AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

smestarz

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I may not fully agree to your views but there are some of my points.
Like you said but differently, Let us develop AMCA as twin engine version of Tejas, This puts the plane in a nice class such as it will be reliable due to twin engines, have medium-heavy weight which IAF wants, be made of composites and hence cheaper and faster to make, Will give the IAF more numbers in perhaps shorter span of time having MRCA which can handle all roles that Su-30 MKI can handle, Better would be to design this as SHIP BASED PLANE. Modifying a land based plane to carrier plane is more difficult as air frame has to be made strong and also the landing gear, Further the corrosion due to service on ship has to be considered, but when the same plane is modified to be land based plane, there are advantages it can be used even that way or the air frame and the landing gear need not be that strong. So, to convert carrier plane to land based plane is easy, it can even be left as it is (remove the tail hook if you want) and still it will perform, but if you make a land based plane as carrier plane, its same as developing a new plane.

Thus what I would want is like a natural evolution of Tejas into twin engine, But few things in mind
The design should be LO to start with so that in case at later stage we want to upgrade these to 5th or 6th Gen planes, it should be possible, Make it modular, The main focus should be that the plane should be easy to fly, use and maintain. It should be possible to change both the engines of the plane in time similar to Tejas. thus ensuring higher avaiability.



I have often wondered at our mentality. Here we are going as slow as we rediculously could on AMCA being as frugal as we could. And why because we think there is a fleet of 36 Rafales coming in to keep us secure. And we don't know yet if negotiations will conclude even in next 7 years.

I say develop a non stealthy LO version of AMCA with equal or greater capability than Rafale by 2025 and then introduce stealth capability in tranches starting 2030 with super 5 th generation features. Let first batch of AMCA be build entirely with same composite material as LCA and same engine as well. Forget RAM and a TVC engine for first tranche. However keeping the 5th generation esentials( which is already there in basic design) like 'shaping' and internal weapon-bays ( a non functional one in first tranche). Avionics can be readily used from LCA line. This can be certainly done in next 9-10 years if we decide now. Today we are well set to embark on such a journey.

But before anything split HAL into two separate compaines. First one focusing on combat aspect of avaiton namely fighter jets and combat choppers and later focusing on cargo aspect of avaiton namely LTAs, MTAs, HTA and helicopters of all weight class. For this to happen money will be needed. So kill Rafale deal. Let considerable portion of 9-10 billion dollars be spent on modernization of these two companies. These two companies which could be called Hindustan Combat Aircrafts Limited and Hindustan Cargo Aircrafts Limited would certainly do more good for national security than these 36 Rafales if we dare to change way of our thinking. We also need a large fleet of C-130J class multipurpose aircrafts for supporting our troops against any Chinese aggression which is becoming ever inevitable with passage of time. So we should also start developing a C-130J class MTA.

All in all we need to think of national security as whole than just AMCA and Rafale. Lets not keep repeating Nehruvian mistake all the time. Today we are atleast this mature.

PS: Forgive me if my emotions have let me cross into OT. I am too frustrated at our wild goose chase wrt Rafale and complete lack of foresight wrt AMCA.
 

smestarz

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That would mean sacking the top brass of Army and air force.

Realistically speaking if detailed design is frozen today, it will take 5 years from now to roll out first prototype. Couple more years to first flight. Atleast 5 years more for IOC. Now if you bring variables like uncertainty on engine. the timeline could stretch even further. That when we are only developing LO AMCA. Since original plan calls for VLO version the actual timeline will be even longer.

For this reason Government needs to priorities AMCA now. Support it with adequate funding. Make necessary changes in system. But before all do eradicate the people who think India can be a superpower and still be the largest importer of arms.
 

