Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[pmaitra]

I am glad he did.



Thing is if you don't understand what we are talking about then you won't find the answers you are looking for. You came here into the discussion with a closed mindset. You came here thinking the Arjun is better than T-90 and that's why you don't realize that you are already biased.

Let's say I don't understand what you are talking about. Do you understand what you are talking about?

Dust not magic. Dust is dust, this is not WW2. TI can pick up tanks from 8Km away. BSR can pick up tanks from 20Km. Aircraft can pick up tanks from 50Km-100Km away. Dust you can possibly see from 500m to 2Km away and they could be horses or camels running or a sand storm. Heck TI can pick up tanks through sand storms and you are thinking about WW2 tactics.

Welcome to the 21st century.

You mean 21st century dust is different? How effective is thermal imaging in the heat of Rajashtan?

More you argue, the more you expose yourself. Cool down buddy!

P.S.: I have hands on experience with FLIR, FYI.

ROFL. I give up. Be satisfied with your awesome advantage.

I am interested in an objective discussion, not putting down the Arjun given the first opportunity, or looking for opportunities to do so.

46 tons vs 60 tons and you believe T-90 will get bogged down. I can't explain anything anymore. You can keep this along with your dust.

p = f/a

Wow. I have been telling the exact opposite. Please explain why Arjun complements the T-90. Heck even one point will do.

No, I did not say Arjun complements T-90. I said both complement each other. Look back and look for my comments on urban warfare. Also, see the reports on Arjun on top attacks and side attack tests with latest T-90 rounds. I cannot go back and look but you can look for it.

What chart? Again you are comparing a 46 ton tank to a 60 ton tank. Army's own reason indicates Arjun is the tank that will bog down first. Ground pressure matters not when the tank is 15 tons heavier.

Never mind. What is Army's own reason? Cite.

Simply genius.

No, I think you should first study and understand how HESH works and what is rifling instead of shouting at the top of your voice. You and Damian had no idea how HESH functions (Methos did), and therefore, this is your reaction.

You bring in nonsense points and ask us to prove you wrong. It can't be done. We are explaining how things need to be explained so you can come to conclusions yourself. For eg: you are perfectly right with your concept of what rifling means, but you are talking about the function while we are talking about advantages and disadvantages and the reason why the disadvantages outweigh the advantages. If we start talking about the function of every anjar panjar on the tank then our families will bury us at our keyboards.

If you cannot answer, just say "I don't know!"

You have not come here with an open mind. You still think Rifling is better because it adds spin. But what we are saying is the spinning effect of projectiles is not necessary anymore because there are better shells available and more effective without having to spin them.

I don't think. It is proven.

A non-spinning projectile will follow a more parabolic path than a spinning one. I am sure you know that even smoothbore guns can outperform rifled guns, but do you know why? No, because you simply just don't know. I don't claim to know and that is what I have been asking from yesterday. If you don't have an answer, why do you even respond? You don't have to you know; and if you must respond, just say "I don't know."

Please try to understand facts. I can show a bunch of Shermans doing the same and say M1s can wait while the Shermans will clear minefields. Just because a bunch of tanks have rollers, ploughs or sweepers does not mean they suddenly become frontline tanks. All tanks need minesweeping capability because you never know where a minefield pops up.

You don't understand facts. Facts are just facts, and you memorise them. Only if you provide an explanation, I will try to understand.

Notice in the picture they are all T-55s. There are no T-72s or T-90s at the back waiting for the T-55 to clear the field. In regiments with T-90s you will find some with rollers, in regiments with T-72s you will find some with rollers, in regiments with T-55s you will find some with rollers. But in all the regimens with Arjuns you won't find any equipped with rollers because the transmission cannot handle the load. One little minefield and the entire corps will stop dead.

That was an exercise, and those were leading the column with BMP following.

My point was countering your silly comment about "showing up." What do you think this is? Halloween Party? No, we are talking about war.

Then don't believe anything we say. Like I said, you don't recognize the fact that the T-90 is a better tank. It can't be helped no matter who says what. Keep believing Arjun and T-90 are in a different class. Keep believing dust plays such an important role. Keep believing anything you want. No one can change your mind if you keep it that way.

