Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[sayareakd]

where is Arjun MK-II, last time i heard their was no budget sanction for the same.

 

[bengalraider]

ok guys here is the good news (hoping it is true) a new year gift:

FORCE - A Complete News Magazine on National Security - Defence Magazine

Also under construction at HVF are 124 units of the Indian locally-designed Arjun MBT, which recently underwent comparative trials with the T-72 and T-90S. These desert trials, it is learned, were fairly successful which has pushed the army to raise the initial order to 250 enough for six regiments with a possible product improved order for another 250 as Mark II version.

adding on what nitesh has already posted from the same article

Adding to the haphazard and somewhat ad hoc plethora of armour, procurement programme, ministry of defence in 2008 concluded a fresh contract with Russia to supply an additional 347 T-90S in complete sets of components for local assembly. However, these supplementary T-90S kits are not expected to impinge on the agreed scope of the license program to locally construct 1,000 MBTs with production that was to have begun in 2007, but was postponed. In all, the army’s armour profile through 2015-2020 could comprise of approximately 1700 T-90S, 1800-2000 upgraded T-72M1s, and 250–500 Arjuns.

Armour Upgradation Programme

article is by Brig. Arun Sahgal (retd).
Though the part about 250-500 Arjuns is interesting and uplifting what is more interesting is the total lack of any mention of the light tanks , which can be due to one of two reasons either the honorable retd brigadier is simply unaware of the RFI or it has been cancelled .Another thing is that even tough the army seems to want to fight a war on two fronts we do not see any significant increase in the numbers of modern tanks to be deployed.

 

[plugwater]

India readying weapon system

THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: India is all set to do a China visa-a-vis anti-satellite capabilities. With space technology emerging as a crucial factor in the nation's defence, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) plans greater emphasis on space security which will include development of anti-satellite systems, Director General of DRDO V K Saraswat said here on the sidelines of the Indian Science Congress.

"We have the building blocks.

What is needed is technology to track the movements of enemy satellites, for instance before making a kinetic kill. We are trying to build a credible deterrence capability.

Many of these technologies may never be used," Saraswat, who is also adviser to Defence Minister A K Antony, said.

Space security, he said, involves the need for a gamut of capabilities including the protection of our satellites, communication and navigation systems and how you can deny your enemy his own space systems forms an important part of this strategy. The DRDO, he said, is all set to launch a national programme for developing tank propulsion systems. This will be taken up in association with R&D institutions across the country.

Saraswat said that no problem existed with the design of the Agni II missile, the test-firing of which failed twice last year. "There are no problems with the design. The problem is basically with the production quality. I won't say a 'slip' in production quality, but an 'oversight' at minute levels. We've to make sure that manpower at the production agencies is adequately trained," he said.

On Arjun, the Main Battle Tank developed by the DRDO, Saraswat said that the Army was "comfortable" with the first batch of 124 tanks. A second batch will be supplied soon. The locally-designed Kaveri engine will be fitted on the advanced medium combat aircraft.

The engine is undergoing high-altitude tests in Russia, he said.

India readying weapon system

 

[plugwater]

Arjun Mk2 – The Futuristic MBT

Development is a continuous effort and Arjun Tank will be following the same in future. Since there are advantages of product improvements, rather than starting all over again, the Arjun MBT development will be periodic improvements as in the case of the worldwide MBT’s. Current design of the Arjun Tanks has been frozen to enable production. Arjun Tank in the next phase will see comparatively major changes. It could be called as Futuristic MBT.

As the worldwide MBT’s are getting network warfare friendly, Arjun MBT will have a logical improvement via a Battle Field Management System (BFMS). BFMS will provide information to tank commanders at different levels. This could network with helicopters or UAV’s too.

The BFMS will give the geographical location of the terrain, location of our own troops, location of enemy targets, illuminate targets, help navigation, display the health of tanks, status of ammunition holding in the tank, fuel stock etc.