Rahul Singh

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I may not fully agree to your views but there are some of my points.
Please state those so that we can discuss further.
Thus what I would want is like a natural evolution of Tejas into twin engine, But few things in mind
The design should be LO to start with so that in case at later stage we want to upgrade these to 5th or 6th Gen planes, it should be possible, Make it modular, The main focus should be that the plane should be easy to fly, use and maintain. It should be possible to change both the engines of the plane in time similar to Tejas. thus ensuring higher avaiability.
Five years ago a twin engine version of Tejas might have been an option, and yes a good one but now at this point it is no longer the perfect option, specially considering need for a VLO version sometime after 2025. ADA's design team has already completed preliminary design after testing various design models in labs that includes RCS evaluation as well.

What we today need is an unequal force behind project. Say we need engines for AMCA then buy a readily available engine for first tranche. And at the same time negotiate with a foreign house for completing the development of Kaveri K-10 which may or may not be the same company. Don't mix the requirements of one for another and vice versa. Completion of K-10 and development of all required infrastructure for developing any engine (not just turbofan ) in one requirement and having a suitable engine for AMCA is another. Why mix and fix burden on one another and stall both. Atleast this what which seems to be happening.

That would mean sacking the top brass of Army and air force.
Why just blame them. There are more like in civilian attire to blame than in military. Have you not argued with import happy posters here? They just jump of terrace, dance like ping pong ball on any news regarding some fancy foreign origin weapons, which we may purchase. Just look at Rafale thread. They keep on supporting Rafale and have been for over a decade now. Even today they do it without any regard to the fact that PLAAF has already started inducting 5th generation fighter jets. Just recently people were euphoric over possible purchase of T-22M. That is when Chine almost a half decade ago copied a soviet bomber with similar range which is called H-6 whose advance version is called H-6K, which it can produce as many as it needs. And we on other side don't even know how much life these used T-22Ms has left in them that we want to purchase? No one will ever answer how these 6-7 bombers can produce effect of 50-60 H-6Ks that China can field?

You know, examples are in plenty and i can go on and on. But to sum up. I ask few questions. What is that makes China most feared adversary of USA? Isn't it its military? Where does Chinese military draws its strength from, imported weapons or a leadership and an industry (which can provide modern military hardware in time bound, cost effective manner and keep them provided with spares and replacements even during hostilities, without caring if they have to beg borrow or steal)? Can we match such an enemy whose industry can develop two 5th generation fighters, a heavy lifter in 60 ton payload capacity, a medium lifter in 20 tons category, helicopters of almost all types (covering almost all weight class) with purchase of just 100+ FGFAs, 36 Rafales and unknown M-MRCA, all still on paper (even if we manage to buy them what is the guarantee that their suppliers won't halt supply of critical spares during war in the name of not supporting war) and only 30-40 air lifters (to support our troops in Himalays but they are all dependent on foreign manufactures) against Chinese ability to field hundreds of these kinds and also augment their strength at will if the need arises thanks to its sacrifices that paid in the form of Y-20 and in some time will be by the name Y-30?

If we can find honest answers to these questions, i am sure in twenty years we will be able to rival China in true sense. Otherwise! Otherwise, is not even an option. If we don't make us internally strong quickly, please brace to lose Arunnachal Pradesh. And no, these 36 Rafales won't be able to save us, nor will be even 100 FGFAs( even if we manage to buy them in time, which i highly doubt). Only thing that will stand between is 500 AMCA (95 % indigenous), a 55-60 ton variant of Arjun/Arjun MK-4 (but will only come if IA supports Arjun by ordering 500 MK-2s and 500 MK-3s), a S-300 class AAD based VLRSAM etc.

Sorry for OT.
 
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smestarz

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Please state those so that we can discuss further.
Five years ago a twin engine version of Tejas might have been an option, and yes a good one but now at this point it is no longer the perfect option, specially considering need for a VLO version sometime after 2025. ADA's design team has already completed preliminary design after testing various design models in labs that includes RCS evaluation as well.

