AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[johnj]

Are you calling 5th gen an old tech?? Or you think F-35s wont be able to use them?? Man CATS program is being developed to work with 4 & 4.5 gen fighters first. Similarly US will integrate it with F-35 & other 4.5 gen fighters before NGAD, China with J-20, J-16 etc and Russia with Su-57, Su-35 etc. India, tempest partners & scaf partners will first integrate it with 4.5 gen fighters then with their 5.5 fighters AMCA, Tempest & NGF

5th gen current tech, 4.5 and below old tech. It is not about CATS, but what after CATS, what I'm saying tech a gen ahead of CATS, still every one[users/makers] trying to figure out what, and it depends on user, and we are not in the race, but we[drdo/hal/private] doing R&D on those tech. For your knowledge CATS can used by next gen-6th, current gen- 5th, previous gen- 4.5 and 4th, fighter jets. Good thing they are still considering human inside next gen jet, and some still wounder why ?

 

[Arpuster]

5th gen current tech, 4.5 and below old tech. It is not about CATS, but what after CATS, what I'm saying tech a gen ahead of CATS, still every one[users/makers] trying to figure out what, and it depends on user, and we are not in the race, but we[drdo/hal/private] doing R&D on those tech. For your knowledge CATS can used by next gen-6th, current gen- 5th, previous gen- 4.5 and 4th, fighter jets. Good thing they are still considering human inside next gen jet, and some still wounder why ?

You are not saying anything ahead of CATS. There will be autonomous combat capabilities in CATS and other similar programs elsewhere. 5th gen tech is current tech only for US. No other one has fully developed 5th gen tech so its still future for everbody else. Only US has figured out what will be 6th gen tech and and working on it.
Thanks but I already know whatever knowledge you are giving but you seems to be confused.

 

[johnj]

You are not saying anything ahead of CATS. There will be autonomous combat capabilities in CATS and other similar programs elsewhere. 5th gen tech is current tech only for US. No other one has fully developed 5th gen tech so its still future for everbody else. Only US has figured out what will be 6th gen tech and and working on it.
Thanks but I already know whatever knowledge you are giving but you seems to be confused.

Funny thing is autonomous combat capabilities already their in current gen drone, so you can do same with manned, so the difference is - autonomous combat capabilities of 6th gen Vs others, and each user differ with it, so very hard to say, Nope, none of them have any idea about 6th gen. one wants space plane, other ai dogfighter with long range, another self healing one, also one supersonic killing machine and goes on, good thing is they're keeping human pilot option, autonomous combat capabilities including offencive is already there in US drones, nothing new and many more. Each countries developing 6th gen according to their need, Russia and China done a lots of anti stealth research, US not so much, in other words Russia and China having some idea and pictures of 6th gen, US take some time, USAF using some F35 for aggressor, and B21 under development, which results give some ideas about USAF 6th gen, USN case don't know.[Usaf build a 6th gen to identify it needs, and it take some time] I don't have a lots of idea about UK and EU ones, UK may give more info once they develop AESA for their eft, French having partner issues.
6th gen capable of beating 5th gen like 5th gen vs 4th gen[f22 vs 4.5 gen].

 

[Arpuster]

Funny thing is autonomous combat capabilities already their in current gen drone, so you can do same with manned, so the difference is - autonomous combat capabilities of 6th gen Vs others, and each user differ with it, so very hard to say, Nope, none of them have any idea about 6th gen. one wants space plane, other ai dogfighter with long range, another self healing one, also one supersonic killing machine and goes on, good thing is they're keeping human pilot option, autonomous combat capabilities including offencive is already there in US drones, nothing new and many more. Each countries developing 6th gen according to their need, Russia and China done a lots of anti stealth research, US not so much, in other words Russia and China having some idea and pictures of 6th gen, US take some time, USAF using some F35 for aggressor, and B21 under development, which results give some ideas about USAF 6th gen, USN case don't know.[Usaf build a 6th gen to identify it needs, and it take some time] I don't have a lots of idea about UK and EU ones, UK may give more info once they develop AESA for their eft, French having partner issues.
6th gen capable of beating 5th gen like 5th gen vs 4th gen[f22 vs 4.5 gen].