I know why you keep bringing up that dust issue. I have made my point and I am tired of haggling on this. I know you don't like it when anything shows T-90 in poor light.

As I said, T-90 is a good tank in its own right, but I am not a blind worshipper of T-90.

The problems with T-90s get fixed real quick, unlike Arjun. Heck 20 years to get it to this stage while the T-90's problems were sorted out a long time ago.

Aaah, now that is a classic. What is "pretty quick?" Subjective.

The other part was totally unnecessary, after I had already said DRDO was late in delivering Arjun.

 

[p2prada]

If Arjun is worse than T-90 as you say, then how did Arjun beat the T-90 convincingly? Are you saying the Army fudged the trials!?

All we know about the trial is someone came up and said the Arjun showed higher accuracy and fire on the move. Nobody told us what scenarios were created, nor did they tell us what was the outcome of the trial. More importantly, the trial involved only 14 tanks from both sides which means it was more of a dog and pony show than a full fledged trial. Supposedly only 50 or so shots were fired through out the trial. Actual trials use three or four tanks and fire off thousands of shells while demonstrating thousands of kilometers of endurance.

This was never a trial. More importantly the army never asked for one, they merely humoured DRDO. They were putting the trials off because they were never interested. At one point they said they will include T-72s then they removed T-72s. Then they added more delays. DRDO wanted that PR boost. Then DRDO's PR team reported BS story with words like overwhelm, convincingly, superior etc without any factual basis.

Some scenario which was reported was a simple one, where the tank simply needs to fire 2 or 3 shots at a target. Arjun showed more accuracy than T-90 which probably showed slightly lesser. Thus Arjun became "overwhelmingly" "superior" which beat the T-90 "convincingly." Heck no competitor has pulled such BS tricks out of their hats in any of the tank competitions.

Some journo overdosed on patriotism reported BS and people lapped it up because that is what they want to hear.

 

[pmaitra]

Knowing about coruption problems in India, and fact that whole case is political, I would not be surprised if these trails were staged.

The Russians are several times more capable than DRDO to bribe IA officials.

 

[Damian]

I had no idea how HESH functions, and neither Damian, and therefore, this is your reaction.

Talk for Yourself, I written how HESH works.

When HESH hit armor it's "squash" plastic explosive material on armor and detonates, causing shockwaves and vibrations goes through monolit armor structure and this cause inne part of armor plate to ripps off and became thing called spall.

HESH rounds are thin metal shells filled with plastic explosive and a delayed-action base fuze. The plastic explosive is "squashed" against the surface of the target on impact and spreads out to form a disc or "pat" of explosive. The base fuze detonates the explosive milliseconds later, creating a shock wave that, owing to its large surface area and direct contact with the target, is transmitted through the material. In the case of the metal armor of a tank the compression shock wave is conducted through the armour to the point where it reaches the metal/air interface (the hollow crew compartment), where some of the energy is reflected as a tension wave. At the point where the compression and tension waves intersect a high stress zone is created in the metal, causing pieces of steel to be projected off the interior wall at high velocity. This fragmentation by blast wave is known as spalling, with the fragments themselves known as spall. The spall travels through the interior of the vehicle at high velocity, killing or injuring the crew, damaging equipment, and/or igniting ammunition and fuel. Unlike high explosive anti-tank (HEAT) rounds which are shaped charge ammunition, HESH shells are not specifically designed to perforate the armour of main battle tanks. HESH shells rely instead on the transmission of the shock wave through the solid steel armour.

In anti-tank warfare, spalling through mechanical stress is an intended effect of high explosive squash head (HESH) anti-tank shells and many other munitions which may not be powerful enough to pierce the armor of a target. The relatively soft warhead, containing or made of plastic explosive, flattens against the armor plating on tanks and other armored fighting vehicles (AFVs) and explodes, creating a shock wave that travels through the armor as a compression wave and is reflected at the free surface as a tensile wave breaking (tensile stress/strain fracture) the metal on the inside. The resulting spall is dangerous to crew and equipment, and may result in a partial or complete disablement of a vehicle and/or its crew. Many AFVs are equipped with spall liners inside their armor for protection.

The Russians are several times more capable than DRDO to bribe IA officials.

