Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT) Mark II

[HariPrasad-1]

Not doubting the Arjun on protection or BMS or anything like that. Its major problems even in Mk1A form will be the 120mm rifled gun, Indian APFSDS rounds, the armor weakness at the gunner's sight. A K2 or Leo2 wont face these problems.

As far as the overall armor is concerned Kanchan is touted as one of the best in the business.

In addition, ERA/NERA is also installed. Trophy like system is under development It comes with a great protection and Fire power.

 

[Curious droid]

btw, why didnt mk1a had 125 mm smoothbore? why we went for rifiled one ?

Coz,it's the requirement made out by the army to equip 120MM rifled gun instead of smoothbore as it can fire HESH round(which was by the time the favourite round of IA and for the world as it can penetrate any RHA armour at simple cost). The rifled gun can fire variety of rounds including HESH,smoke rounds,apfsds,missiles,HE,TB,PCB etc. Which are spin stabilized. Which in particular HESH,TB,PCB provide edge in handling bunkers (which IA face in Pakistan border)

where as an smoothbore can fire only a limited rounds which are Fin stabilized like apfsds,HE,ATGM,and heat ( As other kind of rounds will not provide much accuracy with fin stabilization method)

 

[Curious droid]

We can't come to an conclusion that the gunner sight is an weak spot. Even the leo2A4 has such design (not to forget that the arjun Mk1 was built in assistance from Krauss maffei the manufacturer of Leo 2a4 ,in other words the arjun tank has been heavily based on leo2A4 Design ) we use DMR-1700,spade and MDN 173 (new classified steel from midhani for arjun tank) steel plates as armour which are atleast 20% (DMR-1700) effective in stopping APFSDS rounds than standard RHA so,it is Highly unlikely to be an weak spot.

Not doubting the Arjun on protection or BMS or anything like that. Its major problems even in Mk1A form will be the 120mm rifled gun, Indian APFSDS rounds, the armor weakness at the gunner's sight. A K2 or Leo2 wont face these problems.

As far as the overall armor is concerned Kanchan is touted as one of the best in the business.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

bina APS ke tank sirf ek tanki hai

 

[vishnugupt]

bina APS ke tank sirf ek tanki hai

It is true that Tanks need radical changes to survive in future conflicts. Now days Tanks became very very vulnerable from all sides.

Either Tanks become totally automatic or a 100 tons monster which employ all sort of necessary measures to counter all types of threats.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

It is true that Tanks need radical changes to survive in future conflicts. Now days Tanks became very very vulnerable from all sides.

Either Tanks become totally automatic or a 100 tons monster which employ all sort of necessary measures to counter all types of threats.

Obviously, the latest gen of tanks is 4th, example T-14 Armata equipped with APS.
So if we ask the same question in era of 1st, 2nd, 3rd gen then what would be answer?
In future we will see drone tanks & very high degree of automation with partial AI & machine learning, 360 degree awareness, auto-targeting, HMDS, UAV interface, etc just like 5th gen jet fighter.
So if any ground vehicle is geting intel from UAV or spy-sats then it can avoid ambush or any kind of hazard & change tactics.
Increasing weight of vehicle's armor too much won't help bcoz it will increase fuel consumption also & reduce mobility like those huge earth-moving vehicles.
Real-time full situation awareness & networking will decide which side wins.
Now when tanks like T-14 have got 4 radars & optical sensors like DAS for situation awareness, guiding APS, targeting then it can detect hostile UAVs & helos, share that data or shoot them down by self. Just like ATGMs can be fired from turret cannon, similarly folding fin drones & short size SAM can also be developed theoretically. Ideally manpads or short range SAMs accompany tanks.
So a good APS can simultaneiously intercept all ATGMs, mortars, artillery, UAV. A crewless turret can hold ammo for APS & RWS in place of 2 crew.

 

[Marliii]

Obviously, the latest gen of tanks is 4th, example T-14 Armata equipped with APS.
So if we ask the same question in era of 1st, 2nd, 3rd gen then what would be answer?
In future we will see drone tanks & very high degree of automation with partial AI & machine learning, 360 degree awareness, auto-targeting, HMDS, UAV interface, etc just like 5th gen jet fighter.
So if any ground vehicle is geting intel from UAV or spy-sats then it can avoid ambush or any kind of hazard & change tactics.
Increasing weight of vehicle's armor too much won't help bcoz it will increase fuel consumption also & reduce mobility like those huge earth-moving vehicles.
Real-time full situation awareness & networking will decide which side wins.
Now when tanks like T-14 have got 4 radars & optical sensors like DAS for situation awareness, guiding APS, targeting then it can detect hostile UAVs & helos, share that data or shoot them down by self. Just like ATGMs can be fired from turret cannon, similarly folding fin drones & short size SAM can also be developed theoretically. Ideally manpads or short range SAMs accompany tanks.
So a good APS can simultaneiously intercept all ATGMs, mortars, artillery, UAV. A crewless turret can hold ammo for APS & RWS in place of 2 crew.

