[p2prada]

In close quarter combat, a rifled gun will almost always have an advantage over a smoothbore, because, imagine a smoothbore where they use fins to spins the projectile; in that case, the projectile will have to travel some distance for the fluid (air) to act on the fins and start spinning the projectile. However, by then, the projectile will have already covered much distance and lost accuracy.

The physics isn't wrong. But you are assuming the fins won't catch the air for a long time after it is fired. Wrong.

Also, Indo-Pak conflicts will be short and intense, so, unlike a long drawn war in case of an envisaged NATO-USSR conflict, life of a barrel and maintenance is not a big concern.

Wrong. The army forced OFB to increase the EFC of the T-72's 2A46 gun from 250 to 1800 using new manufacturing techniques. The new gun is called 2A46 Maple( or 2A46M). They want to increase the life of Arjun's barrel as well. 500 is not enough when T-72 provides 1800 and T-90 provides 1200-1500.

So, rifled gun was chosen for Arjun, and a good decision, from my understanding.

I had mentioned this a long time ago. When the decision to make Arjun was made, there was no technology for smoothbore in India. US, Israel and Western Europe wouldn't give it up and SU never gave technology of the 2A46 for a long time.

India only had access to the design of the L-7(Vijayanta) and D-10(T-55) which was used as a basis for the ARDE gun.

 

[pankaj nema]

WTF is your point ? Why are you posting crap here ?

Just because somebody is a " military profesional " he can call us Indians any thing

WTF if you cant counter somebody crapping about your country you can go to HELL

 

[p2prada]

Yes, because a projectile from a rifled gun has both linear and angular velocity (assuming initial velocity is the same for both smooth bore and rifled)

Again, it is wrong. There is a large amount of friction within the barrel when the shell is spinning. This is again a classic example of textbook physics where friction is completely discarded in order to prove a point. All theoretical.