Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT) Mark II

[sayareakd]

@TrueSpirit from what we have seen so far, Indian army is not satisfied with any of local products.

 

[ersakthivel]

Armor Basics
some armor estimates of modern tank. it includes Leo and other tanks.

 

[militarysta]

Armor Basics
It has armor estimates of tanks.
it includes that of leopard also.

Whit all respect to Lakowski themself and his work - this is not very realible, and this version is far from truth.
Example about Leo-2

The turret thickness ranges from 1000mm near the corners and 1300mm inthe middle 700mm along the mantlet, composed of a 50mm cover plate +600mm cavity + ? thickness back plate [300—700mm?].

No one diamension is correct in quoted tekst(!)

The same in case Soviet tanks, etc.

Those verion of "Armour Basics" is slighty old, and really not accurate.

 

[ersakthivel]

Armor Basics

The link has armor estimates for many MBTs, including that of leo.

A = Lower hull
B = Glacis
C = Front 1/3 side hull -------------------------------D = Front side turret Side Turret
E = Upper front turret ---------------------------- F =Rear Turret
G = Rear Hull ----------------------- H = side hull
J =Mantlet ------------------------- K = Weakened Zone
L = Front turret corners ------------------------- M = Side Turret


1.5.13.1 Leopard 2A1—A3 detailed armor estimation
A = 350mm KE & 520mm HEAT----------------------------------B = 350mm KE & 520mm HEAT
C =90–100mm KE & 500mm HEAT------------------------------D = 210mm KE & 290mm HEAT
E = N/AF = 70–90mm KE & 400mm HEAT-------------------G = 70mm KE & 400mm HEAT
H = 60–70mm KE & 370mm HEAT------------------------------J = 590mm KE & 810mm HEAT
K = 670mm KE & 1080mm HEAT--------------------------------*L = 570mm KE & 830mm HEAT
M = 210mm KE & 290mm HEAT*)

gun sight area is 610mm KE. & 890mm HEAT If leo has a Los thickness behind the main sigh as 890 mm. How come ARJUN which was modeled on Leo will have a LOS thickness behind main sight of 350 mm as claimed by some posters he



5.4.1 T-80U
A = 210mm KE & HEAT
B = 520mm KE & 570mm HEAT
C = 70–120mm KE & 210 – 260mm HEAT
D = 400mm KE & 510mm HEAT
E = 280–290mm KE & 370–410mm HEAT
F =110–140mm KE & 180–270mm HEAT
G = 60mm KE & 300–400mm HEAT
H = 70–120mm KE &~ 210 – 260mm HEAT
J =470mm KE & 730mm HEAT
K = 490mm KE & 520mm HEAT
L = 480mm KE & 640mm HEAT
M = 260mm KE & 340mm HEAT


1.5.4.2 T–80UM–1 with K–5


A = 240mm KE & 380mm HEAT
B =680–720mm KE & 960–1040mm HEAT
C = 90–140mm KE & 510 – 560mm HEAT
D = 420–640mm KE & 680–850mm HEAT
E = 350–390mm KE & 560–940mm HEAT
F =110–140mm KE & 180–270mm HEAT
G = 60mm KE & 300–400mm HEAT
H = 70–120mm KE &~ 210 – 260mm HEAT
J =560–580mm KE & 940–1060mm HEAT
K = 640–660mm KE & 1080–1120mm HEAT
L = 660–680mm KE & 1100–1140mm HEAT
M = 280mm KE & 340mm HEATK-5 coverage seems to be about 60%, the T-80 without K-5 looks a lot like the T-72BVwith K-1

1.5.5 General armor description: T-84

The T-84 uses the same hull as the T-80U, but features a new welded turret.The maximum armor thickness of this turret is probably similar to the T-80Ufront turret armor, which is reported to be 815mm thick and the insert isprobably similar to the T-90 with ~380mm LOS insert thickness suggested.The turret is welded and probably similar to the T-80UM with an insert of TE0.71 & 0.9. Based on the assumption of welded RHA plates,The angles on the T-84 seems close to the T-80 and therefore the 'T-80UM'K-5 numbers apply.

