Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT) Mark II

Damian

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Sir, Front is bit week but MK2 version looks much better protected than MK1 and moreover no tank in world is one which cannot be stopped.
No, but improvements needs to be well thinked out, not based on "hey look this is a nice thing, let's install it on a tank" basis.

If we stick with Arjun and keep on improving it with inputs from men from fields (i.e. IA tank crew), it will become best tank.
Why do you think it will become best tank? This is overoptimistic and false assumption. World will not just stop and wait for you, and world is far much ahead.
 

Kunal Biswas

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You have been here for a long time, You should know our standards are set as per GSQR ..

GSQR are not made from looking world, As you said " "hey look this is a nice thing, let's install it on a tank" basis "..

No, but improvements needs to be well thinked out, not based on "hey look this is a nice thing, let's install it on a tank" basis.

Why do you think it will become best tank? This is overoptimistic and false assumption. World will not just stop and wait for you, and world is far much ahead.
 
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Damian

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GSQR have nothing to do with it. It is just a requirement. This is a task for engineers to meet requirements, but also to do it in such a way, that every weakness is minimized or completely eliminated.
 

Kunal Biswas

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GSQR has everything to do with it, You haven't understood tank manufacturing from designing in Indian defense Industry ..

You dont just go and issue GSQR " hey this is the requirement make me a tank " ..

==============

People who funds and ordered it, Sticks with the project and supervise..

1. Big mantel ..
2. FCS location ..
3. Half thin side Armour ..

All these deficiency are made for something in exchange << These are your words.

GSQR have nothing to do with it. It is just a requirement. This is a task for engineers to meet requirements, but also to do it in such a way, that every weakness is minimized or completely eliminated.
 

Damian

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GSQR has everything to do with it, You haven't understood tank manufacturing from designing in Indian defense Industry ..
And you think it is really that different than in other countries?

You dont just go and issue GSQR " hey this is the requirement make me a tank " ..
Army requirements do not contain all details. Requirements are more about overall performance of vehicle that are required by armed forces. Detailed work starts in design bureau where engineers try to figure out how to meet requirements on a design level. What will work, what will not work etc.

People who funds and ordered it, Sticks with the project and supervise..

1. Big mantel ..
2. FCS location ..
3. Half thin side Armour ..

All these deficiency are made for something in exchange << These are your words.
Sure, but the questions is, why such decisions were made, what was the reason, what was this exchange, and many more questions.
 

Kunal Biswas

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I or anyone are learners on internet, We are not in the business ..

Said that, We can make innocent assumptions not facts ..

Sure, but the questions is, why such decisions were made, what was the reason, what was this exchange, and many more questions.

======================


Means you dont know ..

And you think it is really that different than in other countries?

Army requirements do not contain all details
 

Sridhar

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Arjun Mk.II begins user trial-by-fire
Published August 22, 2013 | By admin

SOURCE: SP's Special Correspondent

It's the most crucial phase for Project Arjun. The new and improved Arjun Mk.II has begun user trials in the deserts of Rajasthan, an exercise that hopefully confirm its usefulness to the Indian Army. With over 90 improvements to the base Mk.I version, the Chennai-based Combat Vehicles R&D Establishment (CVRDE) has been steeped in fine-tuning the platform for the last 24 months, hoping to meet the stringent demands of the Army, a customer who was hard to please with the Mk.I as well. The results of the Mk.II user trials will be crucial to the future of a project that traces its origins to the aftermath of the 1971 war. The Army has placed an indent for 116 Mk.IIs, in addition to the 124 Mk.I tanks already in service with two tank regiments in the Rajasthan sector.

In June last year, the Arjun Mk.II Project Director G.K. Kumaravel was tragically killed near Jodhpur when he was being driven to Pokhran to witness a round of development trials. Still mourning the loss, Team Arjun now has fresh resolve to see the Mk.II put into service with no further delays or slip-ups. The Defence Research and Development Organisation's (DRDO) new Chief Avinash Chander has also placed emphasis on seeing the Arjun pushed into service as quickly as possible.