Russians are well aware that if such bribe would be detected they will be written on blacklist and goodbye money. For them it is far more better to be fair.

 

[pmaitra]

Talk for Yourself, I written how HESH works.

When HESH hit armor it's "squash" plastic explosive material on armor and detonates, causing shockwaves and vibrations goes through monolit armor structure and this cause inne part of armor plate to ripps off and became thing called spall.







Russians are well aware that if such bribe would be detected they will be written on blacklist and goodbye money. For them it is far more better to be fair.

That was a typo buddy. I meant "You and Damian" and not "I and Damian."

And no, you had no idea how HESH works, otherwise, you would not have made that silly comparison. I already knew how HESH works before I wrote that comment addressed to you, Nitesh, P2P. I just didn't offer an explanation because I wanted you or P2P to explain why is it ok to compare a HESH with a rifled or smoothbore gun.

But just as I had predicted, you guys came back with a whole lot of unrelated information, until Methos gave a knowlegeable answer - well, just go back and read. It's entertaining.

Edit:

Here, I knew what I was talking about before posting this.

If I may intercede here:

@Nitesh, a HESH round in never meant to penetrate, rather have a simultaneous blast on a large surface area outside the target. In case of concrete fortifications, (not apartment buildings like the picture you posted), I am not sure how effective it will be.

@Damian, you have made some good points; however, let us not forget the future while we dig deep into history. Many things are planned for a certain purpose but end up being used for a different purpose. The internet is one example. Also, it is fine to compare the gun of one tank with that of the other, but why compare T-90 and Arjun? They are not even in the same class, and they are meant to perform different roles. Politics or no politics, T-90 and Arjun complement each other, and each has its weaknesses that the other has as strength.

@P2Prada, I am myself a harsh critic of DRDO, but they need credit where it is deserved. Arjun was late, but they did deliver a good product. We cannot trash them altogether. Sure, bash DRDO for some of the silly things they do, but Arjun is not one of them, IMHO.

Also, why this comparison between HESH and smoothbore? Smoothbore simply means it is not rifled, i.e. there are no spiralling grooves inside the barrel, so the projectile will not spin. Now, there are ways to get the projectile to spin even if fired from a smoothbore. Comparing HESH and smoothbore? We are not comparing apples with apples.

 

[Damian]

That was a typo buddy. I meant "You and Damian" and not "I and Damian."

And no, you had no idea how HESH works, otherwise, you would not have made that silly comparison. I already knew how HESH works before I wrote that comment addressed to you, Nitesh, P2P. I just didn't offer an explanation because I wanted you or P2P to explain why is it ok to compare a HESH with a rifled gun.

But just as I had predicted, you guys came back with a whole lot of unrelated information, until Methos gave a knowlegeable answer - well, just go back and read. It's entertaining.

Are You kidding me? Who You are to pretend to be some sort of specialist. I gave You clear definition how HESH works, I made numerous arguments why HESH is no better than HE, HEF and other types of high explosive ammunition for smoothbore gun.

You know what, screw Yourself, I have enought of talking with close minded ignorants, that ignores anything, history, development over the world etc. etc. etc.

You know how Your attidute is called? Pseudo patriotism. Christ You are not defending interest of soldiers, their lifes etc. but interests of DRDO! This is insane, really.

 

[p2prada]

You mean 21st century dust is different? How effective is thermal imaging in the heat of Rajashtan?

More you argue, the more you expose yourself. cool down buddy!

P.S.: I have hands on experience with FLIR, FYI.

Military grade. I don't think so. They work first class in Middle East heat(where the air and ground are actually hotter) so Thar is non-sequitur.

Rajasthan isn't a volcano.

I am interested in an objective discussion, not putting down the Arjun given the first opportunity, or looking for opportunities to do so.

Not when you bring dust and ground pressure to the discussion when I am bringing superior weaponry, armour, logistics and tactics to the table.

I said both complement each other.

No they do not.

The F-15 does not complement the MKI. The Rafale does not complement the Super Hornet. The F-16 does not complement the LCA.

The LCA complements the F-15. Rafale complements the MKI. That's how the world works.

