Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[ppgj]

No denying that. But the Kanchan, effective though it is, turned out to be too heavy to trust the tank's timely mobilization.

every additional armour adds to weight. one can't have extra armour and less weight.

also pertinent to note Arjun was built for survivability, meaning to take hits yet stilll carry on unlike T-90.

Coming to survivability – Arjun was also criticised for having a bigger silhouette than T-90S
therefore attracting more enemy attention & thus more hits. But Arjun was not designed to
avoid enemy hits. Unlike its Russian counterparts which are designed to escape the eye of
the enemy Arjun was designed to survive the enemy. Russian tanks are not good at surviving
if hit by enemy fire. Their best protection is to escape it. You can see pictures
(and read the article too) of the T-90 tanks devastated by enemy fire at
Ajai Shukla’s blog – Broadsword. But Arjun MBT survives enemy fire. Trials have
shown that Arjun with DRDO developed ‘Kanchan’ armour survives all explosive rounds
including the APFSDS (Armour Peircing Fin Stabilised Discarding Sabot).
So to say that there is no tank ammunition currently available to destroy the
Arjun will not be all wrong. T-90S has ERA (Explosive Reactive Armour)
protection but it doesn’t saves the tank from FSAPDS.
And by the way Arjun too supports ERA as an add-on.

IndiaFirst: Arjun MBT - will the controversy end?

now for mobility.

are we incapable of building roads and rail wagons for these? i think we can.
if you are referring to mobility in battlefield, it is proven Arjun is better.

That's the whole bloody problem. We don't know which GSQR everyone is talking about.

all GSQR's were dictated by the army. go thro' the link i provided in the past post.

on the one hand you said it is overweight and on the other you say which GSQR one is talking about. can't get it.

As far as providing the exact figures is concerned, I cannot do that. Those figures are not open source.

atleast i gave a link all GSQR's were dictated by the army (which is natural, being end users). still you keep saying weight issues.

1 regiment. The 43rd Armoured Regiment. They are inducting because the no. of available MLC-70 available can support a regiment.

right when 16 tanks were inducted. already more have been inducted and more to come. so it wont be 1 regiment.

MLC stands for Military load classification.
MLC-60 means, they can carry a max. of 60 tonnes. The Arjun's bare weight is believed to be 58.5 tonnes. A fully loaded tank, with reserve ammo and fuel, along with the proposed ERA(Explosive reactive armour) will lead to the crossing of the 60-tonne mark, leaving only the scarce MLC-70 bridges to support it.

MLC-70 = 70 tonnes max. weight.

1. Bridge Layer Tank, BLT-72: Noted by DRDO to be the amongst the best bridging system avalaible on a medium class tank. It has an option to carry a 20 m or a 22 m class 70 MLC bridge, which can be negotiated by all tanks in service with Indian Army, including MBT Arjun. User trial completed during 1996. Twelve numbers of BLT T-72 are under production at HVF, Avadi, Chennai.

Defence Research and Development Organisation at AllExperts

The Army is doing what is logical.

only they can explain their logics!!

Ok. So where will the armour pop up from when additional fronts are opened ?

cold start is for surprise. does not mean backup is not planned with threats taken account of.

You will have to ask one of the pros about the exact figures. They need to be enough to support at least eight Integrated Armoured Divisions.

i asked what i asked because you said it is not enough in your previous post.

That's because it can't reach where we want it to, in time.

i don't agree with that. again begs the point why army is inducting??

 

[nimo_cn]

i don't agree with that. again begs the point why army is inducting??

IMO, IA is doing so to comfort the angry Indian taxpayer.

As far as i know, common Indians have poured too much expectation into Arjun (the name of the tank can indicate how enthusiastic you are about it), hoping it can become a powerful weapon of India. In this situation, failure is intolerant, especailly after the research of Arjun has cost the taxpayer much money. So even if it is a failure (according to logistics flaw mentioned above), IA has to induct Arjun to avoid letting down the public.

No offence, it is my personal opinion.

 

[ppgj]

IMO, IA is doing so to comfort the angry Indian taxpayer.

no. it is the other way round. they wasted taxpayer's money by giving the specs to drdo and when they came up with superior tank, they are playing traunt. they are still wasting tax payer's money. inducting 124 tanks will not even give drdo break even. 500 will.