1.5.5.1 T-84 detailed armor estimation

A = 240mm KE & 380mm HEAT
B =680–720mm KE & 960–1040mm HEAT
C = 90–140mm KE & 510 – 560mm HEAT
D = 420mm KE & 680mm HEAT
E = 500–670mm KE & 740–1160mm HEAT
F =110–130mm KE & 270–350mm HEAT
G = 60mm KE & 300–400mm HEAT
H = 70–120mm KE &~ 210 – 260mm HEAT
J =620–640mm KE & 940–1060mm HEAT
K = 740–760mm KE & 1080–1120mm HEAT
L = 720–740mm KE & 1040–1080mm HEAT
M = 280mm KE & 340mm HEAT

 

[ersakthivel]

Whit all respect to Lakowski themself and his work - this is not very realible, and this version is far from truth.
Example about Leo-2

No one diamension is correct in quoted tekst(!)

The same in case Soviet tanks, etc.

Those verion of "Armour Basics" is slighty old, and really not accurate.

LEO 2A5 has gun sight area is 900–920mm KE. & 1380mm HEAT according to armor basic . Do you agree or not?

Leo 2A1 has protection of behind gun sight area is 610mm KE. & 890mm HEAT as per the website.

If leo has a Los thickness behind the main sigh as 890 mm. How come ARJUN which was modeled on Leo will have a LOS thickness behind main sight of 350 mm as claimed by some posters here?

 

[ersakthivel]

The Kanchan Armor - Frontier India

In 1980's the Kanchan composite had a composition of ceramic, alumina, fiber glass and some other such materials mixed. The RHA tried out had two thicknesses, i.e. a 350 mm plate and a 315 m plate. However these two plates had the same weight as a 120mm RHA. Hence it is said that Kanchan armor is more volume at same weight. The anti-tank munitions have problems in penetrating denser mass.
This is the time when the Russian Tank T-72 imported by Indian Army could not penetrate the Kanchan Armor protected Arjun Tank , with APFDS at point blank range. Subsequently, the debate took place if the Russians had supplied us with training rounds rather than the actual ammunition. As a side note, in January 2000 at Proof & Experimental Establishment (PXE), Balasore, Arjun tank armor defeated all available HESH and FSAPDS rounds including Israeli FSAPDS rounds.
Back to 1980's, after the T-72 incident, a 106 mm RCL gun was tried on the Arjun Tank. 106 RCL's were effective anti-tank weapons those days. It played havoc on enemy tanks in 1971 war. The Kanchan armor defeated that too.
Kanchan armor composition has undergone massive changes since 1980's. The volume of the RHA has been reduced to lesser mass because of better metallurgy. The composite has evolved too and it does not use the 1980's technology anymore

 

[militarysta]

If leo has a Los thickness behind the main sigh as 890 mm. How come ARJUN which was modeled on Leo will have a LOS thickness behind main sight of 350 mm as claimed by some posters here?

1. Leopard-2A0-A4 LOS behind main sight is "only" 650mm LOS

2.Arjun is not copied Leo-2 and LOS is smaller there:

 

[ersakthivel]

1. Leopard-2A0-A4 LOS behind main sight is "only" 650mm LOS

2.Arjun is not copied Leo-2 and LOS is smaller there:

ofcourse I corrected it 610 mm RHA protection against KE and 890 mm RHA against HEAT rounds as stated in the site
I mistakenly quoted the protection against HEAT value of 890 mm as LOS.


You are mistakenly taking the open scoop as the back inside wall of the turret.

These pictures you posted were debated to death comparing the internal arrangements in blue mango film in the ARJUN MK-1 thread irself. So there is no point in going all over it again.

 

[militarysta]

Oh, forgot:

LEO 2A5 has gun sight area is 900–920mm KE. & 1380mm HEAT according to armor basic . Do you agree or notmaybe

No, Im not, Leo-2A6 maybe have circa 700mm RHA vs KE for turret front. Protection against HEAT will be slighty biger.