Take anything that the russians claim with the t14 with a grain of salt

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Take anything that the russians claim with the t14 with a grain of salt

See i'm on side of technology, not country or product. Instead of a random talk, some prudent example i had to give where technology is going. If you wanna appreciate K2BP, Abrams, Merkava, L2A7 then T-14 also deserves some credit.
There are many small cool improvements waiting but which country will bring out a comprehensiveproduct we have to wait & see. Whenever a new product is developed by any nation for any wing, their capabilities are advertised showing claims. Only a real conflict can tell reality. But millions of bucks of R&D would definitely have some considerable capability. Everything cannot be a bluff. Atleast they are doing something better than noting.
The era of T-90 like tanks without APS is over. Just like MiGs were called 'flying coffin', non-APS vehicles are coffin on tracks. But some have added APS.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

bina APS ke tank sirf ek tanki hai

The era of tanks is coming to end.
Even if APS is available, it is highly lethal to surrounding infantry, especially hard-kill APS.
As a result tanks armed with APS will have to operate without proper infantry cover.
Also APS are not terribly effective.
Tanks also cause a massive logistic burden.
The era of massive tank vs tank armored division combat as witnessed in WW2 are extremely less likely to happen.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

The era of tanks is coming to end.
Even if APS is available, it is highly lethal to surrounding infantry, especially hard-kill APS.
As a result tanks armed with APS will have to operate without proper infantry cover.
Also APS are not terribly effective.
Tanks also cause a massive logistic burden.
The era of massive tank vs tank armored division combat as witnessed in WW2 are extremely less likely to happen.

That way in other 2 wings the era of ships, subs & jets should also come to an end, but that's not the case. This is only just the start of a electroniccs & S/w driven platforms.
Something has to fight battle out in open & it is not just fragile body of a human exposed. Bullet-proof vests & helmets are not enough.
Current 3rd gen tanks are not suited for unban warfare, ideally a hybrid vehicle is needed. But the potential of a ballistic projectile with speed of 1.5-2Km/s cannot be ignored.
So actually infantry cover for tanks is coming to an end bcoz Abrams, K2BP, Merkava MK4, L2A7+, Type-99A2, etc have already implemented APS. APCs & IFVs are also going for APS.
Armored vehicles are supposed to protect soldier, not the other way.
APS is just a small add-on & hence doesn't cause increase in logistics isuues.
WW era vehicles were just 'tanki' on tracks but they worked in their era bcoz that was something new. Thereafter only things which added till date is armor/weight & shell power.
But in the era of electronics & S/w a new array of possibilities has opened.
Smarter ATGMs & programmable munitions are coming up. So the only way to counter them is APS.
So not just tanks but any ground vehicle like following is suicide unless the area is cleansed of weapons like ATGMs, RPGs, UAVs & contains only troops.

Currently we see IFVs with machine-gun holes for soldiers to fire through. Each soldier keeps an eye on his FoV & fires at threats. But the FoV is very narrow & he can't use NVG or IR properly & hence have to dismount.

The RWS or Remote Weapon System give a benefit of staying inside & firing but still human controlled & lacks integrated 360 degree situation awareness. Inside still things are manual with limited FoV.

In near future we might see a new UCV or urban combat vehicle with say 3 machine guns or grenade launchers mounted on each side controlled by AI & protected by APS. When an enemy will pop out of building to shoot RPG, ATGM, etc, the AI will immediately detect it by optical sensors, automatically lock & may fire automatically or wait for a permission from a touch screen. Instead of 6 soldiers in IFV, only 2-3 people will be required. Watch the following video, it is the future & its testing is happening as we discuss.

Hence MBTs need support from evolved IFVs/UCVs or mount multiple AI controlled compact RWS on their turrets as well. That's the future, a hybrid vehicle, MBT+IFV.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

That way in other 2 wings the era of ships, subs & jets should also come to an end, but that's not the case. This is only just the start of a electroniccs & S/w driven platforms.
Something has to fight battle out in open & it is not just fragile body of a human exposed. Bullet-proof vests & helmets are not enough.
Current 3rd gen tanks are not suited for unban warfare, ideally a hybrid vehicle is needed. But the potential of a ballistic projectile with speed of 1.5-2Km/s cannot be ignored.
So actually infantry cover for tanks is coming to an end bcoz Abrams, K2BP, Merkava MK4, L2A7+, Type-99A2, etc have already implemented APS. APCs & IFVs are also going for APS.
Armored vehicles are supposed to protect soldier, not the other way.
APS is just a small add-on & hence doesn't cause increase in logistics isuues.
WW era vehicles were just 'tanki' on tracks but they worked in their era bcoz that was something new. Thereafter only things which added till date is armor/weight & shell power.
But in the era of electronics & S/w a new array of possibilities has opened.
Smarter ATGMs & programmable munitions are coming up. So the only way to counter them is APS.
So not just tanks but any ground vehicle like following is suicide unless the area is cleansed of weapons like ATGMs, RPGs, UAVs & contains only troops.
View attachment 150162
Currently we see IFVs with machine-gun holes for soldiers to fire through. Each soldier keeps an eye on his FoV & fires at threats. But the FoV is very narrow & he can't use NVG or IR properly & hence have to dismount.
View attachment 150190
View attachment 150187
View attachment 150188

