Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[pmaitra]

Right and wrong at the same time. In the real world you won't find anybody take a shell meant for rifled gun and fire it form a smoothbore.

Of course not, but then, you are still wrong to say a smoothbore has more accuracy. No, it does not. It is always less accurate, otherwise people still won't be making rifled ARs and LMGs, in this very 20th century. So, welcome to the 20th century. The laws of physics have not changed.

If you talk about basic text book difference then that's not what I am interested in.

I understand, but then, surely, you are not saying text books are wrong, are you?

Newton said light travels in a straight line and it took one Einstein to prove it wrong. Sorry, you are not at that level.

When Damian and I were arguing about why HESH is useless it is you who brought in the function of the Rifled gun.

No, it started with Damian comparing HESH with smoothbore, which is meaningless. That is because, apparently, he didn't know how HESH functions.

We rejected rifled gun for a whole host of other reasons which you claim to be unnecessary because, like I already said, you have one answer in your head and you want me to tell that. But I am not interested in that answer because in the real world that kind of a situation will never come up, ever.

Well, then cite the reasons. Answer to the point.

You made a valid point about the life of a smoothbore and reduction in required pressure, but then you flooded your comment with a lot of information. Yes, all that information was correct, but since they were not answering the question, they are garbage nonetheless. Do you get this point, or not?

Aren't you bringing it up now? When did I ever relate Rifled guns and HESH to accuracy. We are talking about everything, but you want one single point which brings no value to the real life scenario.

Not you, but it all started with a comment from Damian, not you.

Ok I gotta go, so I am skipping the rest of your post.

 

[Damian]

Just because somebody is a " military profesional " he can call us Indians any thing

WTF if you cant counter somebody crapping about your country you can go to HELL

Learn english. I'am not call Indians "any thing", I'am not crapping about Your country, but it seems that kids like you overreact seeing any constructive criticism that is not aimed against, but to say something to all in all, Asian country that is very close Allie both for whole west as also fo my own country.

Go back to school if You can't understand this.

 

[p2prada]

HE or HEF not HEAT. And programmable fuze and system for FCS can be designed in India also. But this will not work with HESH, HESH just can't do what programmable fuze do, it have to thin shell to be capable to penetrate structures or armor. But everything was explained why, when and how.

A programmable fuze on HESH is actually worthless. It will just go splat on the wall and explode after sometime on the ground. No point at all.

 

[pankaj nema]

@ Damian

Did nt you call DRDO scientists and Indian army officials as idiots and lunatics in the first place

You dont worry about us

We will NEVER ask Poland for any arms or ammunition in case of a war

 

[Mr.Ryu]

@Damian
Mate i say you again Arjun is our first not last and soon you will see better builds you can't expect to be in 100th floor when you start you must start from 1.

And Indian army is capable of defending INDIA without Arjun for all this years so it will be an add-on to what we have already and soon will become our true MBT that will kick puki A$$ as we did always,

 

[p2prada]

We will NEVER ask Poland for any arms or ammunition in case of a war

Actually we have quite a bit of Polish stuff.

Some of our electronics were designed from Polish stuff.

Some of our companies are setting up JVs with polish companies for artillery and other equipment.

We may even be buying Polish light UCPs for the future.

 

[Yusuf]

A technical thread should remain just that. No name calling, no nationality bashing and those with lesser knowledge, should cut out jingoism and watch the ones more knowledgeable slug it out. It helps increasing knowledge

 

[Damian]

Did nt you call DRDO scientists and Indian army officials as idiots and lunatics in the first place

Yes, some of them, and I have a good reason to do so.

If in my country designers would do the same I would also call them idiots.

We will NEVER ask Poland for any arms or ammunition in case of a war

Yeah, right, then look where ARV's are manufactured and who will be working on Assault Brigde version of Arjun...

Mate i say you again Arjun is our first not last and soon you will see better builds you can't expect to be in 100th floor when you start you must start from 1.

You know it could have been better if different decisions would be made...

And Indian army is capable of defending INDIA without Arjun for all this years so it will be an add-on to what we have already and soon will become our true MBT that will kick puki A$$ as we did always,

1) Don't be arrogant, allways respect every adversary.
2) Ask You if Arjun is worth to be fielded, if it was worth to be fielded in such way as it was, if there were no alternatives.

 

[pankaj nema]

@ P2prada

Yes I am aware that we are buying Polish equipment But these are commercial deals that we have with
so many countries

But Mr Damian is SO WORRIED about Indian security AS IF when war breaks out we would be running
to Poland for help

 

[pankaj nema]

A technical thread should remain just that. No name calling, no nationality bashing and those with lesser knowledge, should cut out jingoism and watch the ones more knowledgeable slug it out. It helps increasing knowledge

Sir You are absolutely right

And infact most of us here with our limited knowledge speak ONLY when we have read it some where
before

But the slugfest started when Mr Damian started calling Indian Army officials and DRDO scientists
as Idiots and lunatics

Who the hell does he think he is

 

[Damian]

But Mr Damian is SO WORRIED about Indian security AS IF when war breaks out we would be running
to Poland for help

Never said that You will be needing help from us. I said that it is good to have armaments in world wide standards so if there is nececity, ammunition for them or even these armaments can be purchased from foreing allie.