What we today need is an unequal force behind project. Say we need engines for AMCA then buy a readily available engine for first tranche. And at the same time negotiate with a foreign house for completing the development of Kaveri K-10 which may or may not be the same company. Don't mix the requirements of one for another and vice versa. Completion of K-10 and development of all required infrastructure for developing any engine (not just turbofan ) in one requirement and having a suitable engine for AMCA is another. Why mix and fix burden on one another and stall both. Atleast this what which seems to be happening.
National security is not a matter of option but a need, dire need. IAF top brass never had any vision, at most I would look at them as sheep, the reason is that they lack vision. A good general (and i am using literal term) prepares for the NEXT WAR, and not war that was fought 10 years ago. I see IAF top brass (and Indian leadership) lacking vision and imagination. For example, during Kargil war, IAF was caught with its pants down when it did not have plans, planes or weapons to dislodge the enemy at Kargil. They depended on Jaguars.. which could not be effective in Kargil. We had MiG-29 which IAF chief did not have the vision or foresight to develop into MRCA (till then IAF had purchased and used MiG-29 only as air superiority plane and the plan was that if Pakistani MRCA F-16 ever entered India MiG-29 would attack it. And yes, our attack would be conducted by Jaguar only.) Thus as you see IAF was single dimensional, there are no plan B or C.. and that is when Jaguar did not become effective, they panicked and realised they did not have any plane to strike, Thats when they thought to bring in the Mirage 2000 from Gwalior which were earmarked for nuclear strike duties. Now Mirage 2000 that we had did not have any modern A2A missiles, Actually it just had a gun, and very very very expensive A2G missiles which IAF did not want to waste in kargil. Further it did not have a targeting pod. Thus with haste, HAL and Israeli technicians managed to ramp up some kits and put LITENING pods on Mirage 2000 and some smart bombs. And that is how Mirage 2000 was able to be effective. But what actually was the preparation of IAF for this type of conflict? There was none. They had not forecasted such a scenario. If you see, Kargil was an eye opener, and stupid mistake by Pakistan, had it over blown, India would have had a bad beating.

Then IAF starts to ramp up its ability. and what does it do? It wants to order Mirage 2000 in big numbers. This is a typical decision of headless chicken without using any logic. By this time Mirage 2000 is 2 decade old design, with the manufacturer already closing its line, and is producing a newer plane. But IAF as it is without any vision, wants the older plane only. That time IAF did not think that Twin engine is more important (as it then came out in MMRCA which was fixed for Rafale to win) they did not feel AESA was important. In a nutshell, IAF was buying foreign planes that would have fought well in last war, they were not preparing for the next war like the Russians or Americans. I still dont get it, what is with IAF and "medium weight" I did ask a few serving professionals in IAF and also foreign air forces. They say it might be india specific requirement maybe, but for them its the role and capability that counts. Speed, range, load, ability to manuever, etc etc. The weight is not primary point,
Single engine fighters are usually used for interceptions and protecting vital cities, and areas, being single engine they are cheaper to fly and use and they fly and fight within their strength. They allow the enemy to come into their area and then take them down, this is their strength and also weakness, Because having short range, they cannot intercept a plane which is far from their combat range which is short.

On other hand twin engine planes are heavier, and hence can be put with more heavy avionics that makes this plane a killer, but these being expensive to build and use cannot be used as much as single engine plane as the cost of the sortie will be almost twice as that of single engine plane and availability lower.