 

[ersakthivel]

Oh, forgot:

t.
No, Im not, Leo-2A6 maybe have circa 700mm RHA vs KE for turret front. Protection against HEAT will be slighty biger.

I quoted what was on the site, see my post no-125 to check it. not my personal opinion or tape on photo measurement.

 

[militarysta]

ofcourse I corrected it 610 mm RHA protection against KE and 890 mm RHA against HEAT rounds as stated in the site
I mistakenly quoted the protection against HEAT value of 890 mm as LOS.

IMHO not.

I have one quite accurate estimatous about Leo-2A4 gun mantled mask for circa 1986, based on sources, known gun mantled mask dimensions and others.
42cm thick gun mantled mask in Leo-2A4 provide protection:
a) 235-272 mm vs KE (APFSDS)
b) 542 mm vs CE (HEAT)
+ "weige" behind it:


More or less for 420mm LOS we have sucht values. Arjun LOS behind main sight is smaller, but armour shoud be more modern then 1986.

 

[ersakthivel]

IMHO not.

I have one quite accurate estimatous about Leo-2A4 gun mantled mask for circa 1986, based on sources, known gun mantled mask dimensions and others.
42cm thick gun mantled mask in Leo-2A4 provide protection:
a) 235-272 mm vs KE (APFSDS)
b) 542 mm vs CE (HEAT)
+ "weige" behind it:


More or less for 420mm LOS we have sucht values. Arjun LOS behind main sight is smaller, but armour shoud be more modern then 1986.

That discussion was done throughout the ARJUN MK-1 thread between page-312 to 316. No need to repeat it here.

 

[militarysta]

It's seems it's needed becouse You cant confirm simple facts about Arjun LOS.

 

[Dejawolf]

Armor Basics

LOL, Paul Lakowski pretty much taught me everything i know about armour estimation. it's his values i used to estimate the armour thickness on the Arjun.
and the document that you're quoting is taken from steel beasts pro PE, the simulator i'm working on.
and why does the arjun not have the same protection behind the sight as the leopard? the reason is simple:

there's a very large bulk of armour right above the gunners head on the leopard 2A4. this bulk of armour does not exist on the arjun:

instead the wall is FLAT.

 

[ersakthivel]

LOL, Paul Lakowski pretty much taught me everything i know about armour estimation. it's his values i used to estimate the armour thickness on the Arjun.
and the document that you're quoting is taken from steel beasts pro PE, the simulator i'm working on.
and why does the arjun not have the same protection behind the sight as the leopard? the reason is simple:

there's a very large bulk of armour right above the gunners head on the leopard 2A4. this bulk of armour does not exist on the arjun:

instead the wall is FLAT.

ARJUN is a bit wider than the leo.

The gunner doesnot sit right behind the main sight , He sits a bit of left of TC ,behind the bulky armor between the gun and the main sight .

SO there is no need for the bulk head.Thats why it is flat.

 

[Dejawolf]

ARJUN is a bit wider than the leo.

The gunner doesnot sit right behind the main sight , He sits a bit of left of TC ,behind the bulky armor between the gun and the main sight .

SO there is no need for the bulk head.Thats why it is flat.

Arjun is wider because it has wider(and heavier) tracks. leopard tracks are 635mm wide arjun ~685mm. the hull center is about the same width.

LOL, no the TC sits directly behind the gunner, just like in a western tank:

you can see the gunners seat on the bottom right and TC seat bottom left. you can also see TC's arm guard in folded position,
in the previous picture he's resting his arm on it. gunners arm guard is slightly in front, and is hidden by the gun breech in the previous picture.

 

[ersakthivel]

Arjun is wider because it has wider(and heavier) tracks. leopard tracks are 635mm wide arjun ~685mm. the hull center is about the same width.

LOL, no the TC sits directly behind the gunner, just like in a western tank:

you can see the gunners seat on the bottom right and TC seat bottom left. you can also see TC's arm guard in folded position,
in the previous picture he's resting his arm on it. gunners arm guard is slightly in front, and is hidden by the gun breech in the previous picture.

