AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[Indx TechStyle]

AMCA is taking to long.

Have you seen any country making a stealth fighter in six years? (We started in 2018).
Even if AMCA is introduced in 2030, it will be a huge achievement given India's track record.
We haven't a well developed Aerospace industry but we're making a 5G fighter. It obviously takes time.

 

[Anupu]

Have you seen any country making a stealth fighter in six years? (We started in 2018).
Even if AMCA is introduced in 2030, it will be a huge achievement given India's track record.
We haven't a well developed Aerospace industry but we're making a 5G fighter. It obviously takes time.

A stealth fighter or any fighter is not developed for the defense industry to make achievements. It's made to fight wars and fulfill a role. We need one urgently. [Look at the indian defense analysis on loksabha tv; comments of Air vice marshall kapil kak on the tejas special]. You don't want AMCA "IOC 1" in 2035 by the time world has started prototyping 6th or 5.5 gen fighters or UCAVs.
AMCA has been floating around for a while around the same time Japanese started working on their own, but still we haven't got any funds approved or designed finalized or even the engine, I am just worried this might get delayed specially if DRDO again moves for Kaveri type misadventure.
No one is doubting India's capability to produce good engineers or tech, the problem is extremely poor management and lack of planning otherwise their are many foreign defense firms with design centers in India.

 

[AnantS]

with Modi's 56 inch leadership skills, you will see AMCA flying by 2020. don't be impatient.

whats with Modi to do with this? Why dont you ask Kejru to do dharna, if you think its govt impeding the work of AMCA?

 

[A chauhan]

with Modi's 56 inch leadership skills, you will see AMCA flying by 2020. don't be impatient.

Yes it's Modi ki ghar ki kheti ! Isn't it ?

 

[Indx TechStyle]

A stealth fighter or any fighter is not developed for the defense industry to make achievements. It's made to fight wars and fulfill a role. We need one urgently. [Look at the indian defense analysis on loksabha tv; comments of Air vice marshall kapil kak on the tejas special]. You don't want AMCA "IOC 1" in 2035 by the time world has started prototyping 6th or 5.5 gen fighters or UCAVs.
AMCA has been floating around for a while around the same time Japanese started working on their own, but still we haven't got any funds approved or designed finalized or even the engine, I am just worried this might get delayed specially if DRDO again moves for Kaveri type misadventure.
No one is doubting India's capability to produce good engineers or tech, the problem is extremely poor management and lack of planning otherwise their are many foreign defense firms with design centers in India.

I can understand what you are saying. But think in another way.
When world has moved towards 5G fighters, we're still messing with foreign 4G fighters.
Moreover, 6G won't be seen in sky before 2035-40.
We must have at least a self dependent air force ove 5G fighters.
As today, we import 80-90% parts of aircraft, I want India to be at a position on 5G fighters like France is today with 4G.
To be an aerospace power like America, we'll do it later.
I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

 

[Anupu]

I can understand what you are saying. But think in another way.
When world has moved towards 5G fighters, we're still messing with foreign 4G fighters.
Moreover, 6G won't be seen in sky before 2035-40.
We must have at least a self dependent air force ove 5G fighters.
As today, we import 80-90% parts of aircraft, I want India to be at a position on 5G fighters like France is today with 4G.
To be an aerospace power like America, we'll do it later.
I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

But are we? Have learned our lessons and corrected the mistakes and issues that came up during the development of Tejas?
1. You can't build a new fighter based on a new untested engine. You design a new aircraft around a tried and tested engine and test new engine on a reliable airframe.
2. You need to make sure all components like avionics, computers, cockpit displays are tested and ready before hand.
3. You should have the Aircraft requirements clear, and fixed completely beforehand.
4. A section of IAF should be involved or ideally incharge of these projects.

The problem I see is except #3 we haven't moved much. Yes the requirements of AMCA seems to be very clear. But I am not sure which engine we will use F414 EPE seemed like a good idea, specially since that would mean we can use normal F414 to power prototypes but the Avionics, the EW suites everything else is still not ready, many components in Tejas are too imported, will we import them for AMCA too?

The Japanese are using X-2 as a test bed for there 5th gen fighter tech. Shouldn't we start doing that as well atleast, using a tejas or someother aircraft for testing our systems?

 

[A chauhan]

AURA will eventually turn into a 6th gen I hope.

 

[Rahul Singh]

I have often wondered at our mentality. Here we are going as slow as we rediculously could on AMCA being as frugal as we could. And why because we think there is a fleet of 36 Rafales coming in to keep us secure. And we don't know yet if negotiations will conclude even in next 7 years.

I say develop a non stealthy LO version of AMCA with equal or greater capability than Rafale by 2025 and then introduce stealth capability in tranches starting 2030 with super 5 th generation features. Let first batch of AMCA be build entirely with same composite material as LCA and same engine as well. Forget RAM and a TVC engine for first tranche. However keeping the 5th generation esentials( which is already there in basic design) like 'shaping' and internal weapon-bays ( a non functional one in first tranche). Avionics can be readily used from LCA line. This can be certainly done in next 9-10 years if we decide now. Today we are well set to embark on such a journey.