If we say that AMCA design is fixed, we still have LCA II design to play with. LCA II can have two smaller engines which has combined thrust say at least 20-30% more than F-414E engine. Having two engines will bring reliability. When I think of an excellent plane., I think about F-5E Tiger. It was a nice clean design, the aim of the plane was to be a good interceptor and later became an MRCA and could even conduct a nuclear strike if required. It was easy to maintain and both the engines could be changed in few hours at most. So my view of the next plane for IAF should be one which is easier to maintain (modular approach) should be capable, cheap to buy, fly and maintain, and should be one hell of a plane



Even today they do it without any regard to the fact that PLAAF has already started inducting 5th generation fighter jets. Just recently people were euphoric over possible purchase of T-22M. That is when Chine almost a half decade ago copied a soviet bomber with similar range which is called H-6 whose advance version is called H-6K, which it can produce as many as it needs. And we on other side don't even know how much life these used T-22Ms has left in them that we want to purchase? No one will ever answer how these 6-7 bombers can produce effect of 50-60 H-6Ks that China can field?
Firstly China is an economic super power whose economy rivals USA. The balance of trade is very much in Chinas favour. China holds as I understand 500 billion dollars worth of US govt bonds, and if they sell it, the dollar will crash. Thus China in a way holds the trigger for killing USA ecnomically. China has a developed industry with excellent research and development facility. When we are finding it difficult to make one project, they have two ambitious products out of which one is already flying. Americans have good quality planes, but China has tbe resources, capability and funds to produce their planes in far bigger number and over run like locusts. Chinese weapons were not sophisticated as they were simple copied weapons. Usuauly their weapons were copied 10 years after Russians produced it, but now they develop their own. They have their own Bullpup assault rifle which is used by their army. They develop and produce their own tanks, planes, ships. And now USA is struggling in this economic push with China, USA economy is very much debt loaded. The chinese economy, not so much. Also importantly China has a stable govt, the leadership changes every 10 years with economic policies followed. But in USA there are different groups about economic policies democrats and republicans etc. USA has a vision but it is getting blurred, China is the county with excellent vision, but they are also losing their way.


You know, examples are in plenty and i can go on and on. But to sum up. I ask few questions. What is that makes China most feared adversary of USA? Isn't it its military? Where does Chinese military draws its strength from, imported weapons or a leadership and an industry (which can provide modern military hardware in time bound, cost effective manner and keep them provided with spares and replacements even during hostilities, without caring if they have to beg borrow or steal)? Can we match such an enemy whose industry can develop two 5th generation fighters, a heavy lifter in 60 ton payload capacity, a medium lifter in 20 tons category, helicopters of almost all types (covering almost all weight class) with purchase of just 100+ FGFAs, 36 Rafales and unknown M-MRCA, all still on paper (even if we manage to buy them what is the guarantee that their suppliers won't halt supply of critical spares during war in the name of not supporting war) and only 30-40 air lifters (to support our troops in Himalays but they are all dependent on foreign manufactures) against Chinese ability to field hundreds of these kinds and also augment their strength at will if the need arises thanks to its sacrifices that paid in the form of Y-20 and in some time will be by the name Y-30?

If we can find honest answers to these questions, i am sure in twenty years we will be able to rival China in true sense. Otherwise! Otherwise, is not even an option. If we don't make us internally strong quickly, please brace to lose Arunnachal Pradesh. And no, these 36 Rafales won't be able to save us, nor will be even 100 FGFAs( even if we manage to buy them in time, which i highly doubt). Only thing that will stand between is 500 AMCA (95 % indigenous), a 55-60 ton variant of Arjun/Arjun MK-4 (but will only come if IA supports Arjun by ordering 500 MK-2s and 500 MK-3s), a S-300 class AAD based VLRSAM etc.Sorry for OT.
We thought the military leadership was beyond any doubt, but now we doubt their real intentions, I think perhaps a better way might be to make a nuclear testing and then being sanctioned and then we have to develop everything on our own.. If we have the crutches of help we are never going to develop our own product because countries will be eager to help us to kill our own project. But when there is a sanction, these countries will not be able to help us thus we are really left on our own to be strong. China had such an era when no one would do business with China as it was a communist country and that is when it started to develop. It focused on infra structure, better roads, bigger ports, they built, 6-10 lane highways so that people and products can be transpported fast. It takes just 1 hour to travel to next city which is about 100 kms away. We have this on express way, but we need more like this. A stronger military is needed but for that the economy should be strong to fund the production. If you dont have a strong economy, there is no way a military can survive and then it goes into power struggle and coup. Thus, economic and military progress should go together to achieve it.
 