T-90 complements the BMP and Arjun complements the BMP. Complement means both join together to become perfect. A man complements a woman. A man can never complement another man. Learn what complement means.

Look back and look for my comments on urban warfare. Also, see the reports on Arjun on top attacks and side attack tests with latest T-90 rounds. I cannot go back and look but you can look for it.

Like I already replied to Mad Indian's post. Our tanks can survive the level of ammunition we already have. The T-90's gun was not tested on Arjun, only T-72 and that too with older rounds.

Arjun cannot survive a side hit even from a regular joe RPG. The armour is RHA. Unless of course they aimed carefully and hit the only part on the side which has composites.

No top attack tests were conducted because only ATGMs do that and a kill is almost always guaranteed with our current protection levels. If it was then the tank wouldn't exist.

Never mind. What Army's own reason? Cite.

It is a heavier tank, we don't need it.

No, I think you should first study and understand how HESH works and what is rifling instead of shouting at the top of your voice. You and Damian had no idea how HESH functions (Methos did), and therefore, this is your reaction.

Ok then. Cheers.

If you cannot answer, just say "I don't know!"

Of course, I dunno. Cheers.

I don't think. It is proven.

A non-spinning projectile will follow a more parabolic path than a spinning one. I am sure you know that even smoothbore guns can outperform rifled guns, but do you know why? No, because you simply just don't know. I don't claim to know and that is what I have been asking from yesterday. If you don't have an answer, why do you even respond? You don't have to you know; and if you must respond, just say "I don't know."

Yeah. It is simply very easy to say I dunno. Maybe I will use it more consistently from now on.

That was an exercise, and those were leading the column with BMP following.

Ah! That means you were there. Watching every maneuver. Wow. Are you the defence minister?

As I said, T-90 is a good tank in its own right, but I am not a blind worshipper of T-90.

Of course, your intention is lost to me in this thread. I don't even know what is it that want me to do in this thread.

Aaah, now that is a classic. What is "pretty quick?" Subjective.

Very fast. Like as induction progressed problems were discovered and fixed. Arjun has been in testing since 1991-92. T-90A started tests in 1999. 2001 they were inducted in IA. Then the small batch of tanks underwent tests in Indian conditions. Problems were obviously found and were fixed. Only after 2006 did IA order a second batch followed by a third in 2007. Orders are placed in batches mainly in order to find problems and fix them. Another option would be to place a large order enmasse at a cheaper rate. But we can get screwed in such a deal. Knowing that 2 additional orders were placed after the first, we can say the T-90 was acceptable to the army.

Comparatively the Arjun underwent trials since 1992, therefore the tank is advertised as the most tested tank in the world. The irony is lost to them, quite like their world's smallest aircraft.

The other part was totally unnecessary, after I had already said DRDO was late in delivering Arjun.

DRDO delivered late and after delivering it turns out to be a lemon.

 

[p2prada]

You know how Your attidute is called? Pseudo patriotism. Christ You are not defending interest of soldiers, their lifes etc. but interests of DRDO! This is insane, really.

What's the point. Many genuinely believe DRDO products are good. So many think buying DRDO is actually in the interest of soldiers.

 

[p2prada]

And no, you had no idea how HESH works, otherwise, you would not have made that silly comparison. I already knew how HESH works before I wrote that comment addressed to you, Nitesh, P2P. I just didn't offer an explanation because I wanted you or P2P to explain why is it ok to compare a HESH with a rifled or smoothbore gun.

But just as I had predicted, you guys came back with a whole lot of unrelated information, until Methos gave a knowlegeable answer - well, just go back and read. It's entertaining.

Edit:

Here, I knew what I was talking about before posting this.

No need to beat your chest simply because our comprehension ability maybe lesser than yours or Methos.

If you have a question to ask then ask. Don't give 100 factually incorrect statements with a question hidden in all that and expect us to answer your riddle.

Also, when someone has already given you an answer don't expect others to repeat the same answer just to prove a point. If your question has already been answered by someone else, then it makes no point for anybody else to repeat the same answer again. I hope you understand how discussions really take place on forums.

 

[pmaitra]

If you have a question to ask then ask.

I already asked, and you don't have an answer.

I will ask again:
Why did a smoothbore gun outperform a rifled gun? (refer to post by Methos)

This is for Damian too.