The Arjun Mk.II is a hugely improved weapons platform compared to the base Arjun Mk.I. This month, the Army will see final trials on many of those new capabilities, including the missile firing capability from the primary 120mm gun tube, the ability to fire additional types of ammunition (including penetration rounds, penetration and blast combined rounds) and explosive reactive armour covering the front portion of the tank akin to the T-90 and T-72 in service. Other improvements include a crucial night-fighting capability (absent on the Army's other tanks as well), thermal imaging, an air-defence secondary weapon, laser ranging, target tracking, larger wheels for greater stability and a more comfortable ride for the driver and tank commander.

While the scene seems set for some successes, the Arjun Mk.II, in reality, is stacked up against huge odds. On the one hand, the Indian Army has officially clarified that the T-90 will be its main battle tank, and that the Arjun will not. On the other, the Army has made no commitment to inducting the Arjun Mk.II in large numbers even if trials are successful, which means there is no guarantee that that the Army will operate a fleet of 240 (124 + 116) Arjuns of both variants. The DRDO in 2008 had appealed to the government in 2008, and is doing so again now, that the Arjun programme as a whole is a dead loss if the platform isn't ordered in a certain minimum quantity. As time has passed, this number has increased. In 2008, the DRDO had calculated that the Army needed to order at least 500 Arjun tanks (in any combination of variants) to amortise costs infused into the programme over decades. Now, the DRDO is of the view that the Army will need to purchase at least 500 of just the Arjun Mk.II to make good on investments in the project. In effect, the DRDO is saying that unless the Army immediately adds 384 units of the Mk.II to its existing indent, the project is unviable, uneconomical and a loss to the public exchequer—a serious issue for a project that has taken so long to deliver results.

"The DRDO has been extremely professional about the Arjun Mk.II, and gone with the user at every stage, accepting the requirement and fulfilling them in a steady manner. It would be extremely disappointing if after so much hard work from all sides, the project is a loss for the country. The Army should feel proud to induct the country's very own tank," says a senior DRDO official, earlier with CVRDE. What the DRDO also has to account for is the fact that the Arjun Mk.II is still far from a fully indigenous machine—more than half the tank in value terms is still imported, including the German powerpack, Delft-SAGEM gun control system and Belgian gunner's main sight. The DRDO has argued in the past that while the percentage of import content is 60 per cent in the first lot of 124 tanks, it would reduce to under 45 per cent with the manufacture of first 200 tanks and under 30 per cent with the manufacture of about 500 tanks. For now, those remain hypothetical figures.

A former DG Mechanised Forces, who oversaw trials on the Arjun Mk.I, says, "The Arjun in any variant is a heavy machine. It is not suited for the terrains it is intended for. It is not a system conducive to strike corps operations. It is an impressive development in terms of the technologies we have been able to build in-house within our laboratories, but the DRDO must not accept that it cannot continue to harp on the Arjun. There are other more pressing solutions to think of, like the Tank-X and the FMBT."

While the Tank-X (an Arjun turret on a T-72 chassis) hasn't been accepted as a viable proposition by the Army yet, the FMBT is still only in the conceptual stage. The Army believes that the DRDO must invest all lessons from the Arjun MBT programme into the FMBT, and ensure that the similar pitfalls are never encountered. For instance, the Army needs light, nimble tanks that can be deployed in deserts, and are air-transportable (the Arjun wasn't even rain-transportable before BEML made special wagons that could carry it—the Mk.II is about 10 tonnes heavier than the Mk.I).