The RWS or Remote Weapon System give a benefit of staying inside & firing but still human controlled & lacks integrated 360 degree situation awareness. Inside still things are manual with limited FoV.
View attachment 150165

In near future we might see a new UCV or urban combat vehicle with say 3 machine guns or grenade launchers mounted on each side controlled by AI & protected by APS. When an enemy will pop out of building to shoot RPG, ATGM, etc, the AI will immediately detect it by optical sensors, automatically lock & may fire automatically or wait for a permission from a touch screen. Instead of 6 soldiers in IFV, only 2-3 people will be required. Watch the following video, it is the future & its testing is happening as we discuss.


View attachment 150193
View attachment 150196

Hence MBTs need support from evolved IFVs/UCVs or mount multiple AI controlled compact RWS on their turrets as well. That's the future, a hybrid vehicle, MBT+IFV.

During any operations tanks don't operation in isolation else they would be overrun.
Their is always infantry operating in proximity to tank.
This infantry is at risk from proximity APS or missile detonation.
During operation infantry is not mounted on tanks.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

During any operations tanks don't operation in isolation else they would be overrun.
Their is always infantry operating in proximity to tank.
This infantry is at risk from proximity APS or missile detonation.
During operation infantry is not mounted on tanks.

I never said isolation. Obviously troops SOP has already changed where vehicles have got APS. The distance b/w vehicles or b/w troops & vehicles have been increased. When troops advance, tanks halt or take different positions.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

I never said isolation. Obviously troops SOP has already changed where vehicles have got APS. The distance b/w vehicles or b/w troops & vehicles have been increased. When troops advance, tanks halt or take different positions.

In urban combat the problem is that it is not always possible to enforce these SOPs due to lack of space. This is where problem start arising and urban combat is where tanks are most susceptible to ATGMs.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

In urban combat the problem is that it is not always possible to enforce these SOPs due to lack of space. This is where problem start arising and urban combat is where tanks are most susceptible to ATGMs.

SOPs & roles are different for different vehicles.
In Iraq, Syria, etc we have seen that MBTs, IFVs, APCs went together into streets till they could, some were destroyed, some made out. So chances have to be taken, no choice.
Troops are deployed or extracted with APCs & IFVs, not MBTs who stand guard at a distance. The shockwave created from their cannon blast can also kill troops. So obviously the SOP would tell to stay away from front of tank.
Technology is moving forward, U & I can't stop it, Americans, Germans, Israeli's, S-Koreans, Chinese, Russians already implementing, DRDO also making it now, so there will be some modifications in SOP, it contains Plan A/B/C as contingencies.
New generation of weapons need new SOPs. It would obviously be foolish to keep troops near an active APS vehicle. U cannot use an open truck either, right?
> Use non-APS IFV/APC with troops & take chances like in battles so far.
> Switch off APS on APC/IFV when troops are deployed/extracted & take chances of getting vehicle destroyed along with troops. If no ATGM/RPG attack during this critical period then switch on APS after deploying or extracting troops. MBTs with active APS can stand guard at safe distance.
> Develop automated RWS w/o APS or in APS-off mode to offload protection responsibility from human to AI-RWS. This may kill an enemy about to fire RPG/ATGM but once fired in case of accurate fire it won't save the vehicle & troops inside or around it.
If u can think of some other option then u can share, but technology won't stop, it is already implemented.
Perhaps a defence journalist can ask in an Expo or to forces what they do with troops around.

 

[Neeraj Mathur]

APFSDS-T VS Armor (AL Alloy, RHA, Tungsten Alloy, Depleted Uranium)# Armor Piercing Simulation

 

[Blood+]

Posts in the last few pages just go to show how naive, clueless, and impressionable fools some people in this forum are.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

APS for our army vehcles is making progress. But transmitter seems to be so small & L shaped reciever antenna array, perhaps an electronics/telecom student/professional canexplain better.
Trophy has octagonal shape & some have circular radar too.
Some EO sensors will also be required to supplement the system.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

New Panther KF-51 MBT

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Inside Panther KF-51

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Future Arjun MBT can/should/will be similar to Panther KF-51. There is an autoloader so the 4th crew is optional which they intend to be a company commander, a drone/loitering-munitions operator or a unmanned vehicle operator.
And all 4 crew stations are role-interchangable, that's the best thing.
Future variants may have unmanned turret with crew of 3 like in Armata or even just 2.