HariPrasad-1

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Make an Gripen NG class single engine stealth tejas. It should carry 6+ ton payload super cruise at mach 1.2 highest speed Mach 2.2+ and latest radar and EW.
 

vayuu1

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Make an Gripen NG class single engine stealth tejas. It should carry 6+ ton payload super cruise at mach 1.2 highest speed Mach 2.2+ and latest radar and EW.
That would be tejas mark 3 , if say we select ng,and they do give us tot, I think it's tech 's can be used in both mk3 and amca, especially gan based aesa,what are the chances of this happening?

Sent from my SM-N900 using Tapatalk
 

tejas warrior

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That would be tejas mark 3 , if say we select ng,and they do give us tot, I think it's tech 's can be used in both mk3 and amca, especially gan based aesa,what are the chances of this happening?

Sent from my SM-N900 using Tapatalk
If we select Gripen NG.. It will simply kill further development of Tejas. Why ?

bcos, after Gripen NG, SAAB will offer their next fighter slightly before MK3 and IAF will happily accept it.. and process goes on & on.. like Marut way.
 

Rahul Singh

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National security is not a matter of option but a need, dire need. IAF top brass never had any vision, at most I would look at them as sheep, the reason is that they lack vision. A good general (and i am using literal term) prepares for the NEXT WAR, and not war that was fought 10 years ago. I see IAF top brass (and Indian leadership) lacking vision and imagination. For example, during Kargil war, IAF was caught with its pants down when it did not have plans, planes or weapons to dislodge the enemy at Kargil. They depended on Jaguars.. which could not be effective in Kargil. We had MiG-29 which IAF chief did not have the vision or foresight to develop into MRCA (till then IAF had purchased and used MiG-29 only as air superiority plane and the plan was that if Pakistani MRCA F-16 ever entered India MiG-29 would attack it. And yes, our attack would be conducted by Jaguar only.) Thus as you see IAF was single dimensional, there are no plan B or C.. and that is when Jaguar did not become effective, they panicked and realised they did not have any plane to strike, Thats when they thought to bring in the Mirage 2000 from Gwalior which were earmarked for nuclear strike duties. Now Mirage 2000 that we had did not have any modern A2A missiles, Actually it just had a gun, and very very very expensive A2G missiles which IAF did not want to waste in kargil. Further it did not have a targeting pod. Thus with haste, HAL and Israeli technicians managed to ramp up some kits and put LITENING pods on Mirage 2000 and some smart bombs. And that is how Mirage 2000 was able to be effective. But what actually was the preparation of IAF for this type of conflict? There was none. They had not forecasted such a scenario. If you see, Kargil was an eye opener, and stupid mistake by Pakistan, had it over blown, India would have had a bad beating.

Then IAF starts to ramp up its ability. and what does it do? It wants to order Mirage 2000 in big numbers. This is a typical decision of headless chicken without using any logic. By this time Mirage 2000 is 2 decade old design, with the manufacturer already closing its line, and is producing a newer plane. But IAF as it is without any vision, wants the older plane only. That time IAF did not think that Twin engine is more important (as it then came out in MMRCA which was fixed for Rafale to win) they did not feel AESA was important. In a nutshell, IAF was buying foreign planes that would have fought well in last war, they were not preparing for the next war like the Russians or Americans. I still dont get it, what is with IAF and "medium weight" I did ask a few serving professionals in IAF and also foreign air forces. They say it might be india specific requirement maybe, but for them its the role and capability that counts. Speed, range, load, ability to manuever, etc etc. The weight is not primary point,
Single engine fighters are usually used for interceptions and protecting vital cities, and areas, being single engine they are cheaper to fly and use and they fly and fight within their strength. They allow the enemy to come into their area and then take them down, this is their strength and also weakness, Because having short range, they cannot intercept a plane which is far from their combat range which is short.