As with any long and arduous indigenous development effort, cross-roads like the ones drawn in the sand at Pokhran throw up critical questions for both the DRDO as well as the Army. For the DRDO, the questions that arise are: (a) Can it reconcile itself with the very real possibility that the Army will induct no more than 240 Arjun tanks? (b) Will the DRDO raise the levels to force the government to intervene on its behalf and force the Army to induct more tanks, thus risking the goodwill of one of its largest customers? (c) Is the DRDO willing to conduct a realistic assessment of its achievements, devoid of rhetoric that the Army accuses it of, and make a clinical plan forward? For the Army, the questions are equally serious: (a) Is the Army really better off without more Arjun tanks? (b) If the Arjun has proven to be a more potent platform than the T-90, why does the Russian tank remain the Indian Army's MBT? (c) Will the Army commit itself to being a more reliable and reasonable partner in the FMBT programme, so the ghosts of Arjun are never raised again?

Arjun Mk.II begins user trial-by-fire | idrw.org
 

Kunal Biswas

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Who ever write this article is really a bashing one, And possible paid one ..

0. There is very little content about the topic the article was meant too, that is MK2 trails..

1. Quoting old statements from Ex DG`s who never saw the final product nor saw what other vehicles incorporated with Arjun regiments..

2. The article just repeating old sentences, Such as not suited for the terrain as its intended for, Which was proven incorrect again and again here ..

3. The FCS, Suspension, tracks & transmission so does gun and Armour are made in India, The engine is the only part that is imported ..

4. Those BEML Arjun rail wagons are used now to carry T-72M1 / 90S also, the older once are replaced by new more robust wagons ..

5. Arjun MK-1/2 both are air-transportable now as C-17 are available ..

6. He also portrait Arjun induction is only for National pride, But more importantly does not mention any part of self reliance in defense industry..


==========================


And why this person intentionally putting confusion and questions in mind of readers ? while there are none ..

The author knows FMBT specs are not ready but comparing with a fully functional MBT, Also siding Arjun with FMBT ..

Then doubting FMBT too , In other way his article is design to promote import lobby..
 

sasi

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Who ever write this article is really a bashing one, And possible paid one ..

0. There is very little content about the topic the article was meant too, that is MK2 trails..

1. Quoting old statements from Ex DG`s who never saw the final product nor saw what other vehicles incorporated with Arjun regiments..

2. The article just repeating old sentences, Such as not suited for the terrain as its intended for, Which was proven incorrect again and again here ..

3. The FCS, Suspension, tracks & transmission so does gun and Armour are made in India, The engine is the only part that is imported ..

4. Those BEML Arjun rail wagons are used now to carry T-72M1 / 90S also, the older once are replaced by new more robust wagons ..

5. Arjun MK-1/2 both are air-transportable now as C-17 are available ..

6. He also portrait Arjun induction is only for National pride, But more importantly does not mention any part of self reliance in defense industry..


==========================


And why this person intentionally putting confusion and questions in mind of readers ? while there are none ..

The author knows FMBT specs are not ready but comparing with a fully functional MBT, Also siding Arjun with FMBT ..

Then doubting FMBT too , In other way his article is design to promote import lobby..
You are right kunal sir. In the name of SP's Special Correspondent what he is doing is write a non-sense article based on 1 or 2 weeks news by twisting the real report. He always quote "according to his source" in many reports. I don't what kind of question is this
(b) Will the DRDO raise the levels to force the government to intervene on its behalf and force the Army to induct more tanks, thus risking the goodwill of one of its largest customers?
 

ersakthivel

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Arjun Mk.II begins user trial-by-fire
Published August 22, 2013 | By admin

SOURCE: SP's Special Correspondent

It's the most crucial phase for Project Arjun. The new and improved Arjun Mk.II has begun user trials in the deserts of Rajasthan, an exercise that hopefully confirm its usefulness to the Indian Army. With over 90 improvements to the base Mk.I version, the Chennai-based Combat Vehicles R&D Establishment (CVRDE) has been steeped in fine-tuning the platform for the last 24 months, hoping to meet the stringent demands of the Army, a customer who was hard to please with the Mk.I as well. The results of the Mk.II user trials will be crucial to the future of a project that traces its origins to the aftermath of the 1971 war. The Army has placed an indent for 116 Mk.IIs, in addition to the 124 Mk.I tanks already in service with two tank regiments in the Rajasthan sector.