Sorry but you are confused about autonomous capabilities and you seems to be misinformed about 6th generation fighters. Also you are confusing between 6th technologies and 6 th gen fighter programs.

 

[johnj]

Sorry but you are confused about autonomous capabilities and you seems to be misinformed about 6th generation fighters. Also you are confusing between 6th technologies and 6 th gen fighter programs.

Mybe.
6th gen fighter define 6th gen tech, still no 6th gen flying, it is easy to get confused, and it normal, the issue is most of the people only follow usaf tech, correction usa tech and forget about rest. Russia is the first country to say about 6th gen, followed by usa and eu.
Autonomous capabilities - autonomous capabilities landing capability, autonomous capabilities takeoff capability, autonomous capabilities - travelling, autonomous capabilities - target acquiring, autonomous capabilities - refueling, autonomous capabilities - carrier landing, autonomous capabilities - maneuvering,
autonomous capabilities - flying in formation, autonomous capabilities -evading, autonomous capabilities - offensive, here offensive done only for missiles. AI is different. Now combine some of them with AI, it comes closer to 6th gen - just a thought,you are right I'm confused. According to Russia & US their fifth gen having AI. One thing I know USAF want a autonomous dogfighter[first] and they developed 6th gen prototype[second] and later f35 aggressor jet[third].
In the case of AMCA it use AI, autonomous capabilities, plus DEW etc which comes under 5.5 gen, its like AESA tech of USA, one for 4th gen and other for 5th gen.Still confused with AMCA engine and stealth signature/material.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Whatever UCAV programs people talk about any country, is all waste if the UCAV cannot formation-fly without collision. And there are multiple combat formations which the UCAV group just like real pilots should be able to change immediately upon command by human lead pilot or remotely. We are easily 15-20 years away from such capability, may be 30 years. When AMCA MK1 itself requires modifications & MK2 improved plan is announced then what to say about UCAV which is only in exhibit & scaled-down taxi phase like some RC toy.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Whatever UCAV programs people talk about any country, is all waste if the UCAV cannot formation-fly without collision.
And there are multiple combat formations which the UCAV group just like real pilots should be able to change immediately upon command by human lead pilot or remotely. We are easily 15-20 years away from such capability, may be 30 years. When AMCA MK1 itself requires modifications & MK2 improved plan is announced then what to say about UCAV which is only in exhibit & scaled-down taxi phase like some RC toy.

It is called drone swarm. It is already a reality.
The reason current generation of UCAV don't fly in formation is because their is no tactical advantage of doing so.
Multiple combat formations UCAV will be a reality for high UCAVs like CATS warrior.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

It is called drone swarm. It is already a reality.
The reason current generation of UCAV don't fly in formation is because their is no tactical advantage of doing so.
Multiple combat formations UCAV will be a reality for high UCAVs like CATS warrior.

I would like to avoid using the word "drone", it might confuse some people. Drone swarming light show is very easy but UCAV swarming is totally different.
The reason why current generation of small UCAVs like MQ-9 Reaper, etc don't fly in formation is bcoz they simply don't have the capability. They are just used for ground strike where bigger SAMs are not there but can be easily shot down by manpads.
The real UCAVs are still being tested by USA, Russia, China, etc. it should be able to dogfight & do everything which a human pilot can do, just better. Just like in human pilot formation flight the pilots have to be very well trained & on constatnt watch on their proximity to the reference jet, similarly in case of UCAV formation also additional day-night EO cameras & proximity sensors will be required all around the UCAV body to watch the proximity. That means additional avionics code & auxilliary equipment. For easy undrstanding, it is similar to a Tesla car but more complex in 3D sky than a horizontal road.
Big UCAV like X-47 or S-70 Okhotnik, they won't fly individualy in full blown war but there will be waves of formations on both sides of border.
The current remote cockpit of small UAVs are just a couple of screens in a container but the bigger UCAVs will require a VR kind of simulators or with panoramic bubble screens.
I also wonder why CATS look like AVIC Cloud Shadow, EADS Barracuda, Kratos XQ-58 Valkyrie.