On other hand twin engine planes are heavier, and hence can be put with more heavy avionics that makes this plane a killer, but these being expensive to build and use cannot be used as much as single engine plane as the cost of the sortie will be almost twice as that of single engine plane and availability lower.

If we say that AMCA design is fixed, we still have LCA II design to play with. LCA II can have two smaller engines which has combined thrust say at least 20-30% more than F-414E engine. Having two engines will bring reliability. When I think of an excellent plane., I think about F-5E Tiger. It was a nice clean design, the aim of the plane was to be a good interceptor and later became an MRCA and could even conduct a nuclear strike if required. It was easy to maintain and both the engines could be changed in few hours at most. So my view of the next plane for IAF should be one which is easier to maintain (modular approach) should be capable, cheap to buy, fly and maintain, and should be one hell of a plane




Firstly China is an economic super power whose economy rivals USA. The balance of trade is very much in Chinas favour. China holds as I understand 500 billion dollars worth of US govt bonds, and if they sell it, the dollar will crash. Thus China in a way holds the trigger for killing USA ecnomically. China has a developed industry with excellent research and development facility. When we are finding it difficult to make one project, they have two ambitious products out of which one is already flying. Americans have good quality planes, but China has tbe resources, capability and funds to produce their planes in far bigger number and over run like locusts. Chinese weapons were not sophisticated as they were simple copied weapons. Usuauly their weapons were copied 10 years after Russians produced it, but now they develop their own. They have their own Bullpup assault rifle which is used by their army. They develop and produce their own tanks, planes, ships. And now USA is struggling in this economic push with China, USA economy is very much debt loaded. The chinese economy, not so much. Also importantly China has a stable govt, the leadership changes every 10 years with economic policies followed. But in USA there are different groups about economic policies democrats and republicans etc. USA has a vision but it is getting blurred, China is the county with excellent vision, but they are also losing their way.




We thought the military leadership was beyond any doubt, but now we doubt their real intentions, I think perhaps a better way might be to make a nuclear testing and then being sanctioned and then we have to develop everything on our own.. If we have the crutches of help we are never going to develop our own product because countries will be eager to help us to kill our own project. But when there is a sanction, these countries will not be able to help us thus we are really left on our own to be strong. China had such an era when no one would do business with China as it was a communist country and that is when it started to develop. It focused on infra structure, better roads, bigger ports, they built, 6-10 lane highways so that people and products can be transpported fast. It takes just 1 hour to travel to next city which is about 100 kms away. We have this on express way, but we need more like this. A stronger military is needed but for that the economy should be strong to fund the production. If you dont have a strong economy, there is no way a military can survive and then it goes into power struggle and coup. Thus, economic and military progress should go together to achieve it.
You summed up quite well. Very little to add.

India does not have a economy of the size of China. But India is a very big market in itself be it civilian or military. We spend billions of dollars annually on importing defense equipment. Some of these weapons are as low tech or simple as a hand gun. Such imports if stopped can not only save us millions of dollars but when sourced from local industry will help us create jobs and boost economy. Boosted economy will result in growing economy and will eventually result in increased budget for armed forces. This is how Armed Forces can benefit themselves by going indigenous. It is for that reason that we need to form a consensus among all stake holders and prepare policy which clearly states what we can import and what we shall never import. This list should see revision in fixed time intervals and number of items listed in import friendly category should always see reduction. Towards achieving this something on lines of Five Year plans should be started which specifies priority areas for current period. Say we formulate a plan for next five year and prioritizes development of some key technologies for a turbofan engine one of which could be super alloys for wet section. At the end of the plan period we may not meet complete success but we will be definitely way ahead from where we are today. In next plan period priority may shift towards developing transmission. In next it may shift towards TVC. So at the end of 15 years, industry would have all key technologies required in the making of a modern turbofan engine. Now contrast it with reality. For seven years we are listening that K-10 will be developed with help from foreign engine house.Even today we don't know when we will sign contract so that work could begin. This is how we are wasting our time by shooting aimlessly. This is what happens when overlook real threats and move without foresight.