As the imaging technology improves, Arjun MBT will feature an “Auto Tracker.” The auto tracker is a system based on image processing. As the gunner sight is fixed on a target, a picture analysis takes place. When the target moves, the Arjun Tank gun and the sight gets aligned with the target and move automatically keeping the target in focus. This is particularly good in cross country, when target is moving, Arjun Tank might go through bumps or twists or turns for maneuvering, but the auto tracker will not loose the sight of the target. In normal cases with T-55 and T-72, when the tanks try to negotiate an undulation or try a defensive move, the tank commander cupola is moving to acquire the target; the guns go off target. There is a crew disorientation that takes place in such conditions and the crew ends up pointing target at opposite direction. T-90S too has similar issues but is much better than the T-72 in this case. Another aspect is, the Arjun MBT turret is a heavy mass of approximately 16- 20 tons and gun mass is about approximately 2 tons. To stabilize the turret and gun is a difficult task. Currently Arjun Tank uses something called “director mode” .The top mirror of the gunner sight of Arjun Tank is independently stabilized. A computer evaluates the elevation of both top mirror and the gun as well as the angle of the turret. There is a continuous feeding of these parameters into the computer; the computer gives electronic instructions to the gun control system. Hence the Arjun Tank gunner sight is in the middle of the target even in the cross country environment. If momentarily the gun is misaligned, the firing circuit does not open and the gunner is not able to fire. Whether Arjun MBT is static, target is static or Arjun MBT is static, target is moving or Arjun MBT is moving, target is static or both Arjun MBT and target are moving; The Arjun Tank firing accuracy remains more or less the same, and achieves a very high level of accuracy.

Defensive aid like Shotra system for Arjun Tank is getting developed. An 81mm Anti-laser and Anti-thermal Screening Smoke Grenade is also going to be featured.

The Lahat missile’s laser designator module will be integrated into fire control computer.

There will not be any revolutionary physical changes on the Arjun MBT platform.

Arjun Mk2 – The Futuristic MBT | Frontier India Strategic and Defence - News, Analysis, Opinion - Aviation, Military, Commodity, Energy, Transportation, Conflict, Environment, Intelligence, Internal Security

 

[neo29]

Whats the use of arjun mk2 when the army does not even want to talk about arjun because they are more attached to the t-90 and the kickbacks they got with it.
they inducted 124 with a heavy heart , refuse to compare and test the arjun with t-90. the project is seriously has potential but not given attention by the indian army.

 

[bengalraider]

While the run of the mill arjun shares many design clues with the battle-proven and clinically effective Leopard 2, It also shares it's flaws i.e a flat turret front this should be corrected in the Mk2 one logical evolution would be for the turret to become something more like the Leopard 2A6 or the Leopard 2 PSO keeping in mind future Urban combat operations.

ie from this

Leo 2A4
to this

Leo 2A6
or this

Leo 2 PSO

 

[Soham]

Whats the use of arjun mk2 when the army does not even want to talk about arjun because they are more attached to the t-90 and the kickbacks they got with it.
they inducted 124 with a heavy heart , refuse to compare and test the arjun with t-90. the project is seriously has potential but not given attention by the indian army.

Stop treating the Army like a bunch of fools having no idea about what they are doing. Arjun is a great tank, but its weight and transportation issues threaten to increase its mobilization beyond acceptable limits for Cold Start to be effective.
Its not exactly DRDO's fault, but unless something about the infrastructure, we can just sit and hope that the MK2 performs a miracle.

 

[ppgj]

Stop treating the Army like a bunch of fools having no idea about what they are doing. Arjun is a great tank, but its weight and transportation issues

but it was army which gave the specs to drdo for the design!! if weight was an issue why did they wait for so long while at the same time inducting T-90's?

threaten to increase its mobilization beyond acceptable limits for Cold Start to be effective.

cold start, as i understand, is a doctrine where the offensive and defensive forces merge. the enemy will not be able to decipher who is what? which means the man and the machines are already there. so how does weight or dimensions come into this picture? even on mobility Arjun scores!!

Its not exactly DRDO's fault,

agree.

but unless something about the infrastructure, we can just sit and hope that the MK2 performs a miracle.

yes, that is point for the future. but how come MARK 2 is not an issue for the army regards weight and width?

 

[sayareakd]

I always said that Arjun is good tank compare to T series tank, now DGMF has to eat his word.

 

[bengalraider]

Arjun tank is based on hit survival and not on hit avoidance concept, that is why present shape.

The Leopard 2 was also designed to survive .In the Case of any Soviet invasion of Europe the Leopard was to be the vanguard of the European defense taking out T-72's and T-80's while absorbing hits itself. While the eventual numerical superiority of the soviet armored columns would overwhelm any European resistance in due time the job of the leopard 2 along with the AMX 13 was to buy Europe that time . i.e the Leopard 2 was to delay the soviet armored horde until american forces had arrived in enough numbers as to open a second front.