 

[pmaitra]

Not when you bring dust and ground pressure to the discussion when I am bringing superior weaponry, armour, logistics and tactics to the table.

It was you who first mentioned ground pressure, not I. Go back and read.

Arjun cannot survive a side hit even from a regular joe RPG. The armour is RHA. Unless of course they aimed carefully and hit the only part on the side which has composites.

And that 'regular joe' RPG that destroys will also destroy the T-90 [just being rhetorical].

Well, what RPG will destroy the Arjun?

First of all, what do you mean by RPG? It was two meanings:

• RPG as in light anti-tank grenade (ручной противотанковый гранатомёт).
• RPG as in Rocket Propelled Grenade.

If it is the latter, nothing, and I repeat, nothing is going to happen to Arjun. If it is the former, and if it destroys an Arjun, it will even destroy you beloved T-90. Sorry, I don't want to hurt your feelings.

Heck, even 23mm Ack-Ack fire will disable, if not destroy a T-90.

 

[pmaitra]

Are You kidding me?

No.

Who You are to pretend to be some sort of specialist. I gave You clear definition how HESH works, I made numerous arguments why HESH is no better than HE, HEF and other types of high explosive ammunition for smoothbore gun.

Either you don't understand English of you are totally retarded. It's not I who pretends to be an expert, but you, and you are exposed. Now read below, if you can understand.

Don't know man, I am not an expert in tanks and will not pretend to be one either.

I am only arguing on points that I am sure about.

Please enjoy this thread, because, it is funny.

You know what, screw Yourself,

Out of curiosity, and looking at your comment above, I was wondering; when you write posts, do you think with your brains or with your penis?

I have enought of talking with close minded ignorants, that ignores anything, history, development over the world etc. etc. etc.

You know how Your attidute is called? Pseudo patriotism. Christ You are not defending interest of soldiers, their lifes etc. but interests of DRDO! This is insane, really.

Please do continue to post, because, you and P2P have a lot of information that are correct. I can always overlook your lack of ability to explain things, but yes, you two do get credit for being a vault of information.

 

[p2prada]

It was you who first mentioned ground pressure, not I. Go back and read.

Please open every page and run a search. I never brought up ground pressure. You were the one who said the two tanks complement each other and that the Arjun's ground pressure is lesser than T-90s. Heck, I don't need to check back to remember what I posted. I remember talking about ground pressure in reply to your statements.

And that 'regular joe' RPG that destroys will also destroy the T-90 [just being rhetorical].

When the turret on the T-90 faces 20 degrees away from the enemy, the tank's frontal armour protects the side armour. In case of Arjun that is not so. A small little turn and the weak 80mm armour is exposed.

If you talk about real scenarios then the only time Arjun and T-90 are equally vulnerable from the sides is when the side and back are fully exposed to a guy with RPG.

Well, what RPG will destroy the Arjun?

Side and rear armour. Any will do. You name it and it goes through.

First of all, what do you mean by RPG? It was two meanin

• RPG as in light anti-tank grenade (ручной противотанковый гранатомёт).
• RPG as in Rocket Propelled Grenade.

In Russia they are all classified the same. RPG- followed by number.

If it is the latter, nothing, and I repeat, nothing is going to happen to Arjun. If it is the former, and if it destroys an Arjun, it will even destroy you beloved T-90. Sorry, I don't want to hurt your feelings.

The T-90 can be destroyed only outside of safe maneuvering angles. The safe maneuvering angle for Arjun is much lesser.

Heck, even 23mm Ack-Ack fire will disable, if not destroy a T-90.

Depends on the angle. If you are specifically talking about urban warfare then the T-90MS is supposed to handle such situations. Similarly, someday we will see the Arjun Mk2 with such upgrades. Like I have been telling since a long time, both tanks are of the same class. Both have similar armour protection albeit with more weak zones for Arjun. Both tanks can engage similar enemies and both tanks can receive the same upgrades. Neither tank is special. It is just that the T-90 is more mature and does not need a logistics upgrade for our entire corps. When it comes to tank killing the T-90 has better ammo because it is imported, has better armour because we are talking about armour levels similar to what's on the Arjun and Leo-A4 followed up by ERA K-5 over it.