Then are you saying that the above schematic diagram in the link is wrong?
Asian Defense: India's Arjun Mk.2 Tank Revealed

 

[Dejawolf]

Then are you saying that the above schematic diagram in the link is wrong?
Asian Defense: India's Arjun Mk.2 Tank Revealed

lol, what? it's obvious in that schematic the gunner sits in front of the TC.

 

[ersakthivel]

lol, what? it's obvious in that schematic the gunner sits in front of the TC.

Arjun is wider because it has wider(and heavier) tracks. leopard tracks are 635mm wide arjun ~685mm. the hull center is about the same width.

LOL, no the TC sits directly behind the gunner, just like in a western tank:

you can see the gunners seat on the bottom right and TC seat bottom left. you can also see TC's arm guard in folded position,
in the previous picture he's resting his arm on it. gunners arm guard is slightly in front, and is hidden by the gun breech in the previous picture.

Then are you saying that the above schematic diagram in the link is wrong?
Asian Defense: India's Arjun Mk.2 Tank Revealed

It is the Tc who sits right behind the main sight. The gunner sits between the gun mantel plate and main sight.

So your 3D model was wrong.

Look where the gunner is and where the main sight is.Then why should there be an armor block before gunner?

he sits behind more than 1400 mm LOS armor.

It is the Tc who sits behind Main sight. And there are no photographs to show where the armor wall starts infront of TC.

There is a huge amount of vacant space in front of him , so that whatever LOS armor can be had there, since he sits 2500 mm back from the front mantel plate.Even if you deduct 700 mm for the main sight an amount of 1800 mm (till the back of his seat) is available for having the desired LOS armor.

main sight is located at the top close to the roof. SO any armor block there won't cramp him at all.

That was why many members here were saying from the begining that ARJUN is shorter and wider than LEO.Even Kunal who was a memeber of IA said that, STGN after a lot of argument accepted that ARJUN turret has a width of about 3100 mm.

Only you and your group of friends are oblivious to this simple fact.

What level of protection is there can not be determined without any photographic evidence.

So your dimensions on your 3D models are just wild guesses without understanding such a simple thing.

This was what I have been saying from the start that your model has some very wrong assumptions.

So it is not like this as you have assumed in your models.

 

[Dejawolf]

Then are you saying that the above schematic diagram in the link is wrong?
Asian Defense: India's Arjun Mk.2 Tank Revealed

I am saying there's something wrong with your eyes if you believe the gunner sits behind the gun mantlet based on that drawing.

It is the Tc who sits right behind the main sight. The gunner sits between the gun mantel plate and main sight.

So your 3D model was wrong.

Look where the gunner is and where the main sight is.Then why should there be an armor block before gunner?

he sits behind more than 1400 mm LOS armor.

It is the Tc who sits behind Main sight. And there are no photographs to show where the armor wall starts infront of TC.

it is the gunner who sits behind the main sight, and here's the picture to prove it.

There is a huge amount of vacant space in front of him , so that whatever LOS armor can be had there, since he sits 2500 mm back from the front mantel plate.Even if you deduct 700 mm for the main sight an amount of 1800 mm (till the back of his seat) is available for having the desired LOS armor.

main sight is located at the top close to the roof. SO any armor block there won't cramp him at all.

That was why many members here were saying from the begining that ARJUN is shorter and wider than LEO.Even Kunal who was a memeber of IA said that, STGN after a lot of argument accepted that ARJUN turret has a width of about 3100 mm.

Only you and your group of friends are oblivious to this simple fact.

What level of protection is there can not be determined without any photographic evidence.

So your dimensions on your 3D models are just wild guesses without understanding such a simple thing.

This was what I have been saying from the start that your model has some very wrong assumptions.

So it is not like this as you have assumed in your models.

Lol, what? are you really this desperate to be right when it's so blindingly obvious that you are wrong T-shirt man?

picture 3 in that compilation shows gunner sitting in front of the TC, and also shows the turret wall, and breech.
show me a picture of the arjun where the gunner sits right behind the gun mantlet. it does not exist. it is part of your out of control imagination.