In June last year, the Arjun Mk.II Project Director G.K. Kumaravel was tragically killed near Jodhpur when he was being driven to Pokhran to witness a round of development trials. Still mourning the loss, Team Arjun now has fresh resolve to see the Mk.II put into service with no further delays or slip-ups. The Defence Research and Development Organisation's (DRDO) new Chief Avinash Chander has also placed emphasis on seeing the Arjun pushed into service as quickly as possible.

The Arjun Mk.II is a hugely improved weapons platform compared to the base Arjun Mk.I. This month, the Army will see final trials on many of those new capabilities, including the missile firing capability from the primary 120mm gun tube, the ability to fire additional types of ammunition (including penetration rounds, penetration and blast combined rounds) and explosive reactive armour covering the front portion of the tank akin to the T-90 and T-72 in service. Other improvements include a crucial night-fighting capability (absent on the Army's other tanks as well), thermal imaging, an air-defence secondary weapon, laser ranging, target tracking, larger wheels for greater stability and a more comfortable ride for the driver and tank commander.

While the scene seems set for some successes, the Arjun Mk.II, in reality, is stacked up against huge odds. On the one hand, the Indian Army has officially clarified that the T-90 will be its main battle tank, and that the Arjun will not. On the other, the Army has made no commitment to inducting the Arjun Mk.II in large numbers even if trials are successful, which means there is no guarantee that that the Army will operate a fleet of 240 (124 + 116) Arjuns of both variants. The DRDO in 2008 had appealed to the government in 2008, and is doing so again now, that the Arjun programme as a whole is a dead loss if the platform isn't ordered in a certain minimum quantity. As time has passed, this number has increased. In 2008, the DRDO had calculated that the Army needed to order at least 500 Arjun tanks (in any combination of variants) to amortise costs infused into the programme over decades. Now, the DRDO is of the view that the Army will need to purchase at least 500 of just the Arjun Mk.II to make good on investments in the project. In effect, the DRDO is saying that unless the Army immediately adds 384 units of the Mk.II to its existing indent, the project is unviable, uneconomical and a loss to the public exchequer—a serious issue for a project that has taken so long to deliver results.

"The DRDO has been extremely professional about the Arjun Mk.II, and gone with the user at every stage, accepting the requirement and fulfilling them in a steady manner. It would be extremely disappointing if after so much hard work from all sides, the project is a loss for the country. The Army should feel proud to induct the country's very own tank," says a senior DRDO official, earlier with CVRDE. What the DRDO also has to account for is the fact that the Arjun Mk.II is still far from a fully indigenous machine—more than half the tank in value terms is still imported, including the German powerpack, Delft-SAGEM gun control system and Belgian gunner's main sight. The DRDO has argued in the past that while the percentage of import content is 60 per cent in the first lot of 124 tanks, it would reduce to under 45 per cent with the manufacture of first 200 tanks and under 30 per cent with the manufacture of about 500 tanks. For now, those remain hypothetical figures.

A former DG Mechanised Forces, who oversaw trials on the Arjun Mk.I, says, "The Arjun in any variant is a heavy machine. It is not suited for the terrains it is intended for. It is not a system conducive to strike corps operations. It is an impressive development in terms of the technologies we have been able to build in-house within our laboratories, but the DRDO must not accept that it cannot continue to harp on the Arjun. There are other more pressing solutions to think of, like the Tank-X and the FMBT."

While the Tank-X (an Arjun turret on a T-72 chassis) hasn't been accepted as a viable proposition by the Army yet, the FMBT is still only in the conceptual stage. The Army believes that the DRDO must invest all lessons from the Arjun MBT programme into the FMBT, and ensure that the similar pitfalls are never encountered. For instance, the Army needs light, nimble tanks that can be deployed in deserts, and are air-transportable (the Arjun wasn't even rain-transportable before BEML made special wagons that could carry it—the Mk.II is about 10 tonnes heavier than the Mk.I).