 

[SARTHAK]

I would like to avoid using the word "drone", it might confuse some people. Drone swarming light show is very easy but UCAV swarming is totally different.
The reason why current generation of small UCAVs like MQ-9 Reaper, etc don't fly in formation is bcoz they simply don't have the capability. They are just used for ground strike where bigger SAMs are not there but can be easily shot down by manpads.
The real UCAVs are still being tested by USA, Russia, China, etc. it should be able to dogfight & do everything which a human pilot can do, just better. Just like in human pilot formation flight the pilots have to be very well trained & on constatnt watch on their proximity to the reference jet, similarly in case of UCAV formation also additional day-night EO cameras & proximity sensors will be required all around the UCAV body to watch the proximity. That means additional avionics code & auxilliary equipment. For easy undrstanding, it is similar to a Tesla car but more complex in 3D sky than a horizontal road.
Big UCAV like X-47 or S-70 Okhotnik, they won't fly individualy in full blown war but there will be waves of formations on both sides of border.
The current remote cockpit of small UAVs are just a couple of screens in a container but the bigger UCAVs will require a VR kind of simulators or with panoramic bubble screens.
I also wonder why CATS look like AVIC Cloud Shadow, EADS Barracuda, Kratos XQ-58 Valkyrie.

swarm already worked by "new space research" and work is in advance stages, nsr is startupos

 

[HariPrasad-1]

That doesn't make those features of standard for 5.5th gen aircraft.
Take example of AESA radar. It is a 5th gen technology however almost all 4th aircraft field it. These aircraft are generally termed 4.5th gen.

5th generation planes will have AESA but they will have GAN based AESA and not GAAR based AESA. Former will be much more capable of detecting the object than later.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

swarm already worked by "new space research" and work is in advance stages, nsr is startupos

I'm talking about swarm of big UCAVs, not RC drones. We don't have any UCAV like X-47 or S-70 nor they have demonstrated auto formation flyinng, then which work & advanced stage are u mentioning?

 

[Arpuster]

I'm talking about swarm of big UCAVs, not RC drones. We don't have any UCAV like X-47 or S-70 nor they have demonstrated auto formation flyinng, then which work & advanced stage are u mentioning?

Big UCAVs wjich you are talking about are as expensive as fighter jets so they wont be used as swarms but they will rather launch or control swarms of smaller cheaper UCAVs. However, those big UCAVs will work in groups. CATS warrior, Ghatak, FUFA are under development.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Big UCAVs wjich you are talking about are as expensive as fighter jets so they wont be used as swarms but they will rather launch or control swarms of smaller cheaper UCAVs. However, those big UCAVs will work in groups. CATS warrior, Ghatak, FUFA are under development.

I'm not talking about loitering munitions or the cost factor. I already said those are like RC drones & have been tested worldwide. All u need to do with those is use GPS, INS & maintain sufficient gap. A smart phone has GPS & accelerometer.
Please give close example of current UAVs which u would like to launch from a jet fighter like MKI & what capability u would wan't in them. Theoretically u can launch a small UCAV like a cruise missile or AShM but in the end they are loitering munitions only for ground strike. They themselves are small, they can't launch a 12ft AAM or dogfight with gun.
I'm talking about unmanned wingmen which will fly in group or with a manned lead jet. That requires proximity sensors & real-time instantanious IFF todifferentiate b/w red/blue team, otherwise u hav to maintain gap of few Kms b/w them to avoid collision, that's not feasible. U can't use them like stand-alone F-117 or B-2. In a small conflict like Balakot also Pak launched 20+ jets. U simply can't avoid a merge & "furrball".
So CATS, Ghatak, FUFA are also the size of atleast LCA. "under dvelopment" carries a meaning only when mentioned with approximate timeline. We are atleast 10-15 years behind Russia & USA in UCAV tech, and i mean a real big genuine UCAV, not a drone, ground strike UAV or loitering munition.