Let's put it straight so maybe You will understood.

Arjun is armed for example with German Rh-120/L55, this gun is manufactured not only in Germany.

If factories are bombed or are not capable to manufacture proper ammunition or proper quantities of ammunition, until problems are solved, You can purchase German, Israeli, US, South Korean, Japanese ammunition, not only projectiles to be assembled in India, but whole rounds.

This gives flexibility and improves safety fo the whole country.

But it seems that You are not capable to comprehend even such simple things...

And hey, I was allways tought that it is nice to have friends, colleagues or allies that have interest in supporting us... but it seems that for You the better options is to be arogant fool without anyone who can help You.

 

[Mr.Ryu]

You know it could have been better if different decisions would be made...

Who in this world does not make wrong ?

1) Don't be arrogant, allways respect every adversary.
2) Ask You if Arjun is worth to be fielded, if it was worth to be fielded in such way as it was, if there were no alternatives.

1) I am not arrogant i am just a common INDIAN and for me puki will always be puki [Your are DP and you follow all that respect discipline Honor for you adversary i cant ]

2) Yaaaaa yaaa you are feeling it right, ARJUN has not been fielded yet and will be better when it comes out and best in next block and will advance gradually

 

[Damian]

Who in this world does not make wrong ?

Everyone, but please read about R&D of tanks made in all big countries manufacturing them. Most weak points in design are eliminated in prototype phase, and there are allways made more than 5 prototypes, sometimes there even 20 or more prototypes before vehicles is accepted for mass production.

Besides this it is not good when only one team is working on vehicle or weapon system at all. This blocks any alternatives.

Look at R&D of M1 Abrams, there were 3 contenders in the whole deal, Chrysler Defence (later bought by General Dynamics and renamed General Dynamics Land Systems) who was final winner, General Motors and KMW from Germany.

In Uk during Chieftain/Challenger replacement also GDLS and KMW besides Vickers were participating in the deal.

In Soviet Union there were also at least 3 design bureaus competing with each other.

Competition is allways a good thing, but IA actually did not have any alternative for DRDO, besides of course foreing manufacturers, but as they are not liked why nobody bothers to have national alternative for DRDO that seems to have problems... at least India's citizens are complaining about these problem. Internal competition would help greatly.

But the slugfest started when Mr Damian started calling Indian Army officials and DRDO scientists
as Idiots and lunatics

Who the hell does he think he is

I'am someone who carefully look at all world wide designs, analize them and make conclusions. When I say that someone is idiot or made idiotic decision then I have a good reason.

As I said if someone would do the same in my country I would call him just same, and guess what, in 1990's it was very close that such people would do such idiotic thing, for the first time I'am happy that our politicians due to financial problems, cut spending on R&D program, looking at drawings and mockups of PT-94 I'am really happy.

 

[p2prada]

Of course not, but then, you are still wrong to say a smoothbore has more accuracy. No, it does not. It is always less accurate, otherwise people still won't be making rifled ARs and LMGs, in this very 20th century. So, welcome to the 20th century. The laws of physics have not changed.

Wrong. This is because you are looking at undergraduate level physics. Perhaps stuff you learn as a BE in mechanical.

Theoretically you are correct. If you fire HESH from a smoothbore, the accuracy level will be lower than Rifled. But you are forgetting the fact that nobody in their right mind will fire HESH from smoothbore. Heck nobody even makes it like that.

If you are talking about undergraduate physics in a tank discussion then you will always be wrong because at that level a lot of physics is ignored. Like the point where you agree with LB's comment that a rifled will have more kinetic energy. Real world tests, where there are so many fixed and variable quantities in the surroundings, showed that theoretical physics in the undergraduate level is wrong. If you completely omit friction and air resistance which already exists the time a shell leaves the breach, then that kind of theoretical science works correctly.

I understand, but then, surely, you are not saying text books are wrong, are you?

When you study a subject you don't bring in all quantities into it. Like you said it will inundate the subject with irrelevant matter. You should see the kind of horse crap we are fed when studying electronics in BE. It is terrible. Meaning once we enter the real world there is more to it than what's in the text books of that level. If you really want actual world info then look through research papers and technical papers from IEEE. Look through PhD text books. They give the complete picture.