The Initial design of the Arjun was inspired from if not totally based on the Leopard 2(no official design help was garnered). The Germans had long been interested in helping Indian armor development and had supplies a design for the Indian tank competition in the 50's
(see design pic below) however that tank lost to the vickers vijayanta and was never built. The Arjun design was based on the Leo 2 taking into account the impressive amount of survivability the Germans had managed to pack into the machine, i feel it is but logical that any evolution of the Arjun takes the tried and tested route followed by it's European cousin.

 

[Soham]

but it was army which gave the specs to drdo for the design!! if weight was an issue why did they wait for so long while at the same time inducting T-90's?

The army did not provide weight specifications to DRDO. They provided the requirement specs, for which DRDO provided an ideal tank. Too bad, they didn't have the common sense to have a look at the bridging and transportation equipment to support it.

They ordered the T-90s to maintain the armour strength, and there's no flaw in that train of thought.

cold start, as i understand, is a doctrine where the offensive and defensive forces merge. the enemy will not be able to decipher who is what? which means the man and the machines are already there. so how does weight or dimensions come into this picture? even on mobility Arjun scores!!

Arjun scores in mobility once its in place. Not the whole Arjun fleet will be present at the front, which means that they have to be transported to the front primarily through rail cars.

Cold Start is about making rapid advances into enemy territory in an effort to overwhelm their defence. How do you expect the Arjuns to cross all those bridges ? If the PA blows up the bridges in place, then the bridges put in place by the engineers cannot take the Arjun's weight. As I said, unless bridging and transportation is taken care of, cold start will depend primarily on the T-90s.

yes, that is point for the future. but how come MARK 2 is not an issue for the army regards weight and width?

Because they hope that something will be done about the problems listed above. DRDO is responsible for the bridging equipment too. They need to complement the Arjun with suitable bridging equipment. Right now, they(the Army) just need to shut up DRDO's daily reports criticizing the Army's judgement.

Work is in progress, hopefully it will fructify into massive induction of the Arjun.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE4-5/kapoor.html

Here another. Look at the BLT-72.
http://www.drdo.com/labs/cvrde/achieve.html

 

[Soham]

Why doesnt the army have guts to field test and compare arjun and t90 then ??

Because this is no contest of pride. There is no doubt over Arjun's superiority. The doubt is on it mobilisation.

 

[neo29]

Because this is no contest of pride. There is no doubt over Arjun's superiority. The doubt is on it mobilisation.

the only prob arjun had that army claimed was that the engine overheats. drdo says they recified it. infact there was a issue of sabotage during the army trials. that issue is speculative.

i really dont see mobilisation problem here. they did recify the engine, transmission and installed state of the art suspension system. if the army not interested in it why will they make more. agreed that there were failures but drdo did prove its worth later on. but army is not interested. arjun tank has kanchan armour. best among the 3rd generation tanks.

arjun tanks were supposed to be pitted against t-90s during trials in oct-nov 2009 but now nobody talking about it. the news seems to be vanished.

infact there have been reports of firing mechanism failing in the t90s. that is some serious issue. what use is a tank when it doesnt fire.

 

[Soham]

the only prob arjun had that army claimed was that the engine overheats. drdo has rectified it and proved it by facing an 8000 hours trial in hot deserts of rajasthan.

i really dont see mobilisation problem here. they did recify the engine, transmission and installed state of the art suspension system. if the army not interested in it why will they make more. agreed that there were failures but drdo did prove its worth later on. but army is not interested. arjun tank has kanchan armour. best among the 3rd generation tanks.

arjun tanks were supposed to be pitted against t-90s in oct-nov 2009 but now nobody talking about it. the news seems to be vanished.

infact there have been reports of firing mechanism failing in the t90s. that is some serious issue. what use is a tank when it doesnt fire.

Please read post 190.
I'm not talking about technical faults, I'm talking about logistical problems. The majority of the Indian assault bridges are MLC-60 specified. We'll need lots of MLC-70s to be able to field the Arjun whenever and wherever required.

By the same logic as yours, what use is a tank when it can't reach the battlefront in time ?

 

[ppgj]

The army did not provide weight specifications to DRDO. They provided the requirement specs, for which DRDO provided an ideal tank.