 

[SARTHAK]

Big UCAVs wjich you are talking about are as expensive as fighter jets so they wont be used as swarms but they will rather launch or control swarms of smaller cheaper UCAVs. However, those big UCAVs will work in groups. CATS warrior, Ghatak, FUFA are under development.

yes absolutely , ucav such as s70 or even cats cannot be used for swarms , swarms basically consists of quadcopter(vtol) or small fixed wing tube launched drones that will not be controlled by anyone once launched , they would incorporate ai to saturate ads and even assume the roles of alternate drone(within the swarm) if the original one intended for a specific role is somehow shot down

 

[SARTHAK]

I'm not talking about loitering munitions or the cost factor. I already said those are like RC drones & have been tested worldwide. All u need to do with those is use GPS, INS & maintain sufficient gap. A smart phone has GPS & accelerometer.
Please give close example of current UAVs which u would like to launch from a jet fighter like MKI & what capability u would wan't in them. Theoretically u can launch a small UCAV like a cruise missile or AShM but in the end they are loitering munitions only for ground strike. They themselves are small, they can't launch a 12ft AAM or dogfight with gun.
I'm talking about unmanned wingmen which will fly in group or with a manned lead jet. That requires proximity sensors & real-time instantanious IFF todifferentiate b/w red/blue team, otherwise u hav to maintain gap of few Kms b/w them to avoid collision, that's not feasible. U can't use them like stand-alone F-117 or B-2. In a small conflict like Balakot also Pak launched 20+ jets. U simply can't avoid a merge & "furrball".
So CATS, Ghatak, FUFA are also the size of atleast LCA. "under dvelopment" carries a meaning only when mentioned with approximate timeline. We are atleast 10-15 years behind Russia & USA in UCAV tech, and i mean a real big genuine UCAV, not a drone, ground strike UAV or loitering munition.

GHATAK will be "miniature b2" only bombing purpuses , CATS is UCAV that will be controlled by tejas mk2 , I recently asked Hvt about progress on CATS ,he said that "due to nature of the project it is better to keep it under wraps" the timeline is 2026 for production, nothing can be said about FUFA ,we don't even know if it is a ucav or fighter jet

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

yes absolutely , ucav such as s70 or even cats cannot be used for swarms , swarms basically consists of quadcopter(vtol) or small fixed wing tube launched drones that will not be controlled by anyone once launched , they would incorporate ai to saturate ads and even assume the roles of alternate drone(within the swarm) if the original one intended for a specific role is somehow shot down

That's bcoz the automation technology is new & small things have to be experimented 1st. I think u r taking the word "swarm" too literally which is used for birds hence for bird sized drones & loitering munitions (which i'm not talking about here) but you can use synonymous words like swarm, group, team, formation, etc. Whether it was WW, Gulf War, aircrafts have flown in waves of groups, formations, etc & 1 day UCAVs will be flying like that but their full capability is not ripe yet.

Above pic is with a lead control jet but apparently next step would be to simply give them objective instructions. They will do the flying & even regrouping on their own but any kind of instructions can be given to them as long as they are reachable. In age of satellite & networked communication, a dedicated control jet could be just a stopgap or redundant measure. A UAV should be able to recieve data & instructions from any source like satellite, AWACS, fighter jets, ground units, ships, submarines.

Atleast USA has tested automatic refuelling based on camera. So that proves the proximity logic processing. For automated formation flying we need more cameras & proximity sensors on wingtips, nose, chin, rudder & belly. The functionality can be added to DAS also to reduce # of additional cameras required.

The same automation has been implemented on the refuelling tanker side also.

You can check the following 10 years old video how computer engineers teach or program computers of aircrafts.

GHATAK will be "miniature b2" only bombing purpuses , CATS is UCAV that will be controlled by tejas mk2 , I recently asked Hvt about progress on CATS ,he said that "due to nature of the project it is better to keep it under wraps" the timeline is 2026 for production, nothing can be said about FUFA ,we don't even know if it is a ucav or fighter jet

The BWB (Blended Wing Body) design has lower RCS hence it can be used for recon, SEAD/DEAD but that's just A-G capability. The RF & EO sensors in IADS domain are maturing a lot that a dedicated stealth bomber UAV or UBAV might be a costly & risky proposition. Once it is spotted or detected then it will be shot down easily. Enemy fighter jets, attack helos can also attack UCAVs. Hence to survive IADS/SAM & A/c, groups of UCAVs with regrouping capability is required like showed above in diagram.
Hence A-A capability is also a future need for UCAV otherwise it is not really a Combat UAV but just a ground strike UAV. Just like in manned domain 1st came the dedicated role jets then the MRCA, similarly in unmanned domain also we are seeing ground strike UAVs, some have stinger firing capability. Next step is to develop radar, EW, A-A weapons, proximity formation flight so that they don't need manual i/p by joystick.