As far as i know, common Indians have poured too much expectation into Arjun (the name of the tank can indicate how enthusiastic you are about it), hoping it can become a powerful weapon of India. In this situation, failure is intolerant, especailly after the research of Arjun has cost the taxpayer much money. So even if it is a failure (according to logistics flaw mentioned above), IA has to induct Arjun to avoid letting down the public.

go through the whole thread before you say those things.

it is not a emotional expectation. it is simply superior tank. even israeli audit of the last held trial said it is world class.

now the indian army inducts T-90 with lot of problems not resolved and yet at the same time they reject a better and good tank on any parameter.

No offence, it is my personal opinion.

no problem.

 

[p2prada]

IMO, IA is doing so to comfort the angry Indian taxpayer.

As far as i know, common Indians have poured too much expectation into Arjun (the name of the tank can indicate how enthusiastic you are about it), hoping it can become a powerful weapon of India. In this situation, failure is intolerant, especailly after the research of Arjun has cost the taxpayer much money. So even if it is a failure (according to logistics flaw mentioned above), IA has to induct Arjun to avoid letting down the public.

No offence, it is my personal opinion.

IA does not exist to keep the tax payers happy. Tax payers will be happiest when all wars cease to exist. It is the govts job to keep the tax payers happy. Inducting a system which does not serve any purpose will be meaningless in the long run.

 

[neo29]

Indian army should pit the arjun against t-90. both tanks are best at its place. t-90 is probably more agile since lighter, but arjun has good survivability success when hit because of its strong armour.

I dont think anyone hates t-90s but its difficult to see a home made tank having better abilities ignored because of past failures. drdo has a huge record of failures, but in the end they do make the product work well.

Anyone having doubts of arjun's performance, a easy logic to explain. the army would not have inducted the 124 tanks in the first place if it doubted little bit in its performance. ofcourse they did it with a heavy heart though.

Both tanks should be produced and inducted simultaneously. india would be lucky to have 2 types of 3rd generation tanks.

 

[Soham]

every additional armour adds to weight. one can't have extra armour and less weight.

By that logic, the German Tiger(WW2) weighing 57 tonnes has better armour than the T-90 ?

also pertinent to note Arjun was built for survivability, meaning to take hits yet stilll carry on unlike T-90.

When have I denied that ? But how will you get the tank in place fast enough ?

are we incapable of building roads and rail wagons for these? i think we can.
if you are referring to mobility in battlefield, it is proven Arjun is better.

Yes, it is better. We are not incapable of the logistical improvement. But it hasn't been done. Tough luck for the Arjun.

i asked what i asked because you said it is not enough in your previous post.

That is understandable. Unfortunately I'm no pro, so I can't give you the figures. I can however tell you that there aren't enough to support 8 IBGs.

i don't agree with that. again begs the point why army is inducting??

Disagreement is your right. As I have told you before, they are inducting because a regiment level induction can be supported.


About the other points, we are just oscillating between "Its too heavy - its not too heavy." I have told you with precision, the load carrying capacity of the majority of our bridging equipment. Yes, we have MLC-70s, but unless they are inducted in large numbers, Arjun cannot wreck havoc when and where required.

If you don't agree with transportation to the fronts, fine. But how can you dodge the bridging question ? As soon as we invade, Pakistan would naturally blow up all the bridges in their retreat(if they choose to back off). How will you get the Arjuns on the other side of the river(or whatever the bridge connected)?

 

[Soham]

IMO, IA is doing so to comfort the angry Indian taxpayer.

As far as i know, common Indians have poured too much expectation into Arjun (the name of the tank can indicate how enthusiastic you are about it), hoping it can become a powerful weapon of India. In this situation, failure is intolerant, especailly after the research of Arjun has cost the taxpayer much money. So even if it is a failure (according to logistics flaw mentioned above), IA has to induct Arjun to avoid letting down the public.

No offence, it is my personal opinion.

IA doesn't procure weapons to please the taxpayer. It is a requirement which cannot be questioned.
And we don't enough money to buy the MBTs to keep "enthusiasm" and morale high.

 

[Soham]

While the run of the mill arjun shares many design clues with the battle-proven and clinically effective Leopard 2, It also shares it's flaws i.e a flat turret front this should be corrected in the Mk2 one logical evolution would be for the turret to become something more like the Leopard 2A6 or the Leopard 2 PSO keeping in mind future Urban combat operations.