As with any long and arduous indigenous development effort, cross-roads like the ones drawn in the sand at Pokhran throw up critical questions for both the DRDO as well as the Army. For the DRDO, the questions that arise are: (a) Can it reconcile itself with the very real possibility that the Army will induct no more than 240 Arjun tanks? (b) Will the DRDO raise the levels to force the government to intervene on its behalf and force the Army to induct more tanks, thus risking the goodwill of one of its largest customers? (c) Is the DRDO willing to conduct a realistic assessment of its achievements, devoid of rhetoric that the Army accuses it of, and make a clinical plan forward? For the Army, the questions are equally serious: (a) Is the Army really better off without more Arjun tanks? (b) If the Arjun has proven to be a more potent platform than the T-90, why does the Russian tank remain the Indian Army's MBT? (c) Will the Army commit itself to being a more reliable and reasonable partner in the FMBT programme, so the ghosts of Arjun are never raised again?

Arjun Mk.II begins user trial-by-fire | idrw.org
Astoundingly stupid article,
A former DG Mechanised Forces, who oversaw trials on the Arjun Mk.I, says, "The Arjun in any variant is a heavy machine. It is not suited for the terrains it is intended for. It is not a system conducive to strike corps operations. It is an impressive development in terms of the technologies we have been able to build in-house within our laboratories, but the DRDO must not accept that it cannot continue to harp on the Arjun. There are other more pressing solutions to think of, like the Tank-X and the FMBT."
1. How did the army officer conclude that the Arjun was not suited for deserts of Rajasthan , which make up half of Indo-pak border there are no british era 40 ton rated road bridges over rivers to cross there,

Also did the DG forgot that IA is standardizing on 70 ton sarvatra bridges for the future?

So how did he conclude that the Arjun was not fit for strike corps duty in rajasthan desert area which alone will need more than 500 tanks?

Is the DG so sure that IA strike corps will never cross the INDO-PAK border in future in rajasthan desert area as a retort to any pakistani aggression in Kashmir?

Also how come the DG was so sure that all british era bridges are capable of withstanding close to 50 ton weight of T-90(with ERA and mine plough included)?,

All western 60 plus ton heavy tanks were deployed in Afganisthan, Iraq, vietnam, combodia and where ever the NATO forces go, How do they do it?

it is a great mystery how the 60 plus ton heavies of all the western armies are operating all over the world in strike corps duties in terrain similar to punjab, gujarath and Rajasthan, while the DG thinks Arjun with 58 ton won't be able to operate there?

A close to 50 ton T-90 can not cross the bridges that can be crossed by a 40 ton T-72 , So both the t-90 and Arjun will need engineering core help to cross these british era 40 ton rated road bridges is my opinion. otherwise the IA should have given a 40 ton weight target for the CVRDE on ARJUN long back.

The answer is there in the correspondent's post itself ---"the 40 plus ton Tank Ex was not accepted by the IA as a viable proposition", Then what is the use of CVRDE focussing on the development of Tank-Ex

This month, the Army will see final trials on many of those new capabilities, including the missile firing capability from the primary 120mm gun tube, the ability to fire additional types of ammunition (including penetration rounds, penetration and blast combined rounds) and explosive reactive armour covering the front portion of the tank akin to the T-90 and T-72 in service. Other improvements include a crucial night-fighting capability (absent on the Army's other tanks as well), thermal imaging, an air-defence secondary weapon, laser ranging, target tracking, larger wheels for greater stability and a more comfortable ride for the driver and tank commander.
2.The correspondent himself accepts that Arjun mk-2 is the only night fighting capable machine in IA. Then how could the army not order it. IA does not hope to fight night battles in future!!!!!, Has the pakistani PM given this guarantee to MMS perhaps,

As with any long and arduous indigenous development effort, cross-roads like the ones drawn in the sand at Pokhran throw up critical questions for both the DRDO as well as the Army.
it crossed all cross roads long time back, now it s a mature platform ready for induction on a large scale,if DRDO has displayed extreme professionalism by making good every requirement raised by the IA(as told by the correspondent himself) then Is it fair on Army's part to not to induct in even 500 numbers and continuing to pour money into updating obsolete T-72s and importing not so state of art T-90s?

