20 KF-21s that they themselves classify as 4.5+ gen. It lacks IWS which is a critical element of a 5th gen program.Sorry, screen froze while making post above. Try again...
India, Turkiye and South Korea all started 5G fighter programmes around the same time (2010).
South Korea yesterday signed a production contract for 20 KF-21. EIS with air force scheduled 2026.
Turkiye had the first flight of its KAAN earlier this year. First deliveries scheduled for 2028.
Where do things stand with AMCA? Is the design finalised yet? A few days ago Indian media ran a story that stealth shaping had been finalised.
Neither KF-21(no IWB) nor AMCA (no supercruise) meet basic 5G design criteria.. If South Korea describes KF-21,as 4.5 G, that's accurate. If India describes AMCA as 5G, that's not accurate.20 KF-21s that they themselves classify as 4.5+ gen. It lacks IWS which is a critical element of a 5th gen program.
They're now planning 3 variants of the KF-21. KF-21EA for Electronic Attack, KF-21EX for a 5th gen fighter and the KF-21 to be offered for export with customized avionics and electronics.
Turkey's KAAN has had a grand total of what- 5 flights till date? Out of nearly 3000 that will be needed to test all test points? And even the prototype that has flown is not even close to the production standard version. It is going to be heavily modified going forward. Anyone who believes it will be delivered by 2028 is delusional. BTW, they haven't even finished the Critical Design Review of the design that was flown. So much for rushing it into flight to meet some political goal.
AMCA design is frozen and CDR completed for all systems and Acceptance of Necessity granted by the GoI's Cabinet Committee on Security which allows for funds to be released for development and prototype construction.
FYI F35 has no supercruise. Also, AMCA with 110kN x 2 (dry 72kN x 2) engines for MToW of 25tons would likely have supercruise considering the huge TWR. In comparison, Rafales have 75kN x 2 (50kN x 2 dry) engines for 24ton MToW.Neither KF-21(no IWB) nor AMCA (no supercruise) meet basic 5G design criteria.. If South Korea describes KF-21,as 4.5 G, that's accurate. If India describes AMCA as 5G, that's not accurate.
I go along with you on KAAN being not being delivered in 2028 but I would not deem it impossible. I have the impression that when Turkiye sets out to do something, things get done.
Something you might be able to explain: if AMCA design was frozen months back, how come some change concerning stealth was reported a few days ago?
around the same time DFI started and it's already DFI's end and fifth generation prj is flying in babu's pocketSorry, screen froze while making post above. Try again...
India, Turkiye and South Korea all started 5G fighter programmes around the same time (2010).
South Korea yesterday signed a production contract for 20 KF-21. EIS with air force scheduled 2026.
Turkiye had the first flight of its KAAN earlier this year. First deliveries scheduled for 2028.
Where do things stand with AMCA? Is the design finalised yet? A few days ago Indian media ran a story that stealth shaping had been finalised.
It's strange to me that F-35 does not supercruise. Yes, according to accepted 5G criteria, it is not 5G.FYI F35 has no supercruise. Also, AMCA with 110kN x 2 (dry 72kN x 2) engines for MToW of 25tons would likely have supercruise considering the huge TWR. In comparison, Rafales have 75kN x 2 (50kN x 2 dry) engines for 24ton MToW.
As for Kf21, its engine and key electronics will be from USA import. So, it still does not meet the criteria of being South Korean. As for KAAN, it is just a loudmouth boasting. Turkiye can't even develop a 3rd gen fighter and suddenly are claiming to develop 5th gen ones are nothing but Snake oil sellers
Oh good to know that super cruise is mandatory for a 5th gen fighter. That means that the F-35 is a 4.5 gen fighter since it can't super cruise.Neither KF-21(no IWB) nor AMCA (no supercruise) meet basic 5G design criteria.. If South Korea describes KF-21,as 4.5 G, that's accurate. If India describes AMCA as 5G, that's not accurate.
I go along with you on KAAN being not being delivered in 2028 but I would not deem it impossible. I have the impression that when Turkiye sets out to do something, things get done.
Something you might be able to explain: if AMCA design was frozen months back, how come some change concerning stealth was reported a few days ago?
That shortcoming seems like a serious one to me. Could flying supersonic contribute to the very high CPFH of F-35?For the F-35, as opposed to the F-22 where supersonic flight is baked into its tactics, the ability to fly supersonic is more of a “break glass in case of emergency” feature, said Bryan Clark, an analyst with the Hudson Institute and a retired naval officer.
“Supersonic flight is not a big feature of the F-35,” Clark said. “It’s capable of it, but when you talk to F-35 pilots, they’ll say they’d fly supersonic in such limited times and cases that — while having the ability is nice because you never know when you are going to need to run away from something very fast — it’s just not a main feature for their tactics.”