Agreed.
However, just getting curious, won't the angular turret become a disadvantage for the tank when it receives fire from elevated positions ? Or when it is stuck in an artillery barrage ?

 

[ppgj]

By that logic, the German Tiger(WW2) weighing 57 tonnes has better armour than the T-90 ?

the quote is not mine. it is of the author, the link of which i gave you.

however it answers your armour query. it is capable of both kanchan and ERA armour.

i am not comparing anything to anything. am sticking to Arjun.

When have I denied that ? But how will you get the tank in place fast enough ?

i never said you denied it either. the point of my post of that is about protection. one tank survives and fights - Arjun, while the other can't survive and hence has to run away to protect itself - T-90.

how do we get the tank in place fast. well as we do with T-90. if rail wagons need modification it is not a huge issue.

Yes, it is better. We are not incapable of the logistical improvement. But it hasn't been done. Tough luck for the Arjun.

well the army gave the specs. it is their job to create the infrastructure. if they have not done that why blame Arjun?

That is understandable. Unfortunately I'm no pro, so I can't give you the figures. I can however tell you that there aren't enough to support 8 IBGs.

but the point is, all tanks are not inducted enmasse. the necessary requirements would be done as the inductions happen. it is over a period of time, of which army has plenty even now - if they decide.

Disagreement is your right. As I have told you before, they are inducting because a regiment level induction can be supported.

friend. they happen simultaneously. infrastructure, logistics created and inductions happen.

About the other points, we are just oscillating between "Its too heavy - its not too heavy." I have told you with precision, the load carrying capacity of the majority of our bridging equipment. Yes, we have MLC-70s, but unless they are inducted in large numbers, Arjun cannot wreck havoc when and where required.

i never brought weight into discussions.

as for MLC-70's, they can happen but first army has to decide about where they stand on Arjun!! by dithering, they are wasting DRDO's time and money.

If you don't agree with transportation to the fronts, fine. But how can you dodge the bridging question ? As soon as we invade, Pakistan would naturally blow up all the bridges in their retreat(if they choose to back off). How will you get the Arjuns on the other side of the river(or whatever the bridge connected)?

the same applies to T-90's.

 

[Soham]

the quote is not mine. it is of the author, the link of which i gave you.

however it answers your armour query. it is capable of both kanchan and ERA armour.

Capability was never in scrutiny.

i never said you denied it either. the point of my post of that is about protection. one tank survives and fights - Arjun, while the other can't survive and hence has to run away to protect itself - T-90.

Haha.. They don't have to run from Al-Khalids.

how do we get the tank in place fast. well as we do with T-90. if rail wagons need modification it is not a huge issue.

Yes they can be. But its not being done.
My emphasis is on the bridges. T-90s can move to the other side easily on MLC-60 bridges.

well the army gave the specs. it is their job to create the infrastructure. if they have not done that why blame Arjun?

I'm not blaming the Arjun. I'm questioning their induction at the present moment.

but the point is, all tanks are not inducted enmasse. the necessary requirements would be done as the inductions happen. it is over a period of time, of which army has plenty even now - if they decide.

If they decide someday. And someday is a long time. So far, there hasn't been the slightest indication of any effort towards it.

the same applies to T-90's.

It doesn't. T-90s can cross over on the MLC-60s and rape them.

 

[Soham]

sayareakd - 10:20 PM 05-01-2010
Arjun tank is based on hit survival and not on hit avoidance concept, that is why present shape.

But it wouldn't hurt to divert an incoming shell, would it ? Avoiding the hit only increases the chances of survival.

 

[ppgj]

Capability was never in scrutiny.

fine. but you did raise armour protection issue.

Haha.. They don't have to run from Al-Khalids.

my point is to make Al-Khalids run (for life )

Yes they can be. But its not being done.
My emphasis is on the bridges. T-90s can move to the other side easily on MLC-60 bridges.

MLC-70 is already there. numbers can be filled if army wills Arjun.

I'm not blaming the Arjun. I'm questioning their induction at the present moment.

hope army has answers to both of us.

If they decide someday. And someday is a long time. So far, there hasn't been the slightest indication of any effort towards it.

so who is to be blamed?

It doesn't. T-90s can cross over on the MLC-60s and rape them.

MLC-70 is already there. Arjuns can cross and create more havoc than T-90.

.......................

i rest my case.