As you have also said we need to get out of "Aag lagne pe Kuaa Khodna" syndrome. Then only we can ever realize our dream of becoming a powerful nation.
 

HariPrasad-1

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That would be tejas mark 3 , if say we select ng,and they do give us tot, I think it's tech 's can be used in both mk3 and amca, especially gan based aesa,what are the chances of this happening?

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I am least worried about AESA and other things. I basically want a very potent platform on hand having best maneuvers and acceleration and payload carrying and highest speed. We may get AESA from anywhere or may develop on our own.
 

smestarz

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I think SAAB is done designing its last fighter plane. Earlier the market was huge, but not anymore,
There was a big demand for fighter jets till the gulf war, but then due to rising cost of planes (and technology) the number of planes ordered are very less. The logic is simple, if you develop a plane yourself try to estimate your own market. If any export is there then its a bonus. Gone are the days when planes could sell in thousands. MiG-21 sold about 11500 planes, F-16 in its various forms sold about 4500, MiG-29 sold about 1500 or so, with more advance plane, it can handle different roles and hence lesser nos are required. This is one point that IAF does not really understand yet and is insisting on 42 squadrons. In all honesty 270 Su-30 MKI are more than a match for PAF and few other similar size countries thanks to the multi role nature of Su-30 MKI.
To answer simply, how many combat squadrons did France have before year 2000 and how many planes and squadrons does it have now? I am very sure that there are few squadrons lesser now than before.

What India needs most is
A) Experience to design and build its own plane (we have some with Tejas)
B) To develop a good engine (we cannot to that ourselves and we might need ToT, buying gripen may not help it)
C) We need good avionics package (we are developing ourselves and its going to take some time )

In other areas we are almost there, buying Gripen does not really help our cause for either experience, or ToT of engine or excellent EW suite.


If we select Gripen NG.. It will simply kill further development of Tejas. Why ?

bcos, after Gripen NG, SAAB will offer their next fighter slightly before MK3 and IAF will happily accept it.. and process goes on & on.. like Marut way.
 

smestarz

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I think SAAB is done designing its last fighter plane. Earlier the market was huge, but not anymore,
There was a big demand for fighter jets till the gulf war, but then due to rising cost of planes (and technology) the number of planes ordered are very less. The logic is simple, if you develop a plane yourself try to estimate your own market. If any export is there then its a bonus. Gone are the days when planes could sell in thousands. MiG-21 sold about 11500 planes, F-16 in its various forms sold about 4500, MiG-29 sold about 1500 or so, with more advance plane, it can handle different roles and hence lesser nos are required. This is one point that IAF does not really understand yet and is insisting on 42 squadrons. In all honesty 270 Su-30 MKI are more than a match for PAF and few other similar size countries thanks to the multi role nature of Su-30 MKI.
To answer simply, how many combat squadrons did France have before year 2000 and how many planes and squadrons does it have now? I am very sure that there are few squadrons lesser now than before.

What India needs most is
A) Experience to design and build its own plane (we have some with Tejas)
B) To develop a good engine (we cannot to that ourselves and we might need ToT, buying gripen may not help it)
C) We need good avionics package (we are developing ourselves and its going to take some time )

In other areas we are almost there, buying Gripen does not really help our cause for either experience, or ToT of engine or excellent EW suite.


If we select Gripen NG.. It will simply kill further development of Tejas. Why ?

bcos, after Gripen NG, SAAB will offer their next fighter slightly before MK3 and IAF will happily accept it.. and process goes on & on.. like Marut way.
 