The airframe design of CATS, MQ-28 Ghost Bat, Kratos XQ-58 Valkyrie, etc are very similar, so there is nothing to keep under wraps. Technically graduated people can comprehend & anticipate a lot of things. Either you wan't a stealth UCAV or regular one. Stealth UCAV also need IWB with sufficient weapons. Rest only addition is complete self flight, grouping & engagement capability.
Technically there is no diff. b/w UCAV & fighter jet otherwise the UAV is a UBAV not UCAV. So FUFAji have to be a UCAV.

 

[Megalomaniac]

AERODYNAMICS PERFORMANCE
RELATED PARAMETERS
-------------------------------------------------------​

T/W Ratio of AMCA
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

• 1.11 in case of initial GE F-414 engine.
• 1.24 in case of indigenous 110 kN engine.
• 1.41 in case of indigenous 125 kN engine.

Wing Loading of AMCA
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

• 327 kg/m2

These are insane numbers for a 5th generation stealth fighter. It is clear that AMCA will be best in terms of manoeuvrability amongst all 5th generation aircrafts. These combination is even better than some of the frontline heavy and medium fighters. Only fighter which excels is Eurofighter Typhoon. ​

​

Tejas Mk.1/1A has the best Wing Loading, i.e., 255 kg/m2 in all weight class. In medium weight class, Gripen NG tops with 283 kg/m2 WL which will be beaten by Tejas Mk.2 with 257 kg/m2 WL. In stealth platform, AMCA is at the top beating F-22 Raptor and Su-57 Felon.​

 

[THESIS THORON]

AERODYNAMICS PERFORMANCE
RELATED PARAMETERS
-------------------------------------------------------​

T/W Ratio of AMCA
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

• 1.11 in case of initial GE F-414 engine.
• 1.24 in case of indigenous 110 kN engine.
• 1.41 in case of indigenous 125 kN engine.

Wing Loading of AMCA
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

• 327 kg/m2

These are insane numbers for a 5th generation stealth fighter. It is clear that AMCA will be best in terms of manoeuvrability amongst all 5th generation aircrafts. These combination is even better than some of the frontline heavy and medium fighters. Only fighter which excels is Eurofighter Typhoon. ​

Tejas Mk.1/1A has the best Wing Loading, i.e., 255 kg/m2 in all weight class. In medium weight class, Gripen NG tops with 283 kg/m2 WL which will be beaten by Tejas Mk.2 with 257 kg/m2 WL. In stealth platform, AMCA is at the top beating F-22 Raptor and Su-57 Felon.​

just wish that stealth will be of f35 level

 

[BABAJI321]

AERODYNAMICS PERFORMANCE
RELATED PARAMETERS
-------------------------------------------------------​

T/W Ratio of AMCA
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

• 1.11 in case of initial GE F-414 engine.
• 1.24 in case of indigenous 110 kN engine.
• 1.41 in case of indigenous 125 kN engine.

Wing Loading of AMCA
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

• 327 kg/m2

These are insane numbers for a 5th generation stealth fighter. It is clear that AMCA will be best in terms of manoeuvrability amongst all 5th generation aircrafts. These combination is even better than some of the frontline heavy and medium fighters. Only fighter which excels is Eurofighter Typhoon. ​

Tejas Mk.1/1A has the best Wing Loading, i.e., 255 kg/m2 in all weight class. In medium weight class, Gripen NG tops with 283 kg/m2 WL which will be beaten by Tejas Mk.2 with 257 kg/m2 WL. In stealth platform, AMCA is at the top beating F-22 Raptor and Su-57 Felon.​

What about dry thrust of 110 and 125 kN engines so that AMCA can supercruise ?

 

[Megalomaniac]

just wish that stealth will be of f35 level

Stealth is not the problem. It will be far better than F-35 in stealth. My only wish is that it should be on par with F-35's sensor, electronics and networking performances.