 

[Soham]

i rest my case.

So do I. I'm sick and bored of Arjun now.

 

[bengalraider]

Agreed.
However, just getting curious, won't the angular turret become a disadvantage for the tank when it receives fire from elevated positions ? Or when it is stuck in an artillery barrage ?

Why should an angled turret prove to be a disadvantage? all military studies show that angled turrets have a significantly better chance of survival than a flat box The Abrams turret is angled as is the Merkava's and the T-series turrets.
As per example when the Leo 2A6 receives fire from elevated positions it can fire back just like most other tanks also the angled turret top especially in the Hellenic army version means that it has a fair chance of deflecting the shell, as for getting stuck in a an artillery barrage well show me a tank that could possibly survive one and i'll show you 2 a Pzh 1000"Landkreuzer Ratte" and a Pzh 1500 " Monster".

Leo 2A6 with gun elevated note regular 2A6 turret top

Leo 2A6 HEL turret: note extra angled armor on top of turret

Just for laughs a PZH 1000 "This would possible survive a Smerch barrage even

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL0h19ci6dw

It's big brother the Monster ( ok it's technically a SPG)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wR8Q07jVNA

 

[sayareakd]

my point is to make Al-Khalids run (for life )

Al khalid will not even see Arjun, only sound of missile warning on its missile warning receiver (if they are good enought) then LAHAT/CLGM will hit them from 6-8 KM that too from non line of sight firing by arjun.

 

[notinlove]

the quote is not mine. it is of the author, the link of which i gave you.

i never said you denied it either. the point of my post of that is about protection. one tank survives and fights - Arjun, while the other can't survive and hence has to run away to protect itself - T-90.

PPG you are forgetting this is the primary reason we have bought LEDS 150
APS with hard kill capability from SAAB the T-90 Doesn't has to Run it can stand and deliever :goodstuff:

 

[nimo_cn]

I think the fact is simple here, IA doesn't want to induct Arjun. 124 tanks can barely be called an induction, it is more like a gesture.

And the reason is simple, Arjun fails to live up to the expectation of IA in certain aspects. If Arjun was superior to T90 or other 3rd generation tanks as you claim, i don't see any reason for IA to refuse to induct a home-made powerful tank, instead i believe IA would induct 1000 Arjuns rather than 1000 T90s without any hesitation in that case.

So the situation here is IA doesn't recognize Arjun as a superior tank and it doesn't think Arjun is qualified to be massively inducted. Under this circumstance, any discussion about the superiority of Arjun is meaningless, i think.

 

[Soham]

I think the fact is simple here, IA doesn't want to induct Arjun. 124 tanks can barely be called an induction, it is more like a gesture.

And the reason is simple, Arjun fails to live up to the expectation of IA in certain aspects. If Arjun was superior to T90 or other 3rd generation tanks as you claim, i don't see any reason for IA to refuse to induct a home-made powerful tank, instead i believe IA would induct 1000 Arjuns rather than 1000 T90s without any hesitation in that case.

So the situation here is IA doesn't recognize Arjun as a superior tank and it doesn't think Arjun is qualified to be massively inducted. Under this circumstance, any discussion about the superiority of Arjun is meaningless, i think.

You don't like reading, do you ?
Most of the post above yours on the 2 previous pages deal with why they haven't been inducted in large numbers.

 

[nimo_cn]

You don't like reading, do you ?
Most of the post above yours on the 2 previous pages deal with why they haven't been inducted in large numbers.

I have read those posts before i posted my opinions. The reason i made those post is none of your explanations is convincing, all of them are far-fetched.

I didn't mean to degrade Arjun when i said it fails to live up to the expectation of IA. That is simply the fact, if IA is satisfied with Arjun, it won't induct massive T90s while only inducts 124 Arjuns, that doesn't make any sense.

 

[Soham]

I have read those posts before i posted my opinions. The reason i made those post is none of your explanations is convincing, all of them are far-fetched.

I didn't mean to degrade Arjun when i said it fails to live up to the expectation of IA. That is simply the fact, if IA is satisfied with Arjun, it won't induct massive T90s while only inducts 124 Arjuns, that doesn't make any sense.

Unfortunately, we haven't reached a stage where we can blindly procure weapons without severe viability checks. Maintenance and logistics are an inevitable part of any weapon system. If it cannot be supported, it cannot be bought.