In April 1978, the Indian Army called DRDO for a meeting for mutual discussions.
The aim was to change the GSQR No. 326. A series of meetings between DRDO and Indian Army,
chaired by VCOAS resulted in change in GSQR. The new GSQR bearing the number 431 was issued in August 1982.

The changes in the GSQR No. 431 were

a)Increase in width and weight
b)110/115mm gun was to be replaced with a 120mm gun.
c)Improved Sighting and Fire Control system.

History of Arjun Tank Development | Frontier India Strategic and Defence - News, Analysis, Opinion - Aviation, Military, Commodity, Energy, Transportation, Conflict, Environment, Intelligence, Internal Security

inspite of that, Arjun compares better compared to similar heavy tanks.

Too bad, they didn't have the common sense to have a look at the bridging and transportation equipment to support it.

The system is designed to take the weight of the Arjun, by far the heaviest vehicle in the Army’s inventory. According to the Sarvatra Project Director Dr P.K. Venkatachalam, a microprocessor based control system reduces the number of personnel required to deploy and operationalize the bridge. The Sarvatra project was sanctioned in 1994 and completed development in October 1999 at a total cost of Rs 230 million. The bridging equipment is carried on a Tatra Kolos chassis and the system is built by Bharat Earth Movers Ltd (BEML) at their Mysore complex. Exercise Sangharsh scheduled for the first half of the year will see the first deployment of the system. DRDO is developing a newer version of the Sarvatra with 20 meter long spans.

Defence Research and Development Organisation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The equipment has been developed for bridging dry and wet gaps up to 75m span. The bridge, capable of being launched within a very short time, sustains traffic comprised of all military vehicles including the heaviest battle tanks.

RDE

it is already in operation. surprising you say that.

They ordered the T-90s to maintain the armour strength, and there's no flaw in that train of thought.

yes. that is the mystery!!! when Arjun had proved better than T-90.

Arjun scores in mobility once its in place. Not the whole Arjun fleet will be present at the front, which means that they have to be transported to the front primarily through rail cars.

that is precisely my point. in cold start, men and machines are already in place. where is the question of transport?

Cold Start is about making rapid advances into enemy territory in an effort to overwhelm their defence. How do you expect the Arjuns to cross all those bridges ? If the PA blows up the bridges in place, then the bridges put in place by the engineers cannot take the Arjun's weight. As I said, unless bridging and transportation is taken care of, cold start will depend primarily on the T-90s.

answered already. sarvatra is already there.

Because they hope that something will be done about the problems listed above. DRDO is responsible for the bridging equipment too. They need to complement the Arjun with suitable bridging equipment. Right now, they(the Army) just need to shut up DRDO's daily reports criticizing the Army's judgement.

DRDO has not only given a superior tank but also the supporting bridging equipment too. it is not army's but DRDO's hope that they are inducted and taxpayers are not cheated.

 

[Soham]

inspite of that, Arjun compares better compared to similar heavy tanks.

The Army asked for a better armour.
The Arjun Mk1's weight is 6.5 tons above the maximum weight contained in General Staff Qualitative Requirements.

it is already in operation. surprising you say that.

That is just one of them. It does not represent the majority of Indian bridging equipment. As I've mentioned before(and you have overlooked), the Indian bridges consist primarily of MLC-60 load classification. We cannot afford to start hunting for specific bridges from all corners of the country when they have to be in action within hours.

yes. that is the mystery!!! when Arjun had proved better than T-90.

The Army's decision was correct. Stop trying to prove that I have a personal hatred against the Arjun. I have mentioned before, and will do so again. Arjun is a world class tank capable of smashing any of its immediate rivals.
But unless the logistics can't complement it, its a show-piece.

that is precisely my point. in cold start, men and machines are already in place. where is the question of transport?

Not necessarily. Pakistan and China won't open additional fronts after taking India's permission.

answered already. sarvatra is already there.

Not in enough quantity to support a massive armoured thrust.

DRDO has not only given a superior tank but also the supporting bridging equipment too. it is not army's but DRDO's hope that they are inducted and taxpayers are not cheated.

I do not deny Arjun's superiority.
The taxpayers will be cheated if the Army invests in an exquisite exhibition piece.