I already asked, and you don't have an answer.

I will ask again:
Why did a smoothbore gun outperform a rifled gun? (refer to post by Methos)

This is for Damian too.

I haven't checked back because I don't know what to look for. But a smoothbore that does not put a spin on the shell can fire at higher velocities while the pressure is lower. Should I say 25% difference in reduction in friction does the trick. The stabilization system, recoil coupled to a modern FCS managed greater accuracy levels as compared to the CR2s gun. A smoothbore can fire HESH, but it is useless because the spin effect is lost. Even if the shell is made to spin, the rotations per second is much lower than what Rifling can provide. I don't know the numbers for it though.

However like I already mentioned, we aren't giving you function, we are explaining the advantages and disadvantages to answer your question on why talking about the gun with the shells is required.

You are one of those people who already have a answer in your head and are looking for only for that particular answer and not open for another while at the same time inundating the thread with factually incorrect statements.

Actually I like the way Methos answered your posts. He said the same things we are trying to tell you, like there are no class differences anymore, just that he probably finished it in a more mature way. Perhaps it is my fault that I try too much.

 

[methos]

Why did a smoothbore gun outperform a rifled gun? (refer to post by Methos)

It is a combination of various factors.
First of all the German smoothbore was in terms of firepower the best tank gun available. In the trials 1974/5 by Germany, the U.S. and the U.K.. The U.S. decided to use a upgraded 105 mm rifled gun, the M68A1 (allowing a slighty higher chamber pressure), in combination with different APFSDS rounds (including some DU ones). The U.K. used the EXP14-M1 110 mm rifled gun, but still prefered APDS rounds. The EXP-14-M1 allowed a higher pressure than the 120 mm L11 tank gun and was stronger while being smaller in terms of caliber. The 110 mm gun is more or less the predecessor of the current L30 gun used on the Challenger 2 tank.
The Germans used their 120 mm smoothbore gun with early APFSDS rounds.

In terms of firepower there is no doubt: The German 120 mm APFSDS penetrated most armour, while the U.S. APFSDS still penetrated more armour than the British 110 mm APDS.

Regarding accuracy there are different accounts. Most sources I have read claim that the 120 mm smoothbore gun was the most accurate, but in a TankNet thread someone mentioned a British author claiming otherwise. It could be that there were more than one test and in one of them the 110 mm APDS was better, but we can't say that for sure. The British later wanted the XM1 tank to use their 120 mm rifled EXP-19M13A tank gun, so the U.S. probably evaluated both German smoothbore and British rifled gun for a second time, ending up with the German smoothbore gun.

The German requirement for the 120 mm smoothbore gun was not only more armour penetration but also higher accuracy than the 105 mm L7 tank gun.

You can find some graphics in the German-language book "Leopard 2 - sein Werden und seine Leistung", page 58
Leopard 2 - sein Werden und seine Leistung - Paul-Werner Krapke - Google Books
120 mm APFSDS has longer range and a shallower angle of approach. Spin-stabilized rounds need a higher level of elevation due their lower muzzle velocity. That means that they will travel longer, i.e. they are more affected by friction and wind.

Relevant for accuracy are a number of different factors including drag, velocity, trajectory and range. Modern 120 mm APFSDS have an accuracy greater than 0.2 mil (which means that after 1,000 m range the APFSDS will land with a very high probability in a circle with a diameter of 20 cm) and this is often consistent to up to 4,000 m (then the diameter will be smaller than 4 x 20 cm).
Smoothbore guns can achieve higher velocities - the German APFSDS had initally a velocity of 1,650 m/s, but later 120 mm DM43 and 120 mm DM53 have velocities of 1,740-1,750 m/s. The British L23 APFSDS (only used British APFSDS round used during Cold War) has a muzzle velocity of only ~1,500 m/s. The current British APFSDS has a muzzle velocity of 1,650 m/s. All of these rounds are APFSDS, which means that they are stabilized by fins and not by spin. Given a similar fin size (similar drag) it seems unlikely that they can perform similar to the contemporary German APFSDS. Best thing the Indians could do is putting a smoothbore gun on their Arjun - HESH may be a good option in the past, but not for the future.