But before anything split HAL into two separate compaines. First one focusing on combat aspect of avaiton namely fighter jets and combat choppers and later focusing on cargo aspect of avaiton namely LTAs, MTAs, HTA and helicopters of all weight class. For this to happen money will be needed. So kill Rafale deal. Let considerable portion of 9-10 billion dollars be spent on modernization of these two companies. These two companies which could be called Hindustan Combat Aircrafts Limited and Hindustan Cargo Aircrafts Limited would certainly do more good for national security than these 36 Rafales if we dare to change way of our thinking. We also need a large fleet of C-130J class multipurpose aircrafts for supporting our troops against any Chinese aggression which is becoming ever inevitable with passage of time. So we should also start developing a C-130J class MTA.

All in all we need to think of national security as whole than just AMCA and Rafale. Lets not keep repeating Nehruvian mistake all the time. Today we are atleast this mature.

PS: Forgive me if my emotions have let me cross into OT. I am too frustrated at our wild goose chase wrt Rafale and complete lack of foresight wrt AMCA.

 

[Anupu]

I have often wondered at our mentality. Here we are going as slow as we rediculously could on AMCA being as frugal as we could. And why because we think there is a fleet of 36 Rafales coming in to keep us secure. And we don't know yet if negotiations will conclude even in next 7 years.

I say develop a non stealthy LO version of AMCA with equal or greater capability than Rafale by 2025 and then introduce stealth capability in tranches starting 2030 with super 5 th generation features. Let first batch of AMCA be build entirely with same composite material as LCA and same engine as well. Forget RAM and a TVC engine for first tranche. However keeping the 5th generation esentials( which is already there in basic design) like 'shaping' and internal weapon-bays ( a non functional one in first tranche). Avionics can be readily used from LCA line. This can be certainly done in next 9-10 years if we decide now. Today we are well set to embark on such a journey.

But before anything split HAL into two separate compaines. First one focusing on combat aspect of avaiton namely fighter jets and combat choppers and later focusing on cargo aspect of avaiton namely LTAs, MTAs, HTA and helicopters of all weight class. For this to happen money will be needed. So kill Rafale deal. Let considerable portion of 9-10 billion dollars be spent on modernization of these two companies. These two companies which could be called Hindustan Combat Aircrafts Limited and Hindustan Cargo Aircrafts Limited would certainly do more good for national security than these 36 Rafales if we dare to change way of our thinking. We also need a large fleet of C-130J class multipurpose aircrafts for supporting our troops against any Chinese aggression which is becoming ever inevitable with passage of time. So we should also start developing a C-130J class MTA.

All in all we need to think of national security as whole than just AMCA and Rafale. Lets not keep repeating Nehruvian mistake all the time. Today we are atleast this mature.

PS: Forgive me if my emotions have let me cross into OT. I am too frustrated at our wild goose chase wrt Rafale and complete lack of foresight wrt AMCA.

You don't realize RAM is the easier part in stealth than shaping, also if you are making a twin engine fighter without stealth or AESA or modern avionics it will now be useless, might as well buy the Rafale you hate.

Aircraft are not built or developed or brought for pride or brownie points, they are built to fight wars. A modern multi-role aircraft without AESA and proper EW & ECMs is worse than useless.

LCA line of Avionics is simply not good enough for a AMCA style plane though they may be used as a base to develop an upgraded version, even then we don't have an AESA or ECM deployed on even Tejas. We would also need a IRST and a new displays and sensor fusion based system for pilot aid.

Without that it wouldn't be better than Rafale even without the steath.

 

[Yumdoot]

I would say HAL should be made the holding company for a bunch of JVs with suitable partners or even without partners, with business units divided into the following:
1) Combat Aircrafts Integration and UCAVs and Trainers
2) Helos - combat and non-combat are not going to be very different within the helo group. But combat helos differ substantially from combat aircrafts
3) Transport aircrafts and UAVs
4) Rockets & Satellites (ISRO support work),
5) Missiles integration (new business),
6) Avionics,
7) Power plants, and
8) Materials.

These will essentially imply that each of their current divisions or strategic business unit is vested into a Special Purpose Vehicle and allowed to wade deeper into their respective businesses on profit basis.

Even if you cannot get a technology partner you will still, quite easily get investment partners who will in future be useful for acquiring technology for pure cash transactions.

People do not want to admit it (because it makes them feel impotent), but much of what looks like copying by China is just such a OTC cash transaction. If we have to do the same in India then we have to be willing to give out something to outsiders. But at all costs the control should remain with Indians and Indian entities.

Further and more importantly the focus should be on time management and not on securing access to 'state of art technology'.

 

[Rahul Singh]

You don't realize RAM is the easier part in stealth than shaping, also if you are making a twin engine fighter without stealth or AESA or modern avionics it will now be useless, might as well buy the Rafale you hate.