 

[nitesh]

hmm so the arjun debate started again

guys let's accept it it's a mess from developer as well as user side. Same as LCA story

 

[ppgj]

The Army asked for a better armour.

that is why Kanchan armour came -

Protection

All round protection from anti-tank ammunition is achieved by t~e newly developed KANCHAN armour to a degree much higher than available in present generation tanks. The high degree of immunity is achieved by.

* The computerised design and simulation
* A fabricated turret housing lightweight compact KANCHAN armour
* Careful dimensioning of wall through optimal slopes and angles
* A low silhouette

Main Battle Tank

The Arjun Mk1's weight is 6.5 tons above the maximum weight contained in General Staff Qualitative Requirements.

first you said weight and width requirement was not given by the army. i gave you a link proving the weight and width requirements were infact given by the army.

now you say this. do prove it.

if that was the case then why are they inducting?? infact some regiments are already in place!!

That is just one of them. It does not represent the majority of Indian bridging equipment. As I've mentioned before(and you have overlooked), the Indian bridges consist primarily of MLC-60 load classification. We cannot afford to start hunting for specific bridges from all corners of the country when they have to be in action within hours.

now everytime some new stuff is created, supporting equipment is implicit and acted upon. you keep speaking of MLC. elaborate on this MLC-60 please.

The Army's decision was correct. Stop trying to prove that I have a personal hatred against the Arjun. I have mentioned before, and will do so again. Arjun is a world class tank capable of smashing any of its immediate rivals.
But unless the logistics can't complement it, its a show-piece.

my aim is not to prove your hatred of Arjun rather army's. logistics are always taken care when new sysytems are inducted.

Not necessarily. Pakistan and China won't open additional fronts after taking India's permission.

yes. just like india wont take permission from pakistan or china.

you are going off from the subject. i was explaining in a cold start perspective where men and machine are already at the frontlines in shadows.

Not in enough quantity to support a massive armoured thrust.

so what is enough according to you?

I do not deny Arjun's superiority.
The taxpayers will be cheated if the Army invests in an exquisite exhibition piece.

you don't deny Arjun's superiority yet you say it is exhibition piece!!

 

[ppgj]

army has been talking about Arjun being overweight. lets take a look at a perspective ( a good read ) on that -

Let’s start by the most contentious issue – weight. The Army says the Arjun MBT is over-weight. Yes it is if you compare this 58.5 ton (originally meant to be 40 ton) tank with the Russian T-90S (Indian acquired version is called Bhishma) which is 46.5 ton approx. But when you look at the class Arjun belongs to, it is on par (even better) with other contemporary tanks in its class like the American Abrams M1 (69.5T) or the German Leopard 2 (62.3T) or the Israeli Merkava (65T). If you consider its actual ground pressure (weight per sq. cm of ground) it actually is even lighter than the T-90S.

IndiaFirst: Arjun MBT - will the controversy end?

 

[Soham]

that is why Kanchan armour came -

No denying that. But the Kanchan, effective though it is, turned out to be too heavy to trust the tank's timely mobilization.

first you said weight and width requirement was not given by the army. i gave you a link proving the weight and width requirements were infact given by the army.

That's the whole bloody problem. We don't know which GSQR everyone is talking about.
As far as providing the exact figures is concerned, I cannot do that. Those figures are not open source.

if that was the case then why are they inducting?? infact some regiments are already in place!!

1 regiment. The 43rd Armoured Regiment. They are inducting because the no. of available MLC-70 available can support a regiment.

now everytime some new stuff is created, supporting equipment is implicit and acted upon. you keep speaking of MLC. elaborate on this MLC-60 please.

MLC stands for Military load classification.
MLC-60 means, they can carry a max. of 60 tonnes. The Arjun's bare weight is believed to be 58.5 tonnes. A fully loaded tank, with reserve ammo and fuel, along with the proposed ERA(Explosive reactive armour) will lead to the crossing of the 60-tonne mark, leaving only the scarce MLC-70 bridges to support it.

MLC-70 = 70 tonnes max. weight.

my aim is not to prove your hatred of Arjun rather army's. logistics are always taken care when new sysytems are inducted.

The Army is doing what is logical.

yes. just like india wont take permission from pakistan or china.

Ok. So where will the armour pop up from when additional fronts are opened ?

so what is enough according to you?

You will have to ask one of the pros about the exact figures. They need to be enough to support at least eight Integrated Armoured Divisions.

you don't deny Arjun's superiority yet you say it is exhibition piece!!

That's because it can't reach where we want it to, in time.