Well all the answers for the questions are hiding in this unobtrusive two lines below,
Will the DRDO raise the levels to force the government to intervene on its behalf and force the Army to induct more tanks, thus risking the goodwill of one of its largest customers?
If the Arjun has proven to be a more potent platform than the T-90, why does the Russian tank remain the Indian Army's MBT?
3.how does the correspondent expect DRDO to answer that? DRDO did not order t-90s for IA

Is the Army really better off without more Arjun tanks?
4.Yes , conclusively , recent trials have proven that.

Can it reconcile itself with the very real possibility that the Army will induct no more than 240 Arjun tanks?
5.Why? if after so many years DRDO has given one of the best in class tanks to IA. So why should the author expect DRDO to reconcile with just 240 orders, Strange, that too even before the trials of MK-2 getting over, So what is the hurry for DRDO to reconcile itself?

The motive of the article is to bar Arjun mk-2 from getting 500 plus order from IA , Why?
Will The IA which operates thousands of obsolete T-72 ,suddenly become battle unworthy ,

if it inducts just 500 MK-2s that too even in desert area?

No . The real reason is it will cut down the T-90 order numbers by 500.

So we know the motive behind the article.
 
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Lions Of Punjab

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kunal bhai if that's true , than why is IA looking for T-90 in numbers ?



Who ever write this article is really a bashing one, And possible paid one ..

0. There is very little content about the topic the article was meant too, that is MK2 trails..

1. Quoting old statements from Ex DG`s who never saw the final product nor saw what other vehicles incorporated with Arjun regiments..

2. The article just repeating old sentences, Such as not suited for the terrain as its intended for, Which was proven incorrect again and again here ..

3. The FCS, Suspension, tracks & transmission so does gun and Armour are made in India, The engine is the only part that is imported ..

4. Those BEML Arjun rail wagons are used now to carry T-72M1 / 90S also, the older once are replaced by new more robust wagons ..

5. Arjun MK-1/2 both are air-transportable now as C-17 are available ..

6. He also portrait Arjun induction is only for National pride, But more importantly does not mention any part of self reliance in defense industry..


==========================


And why this person intentionally putting confusion and questions in mind of readers ? while there are none ..

The author knows FMBT specs are not ready but comparing with a fully functional MBT, Also siding Arjun with FMBT ..

Then doubting FMBT too , In other way his article is design to promote import lobby..
 

Kunal Biswas

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I would love to talk more on it but this thread is about Arjun ..

Saying that, I will add Arjun failed in 2005 trails so there was import of foreign tank, But after 2008 what ever imports were done regarding buying tanks was a work of corruption..

kunal bhai if that's true , than why is IA looking for T-90 in numbers ?
 

Dejawolf

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dude thats a pic of the tank ex interior and not arjun. its a smaller tank turret.

DEFEXPO 2004 - Part 2
No, it's about the same size as the arjun turret,
and it doesn't really matter. the main fact here is that the main gun and the stub catching basket are running through the whole center of the turret. also, the breech needs the room to recoil back into. there's no room for a gunner to sit behind the gun.
there's no tank in the world where a crew member can sit behind the gun mantlet.
the gunner sits behind the main sight, as he does in every other tank ever made.
 
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ersakthivel

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What could be the width of tank Ex turret?

is the seating arrangement for gunner and Tc in tank ex different than that of Arjun?
 

Kunal Biswas

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Cannot say may be @sayareakd sir know, It was showed in defexpo once ..

Not different, They are same but more compact as it was placed on T-72 Chassis..

What could be the width of tank Ex turret?

is the seating arrangement for gunner and Tc in tank ex different than that of Arjun?
 
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