The stabilization system, recoil coupled to a modern FCS managed greater accuracy levels as compared to the CR2s gun.

In the triliteral joint-evaluation for future NATO armament in the 1970s/1980s the guns were probably used on static mounts without any FCS and special stabilization, at least I think so.
In German trials in the 1970s the German also mounted 105 mm rifled and 105 mm smoothbore guns in their Leopard 2 prototypes. So if they decided not to use static mounts they probably used the same stabilization and FCS equipment.
FCS was only relevant in the Greek evaluation and afaik they did not fire very much rounds. The Britts also claim that there rounds were stored to long and actually exceeded their design life.

Actually I like the way Methos answered your posts.

Thank you.

 

[p2prada]

In the triliteral joint-evaluation for future NATO armament in the 1970s/1980s the guns were probably used on static mounts without any FCS and special stabilization, at least I think so.
In German trials in the 1970s the German also mounted 105 mm rifled and 105 mm smoothbore guns in their Leopard 2 prototypes. So if they decided not to use static mounts they probably used the same stabilization and FCS equipment.
FCS was only relevant in the Greek evaluation and afaik they did not fire very much rounds. The Britts also claim that there rounds were stored to long and actually exceeded their design life.

Wouldn't different guns need to be calibrated differently even if the same FCS and stabilization is used. We simply can't install a Rifle gun on T-90 overnight and expect it to work with a similar efficiency as a smoothbore.

 

[pankaj nema]

@ P2 Prada

Arjun would never been inducted if it was not good enough for the Indian army

And Arjun mk 2 will even be better

The Arjun is devastating in the 2000 KM Rajasthan sector because of its sheer 1500 HP horsepower engine

And with well equipped infantry men moving along with armour why would we allow the enemy
to attack our tanks from behind and the sides

 

[Damian]

The Arjun is devastating in the 2000 KM Rajasthan sector because of its sheer 1500 HP horsepower engine

1400HP engine, also add to this the fact that Diesel need to spend approx 100+ more HP for it's cooling system, so we had approx 1200+-1300+ HP Diesel engine. We all know that for tank that weight approx 60 tons, 1500HP engine is minimum, and hey, actually for example Leopard 2 engine have maximum power 1800HP governed to 1500HP due to safety and other reasons, US AGT-1500C gas turbine engine have max power of 2000HP also governed for the same reasons to 1500HP. However as I said, Diesel allways loose some power for it's cooling system, Turbine not, or at least not so much (there are cooling fans for transmission only).

Arjun would never been inducted if it was not good enough for the Indian army

So welcome in real and adult world where sometimes politicians force Army to buy something because of political, prestige and other reasons... of course You can belive in any official story You want to, but thats Your problem.

 

[methos]

Wouldn't different guns need to be calibrated differently even if the same FCS and stabilization is used. We simply can't install a Rifle gun on T-90 overnight and expect it to work with a similar efficiency as a smoothbore.

Yes, but the German Leopard 2 prototypes should be calibrated for the guns they carry.

 

[Damian]

Zeroing + proper ballistic data for gun and ammunition loaded in to FCS and everything should be just fine.

 

[p2prada]

@ P2 Prada

Arjun would never been inducted if it was not good enough for the Indian army

Wish that were so. But it is not to be. Read Ray sir's last post in this thread.

Also, it has been noted that the Arjun Mk1s being inducted today were done so without having met full requirements. DRDO forced IA to buy substandard Arjuns and promised the issues will be fixed with later batches.

Right now DRDO is trying to fix all the niggles in the Mk2 before serial production starts.

[EDIT: If you really want to know how well a tank has been accepted, then you will need to see the numbers ordered and where they are being used. If a tank is being given step motherly treatment, then you know something was wrong from the start.]

The Arjun is devastating in the 2000 KM Rajasthan sector because of its sheer 1500 HP horsepower engine

That's silly.

Yes, but the German Leopard 2 prototypes should be calibrated for the guns they carry.

Noob question. Wouldn't the stabilization be designed in such a way that it supports one design over another? For eg: a 125mm smoothbore gun would work slightly differently as compared to a 120mm rifled gun or a 120mm smoothbore gun when installed on the same platform.