Rahul Singh

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I think SAAB is done designing its last fighter plane. Earlier the market was huge, but not anymore,
There was a big demand for fighter jets till the gulf war, but then due to rising cost of planes (and technology) the number of planes ordered are very less. The logic is simple, if you develop a plane yourself try to estimate your own market. If any export is there then its a bonus. Gone are the days when planes could sell in thousands. MiG-21 sold about 11500 planes, F-16 in its various forms sold about 4500, MiG-29 sold about 1500 or so, with more advance plane, it can handle different roles and hence lesser nos are required. This is one point that IAF does not really understand yet and is insisting on 42 squadrons. In all honesty 270 Su-30 MKI are more than a match for PAF and few other similar size countries thanks to the multi role nature of Su-30 MKI.
To answer simply, how many combat squadrons did France have before year 2000 and how many planes and squadrons does it have now? I am very sure that there are few squadrons lesser now than before.

What India needs most is
A) Experience to design and build its own plane (we have some with Tejas)
B) To develop a good engine (we cannot to that ourselves and we might need ToT, buying gripen may not help it)
C) We need good avionics package (we are developing ourselves and its going to take some time )

In other areas we are almost there, buying Gripen does not really help our cause for either experience, or ToT of engine or excellent EW suite.
India has a superpower on its eastern and northern side and a slave of which on its western border who won't shy of going extra length to please his master. For that reason we need to be prepared for a two front war. We need equipments in numbers. No matter how advance a jet fighter is it can't be at two places at once. The actual requirement of IAF considering this scenario is more than 42 squadrons of fighter jets. Not living up to this reality will be repeating great Nehruvian mistake all over again.
 

sayareakd

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IAF will soon find out what a huge mistake they have made when Chinese J20 which is already inducted, will be fully operational in huge huge numbers by PLAAF and J31 by PAF.

We will at that point have no other option but to run and cry to uncle, if Russian schedule is screw up.

IAF should have asked for stealth airframe with twin engines and what we have learn from LCA. Later on it could have been upgraded. By this time at least they have one or two prototype in air.

Now IAF has problem on FGFA and AMCA. F35 to will not come without conditions. Plus J20 is like big bomb truck. We need to work out plan B that is AMCA if FGFA screw up or delayed.

Btw wont mind if some of these military guys who takes bribes or delay desi projects with malafide intention, with screw up planning of National security, be send to firing squad.
 

Rahul Singh

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IAF will soon find out what a huge mistake they have made when Chinese J20 which is already inducted, will be fully operational in huge huge numbers by PLAAF and J31 by PAF.
That time is not very far in future. In fact i expect PAF to start inducting J-31 anytime from 2020 onwards. PLAAF on other hand has already started inducting J-20s.

We will at that point have no other option but to run and cry to uncle, if Russian schedule is screw up.

IAF should have asked for stealth airframe with twin engines and what we have learn from LCA. Later on it could have been upgraded. By this time at least they have one or two prototype in air.

Now IAF has problem on FGFA and AMCA. F35 to will not come without conditions. Plus J20 is like big bomb truck. We need to work out plan B that is AMCA if FGFA screw up or delayed.

Btw wont mind if some of these military guys who takes bribes or delay desi projects with malafide intention, with screw up planning of National security, be send to firing squad.
I don't want to sound cynical but it seems a deliberate case is being made.

IAF delayed FGFA over engine and radar as if they had multiple options to choose from. Rafale deal and 4th generation M-MRCA requirement has been kept alive despite increasing reasons to droop it. They just don't want money to be transferred to AMCA, something i suspect.

I don't question professionalism of IAF. But arms lobby that has infested it won't care a $hit if we even lose Arunachal in the process.
 

Superdefender

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fan made or official ??? no way its official .
Those pics are created by an artwork designer "Murali Yadav". I really liked the design of AMCA and the glossy chocolate paints. Most visually stunning artwork ever for me....want AMCA to be like that.
 

salute

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