Do you remember in school, when we were kids we were told that arteries carry oxygenated blood and veins carry deoxygenated blood. But once you get to high school you come to know that there are two exceptions where the Pulmonary vein carries oxygenated blood and aorta carries deoxygenated blood. Reach a level higher, in the field of medicine you realize that all of this was horse crap, the minute you start talking capillaries and other blood vessels, it gets even more complex, like everything you were taught in school was wrong.

Newton said light travels in a straight line and it took one Einstein to prove it wrong. Sorry, you are not at that level.

So, what? Newton looked at the world like you are doing now. Einstein saw the the entire Universe as something interrelated.

No, it started with Damian comparing HESH with smoothbore, which is meaningless. That is because, apparently, he didn't know how HESH functions.

Then ask properly. You don't throw riddles at a Eastern European. If you wanna do that then post in Polish. Heck even I did not know what your intentions were.

Well, then cite the reasons. Answer to the point.

You made a valid point about the life of a smoothbore and reduction in required pressure, but then you flooded your comment with a lot of information. Yes, all that information was correct, but since they were not answering the question, they are garbage nonetheless. Do you get this point, or not?

Throw the right question at the right time. Understand what OP was talking about. Don't come into the middle of a discussion with a textbook question and act as though you have some triple PhD. What you asked was a noob question, the kind of which I asked a few posts ago, about stabilization with different guns. Damian and Methos did not have to give a detailed textbook physics answer for that post. I got what I needed to know with just a few points and a frigging picture.

 

[Mr.Ryu]

@Damian

First there will not be a full blown war as you speak where factories will be bombed Infra's will be broken down or anything like that even if so i guess the Air force will be used extensively and Army will be using T-Series nor Arjun since in first place we dont have the numbers not even 500. Second our Arjun would have been cleared out in our 3-4 weeks of WAR.

 

[pankaj nema]

@ Damian

You are worried that Paki planes and missiles will take out our Ammunition factories and Arjun tank will
have no ammunition

No they cant Because Our ammunition factories are located FAR deep inside our territory

Paki planes and missiles will be tasked to stop our Indian army and also they will go after our forward air bases

We know that But that DOES NOT stop us from forward deployment of both our Army and Air force

We also KNOW the importance of logistics in war

So we keep huge amounts of ammunition including what we call War wastage reserves

Infact some years ago there was NO place to keep Ammunition then some several hundred tonnes
of ammunition was lost in fires

Secondly are you aware of the Thousands of Rounds of Artillery shells that we fired DAILY on the Pakis
before a ceasefire came into effect

And EVERYDAY we would POUND and silence the Paki Guns into Submission

And our troops are cut off in winter because of snow , but they have several MONTHS of Ammunition

Indian Army will NEVER be short of any type of Ammunition

 

[Damian]

First there will not be a full blown war as you speak where factories will be bombed Infra's will be broken down or anything like that even if so i guess the Air force will be used extensively and Army will be using T-Series nor Arjun since in first place we dont have the numbers not even 500. Second our Arjun would have been cleared out in our 3-4 weeks of WAR.

You seems to be optimist then, I'am realist, full war can broke everywhere, everytime. One thing it is needed is business, if someone have it, it will do everything to gain profits. So it is better to be prepared for everything. In my country we are saying: dmuchaj na zimne it means blow on cold in free translation. Hope You get my point.

@pankaj nema

Please, less computer games more realism, Pakistan is not only enemy You have there, smart man is prepared for even worst scenario... at least in such situation I would not take any chances and do everything to ensure that if anything happens I would have options to properly react.

In tank designs it is how it is done, for example armaments unification, look at UK, they stick wih rifled guns for a long time, and voila, factory was closed, and there is no possibility to buy foreing ammunition if needed. This killed really good tank, short seeing decision makers in Army that decided they like HESH, how this ended?

No exports, no additional money, no more production, no more work for people etc. etc. etc.

Same will happen with Arjun, it have no views on exports means no additional money for further R&D.

 

[Mr.Ryu]

BtB

Does the ammunition is also done from Chennai where the Tank is Manufactured or IOFB

 

[Mr.Ryu]

You seems to be optimist then, I'am realist, full war can broke everywhere, everytime. One thing it is needed is business, if someone have it, it will do everything to gain profits. So it is better to be prepared for everything. In my country we are saying: dmuchaj na zimne it means blow on cold in free translation. Hope You get my point.

Bro china is too smart they wont affect their economy growth by going to war

But Puki are emotional and fools and most of their ranks are infiltrated by radicals they will always try adventure and run into bathroom for cover as happened all this years including Kargil so puki are the ones who we have to consider who will think of bombing our Factory other than them, They can be rest assured Puki will not have a land to call theirs if they dare attacking us.

 

[LurkerBaba]

Please restrict comments about Pakistani and Chinese mentality to these threads:

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/pakistan/439-pakistans-ideology-identity-crisis.html
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/china/26737-understanding-china.html