Supercruise is not really efficient. Yes, it is efficient compared to using afetrburner. But if few minutes of time is not really such a big constraint, it is better to go at 0.8-0.9 Mach speed than at 1.1-1.2 Mach speed in terms of range. When objects move close to the speed of sound or cross it (0.9+ Mach), the drag forces increase exponentially causing fuel efficiency to drop significantly. The plane will quickly run out of fuel which is not desirable.To quote from your link
That shortcoming seems like a serious one to me. Could flying supersonic contribute to the very high CPFH of F-35?
The term 5G was invented by LM, wasn't it, to encompass the attributes offered by the next generation F-22 that were not found on other fighters?
Supercruise is most useful in range extension when you want to get from A to B quickly, isn't it? If you need to run away from a threat and you have afterburner, I guess you use it.
Oh good to know that super cruise is mandatory for a 5th gen fighter. That means that the F-35 is a 4.5 gen fighter since it can't super cruise.Neither KF-21(no IWB) nor AMCA (no supercruise) meet basic 5G design criteria.. If South Korea describes KF-21,as 4.5 G, that's accurate. If India describes AMCA as 5G, that's not accurate.
I go along with you on KAAN being not being delivered in 2028 but I would not deem it impossible. I have the impression that when Turkiye sets out to do something, things get done.
Something you might be able to explain: if AMCA design was frozen months back, how come some change concerning stealth was reported a few days ago?
The same speed can be achieved by using after burners. Supercruising has a serious drawback - it needs an excessively powerful engine which means its fuel efficiency will be lowered compared to using a smaller engine. For example, F22 has twin 116kN dry & 156kN wet thrust engines for MToW of 38tons. F35 has 125kN dry & 190kN wet thrust for MToW of 30 tons.I am sure that there must be algorithms covering range and speed of intercept of a fixed target at speeds minimising transonic drag. The ability to get somewhere faster without using afterburner must offer some benefit. Apart from anything else, time of exposure to hostile threat would be reduced with supercruise when flying in contested airspace. But I take your point - speed may not be of any importance in many situations.
I am sure that there must be algorithms covering range and speed of intercept of a fixed target at speeds minimising transonic drag. The ability to get somewhere faster without using afterburner must offer some benefit. Apart from anything else, time of exposure to hostile threat would be reduced with supercruise when flying in contested airspace. But I take your point - speed may not be of any importance in many situations.
The same speed can be achieved by using after burners. Supercruising has a serious drawback - it needs an excessively powerful engine which means its fuel efficiency will be lowered compared to using a smaller engine. For example, F22 has twin 116kN dry & 156kN wet thrust engines for MToW of 38tons. F35 has 125kN dry & 190kN wet thrust for MToW of 30 tons.I am sure that there must be algorithms covering range and speed of intercept of a fixed target at speeds minimising transonic drag. The ability to get somewhere faster without using afterburner must offer some benefit. Apart from anything else, time of exposure to hostile threat would be reduced with supercruise when flying in contested airspace. But I take your point - speed may not be of any importance in many situations.
You were the one who claimed AMCA wasn't 5th gen because it lacked super cruise.I replied to your post but it did not appear...
Anyway, all these G things - 4G, 4.5G, 4.5G+, 4.5G++, 5G, 5.5G (used by the more deluded media for AMCA) are very subjective and sometimes confusing. What, for example, distinguishes a 4.5G fighter from a 4G fighter? How about a 4.5G++ fighter. How is that different to a 4.5G+ fighter?
Yes, because both supercruise and IWB are held to be necessary for an aircraft to be classed as 5G.You were the one who claimed AMCA wasn't 5th gen because it lacked super cruise.
KF-21 is not considered 5th gen even by it's maker because it lacks IWS and has to carry all it's weapons on semi-recessed stations or external pylons. That impacts it's RCS, which is probably one of the defining factors of 5th gen fighters- that they are designed from the ground up to have RCS reduction with their OML design reflecting that.
KF-21's OML is 5th gen'ish, but the lack of IWS means that even on first day of war type missions, it will have increased RCS as it carries weapons externally or in semi-recessed stations.
Like you I think AMCA will serve India's needs... eventually. Mk1 will do that but I would guess not until mid-2030's onwards. Who can say when exactly? India sets schedules for fighter developments, misses them, sets new schedules, misses those, too, and that goes on and on and on.AMCA is carrying what was learnt from lca mk1 and mk2. It is our plane and it'll serve our needs, we'll not be dependent on majority of parts on the west. Let it take 6-7 years of thorough development. AMCA will solve our problems, not some western gold plated jet. All we should be worried about is timeline of mk2.
Agree.Neither KF-21(no IWB) nor AMCA (no supercruise) meet basic 5G design criteria.. If South Korea describes KF-21,as 4.5 G, that's accurate. If India describes AMCA as 5G, that's not accurate.
I go along with you on KAAN being not being delivered in 2028 but I would not deem it impossible. I have the impression that when Turkiye sets out to do something, things get done.
Something you might be able to explain: if AMCA design was frozen months back, how come some change concerning stealth was reported a few days ago?