Aircraft are not built or developed or brought for pride or brownie points, they are built to fight wars. A modern multi-role aircraft without AESA and proper EW & ECMs is worse than useless.

You missed what i had written. Read again "I say develop a non stealthy LO version of AMCA with equal or greater capability than Rafale by 2025".

As for shaping, well we have been working on it since quite some time and work is already beyond 'preliminary design stage'. And timeline that i proposed is 9 years from now.

LCA line of Avionics is simply not good enough for a AMCA style plane though they may be used as a base to develop an upgraded version, even then we don't have an AESA or ECM deployed on even Tejas. We would also need a IRST and a new displays and sensor fusion based system for pilot aid.

Without that it wouldn't be better than Rafale even without the steath.

LCA will be AESA and EW capable no. 21 onward. NLCA MK-2 might also feature data fusion and IRST( since it will be longer). I left it in first place because i thought it to be understood. It seems you needed.

might as well buy the Rafale you hate.

You don't know me so i humbly request not to pretend. 7 years ago Rafale was a different thing now just a wasteful expenditure. Period. Also it's not about me liking or hating. It's about the question can our economy support a fleet of 500 plus Rafales now and in foreseeable future or not? Will French be supplying enough spares to keep Rafales flying during hostilities with China or not?

In nut shell, wars are not won by fancy imported toys alone but inherent strength to sustain any conflict longer than your adversary.

 

[Anupu]

You missed what i had written. Read again "I say develop a non stealthy LO version of AMCA with equal or greater capability than Rafale by 2025".

As for shaping, well we have been working on it since quite some time and work is already beyond 'preliminary design stage'. And timeline that i proposed is 9 years from now.

LCA will be AESA and EW capable no. 21 onward. NLCA MK-2 might also feature data fusion and IRST( since it will be longer). I left it in first place because i thought it to be understood. It seems you needed.

You don't know me so i humbly request not to pretend. 7 years ago Rafale was a different thing now just a wasteful expenditure. Period. Also it's not about me liking or hating. It's about the question can our economy support a fleet of 500 plus Rafales now and in foreseeable future or not? Will French be supplying enough spares to keep Rafales flying during hostilities with China or not?

In nut shell, wars are not won by fancy imported toys alone but inherent strength to sustain any conflict longer than your adversary.

You took it otherwise, may be I should have been more articulate. Anyways....
The key word is "will" or "might". Uttam is still on ready and looks like 2052 will be the mainstay for Tejas, Do we really want Israelis or anyone else to provide a radar for our frontline stealth fighter, do we want them in on it's capability? An Indian IRST is not even on cards as of now.

And I too humbly request you to not take my thoughts for granted, I am not against AMCA and I am not in favor of buying 500 Rafales. Yes, Rafale looks tame in front of the increasing PLAAF capabilities, it just might do the job, but again it would be barely. I just think it gets too much flak on this forum. I won't talk more about it as "Know your Rafale" thread is enough of a cancer already.

What I mean to say is, by 2025, instead of we building an AMCA partially, why not make it fully? Why not start testing out the of techs involved now? Use one of the LSP Tejas for it, or use Mig 29 or any other aircraft we have.

I mean why aren't we trying to test our own TVC, which is on paper on a Su-30, or Mig-29? At least put Uttam on an aircraft, try building the new cockpit suite on a trainer, how will we know the strengths and weakness of our systems without experimenting with it. Ask private companies to solve pieces of the problems, involve them. Build up the pieces on known platforms and then once they are ready the final testing time will be much shorter.

Americans do all these experiments all the time, F-16 XL and the whole X program. Russians did it with Mig-35 , Su-35 SM and Su-37 while development of Su-50. What's stopping us?

And therefore I despair, I sometime despair for AMCA, that we will try to build all techs directly into the first prototype, and if they might not work as we want it to work then, all hell breaks lose. We could have already started testing our systems like this by now.

 

[AnantS]

AMCA progress is slow as Engines that are going to power it, are yet to be shortlisted and approved by IAF

 

[Yumdoot]

@Anupu
Mein aapki bhavna samajh sakta hun. But there are other perspectives too. Esp. w.r.t. priorities.

Ultimately for everything we are not subjected to tech denial or wherever we are not trailing in some proprietary IPR we can afford to go slow because we will have options.

For places we know there is no option but to do an "ekla chalo" we must have started the day before yesterday.

Currentlly they have just picked up the exact opposite method of doing thing. The things they can do they have started, Y-duct, S-duct, Sensor fusions whatever... But the areas they were lagging have been left to God almighty and America... like the bloody engine.

So merely starting on all fronts possible with AMCA will not help. Deep down perhaps even @Rahul Singh also wants exactly the same thing when he says let's just move ahead and make a Non-LO AMCA. He too wants to speed up things. But ain't that the way of the LCA. Not that I agree with the current policy formation where you just negotiate till death with the Americans so some Shahi Tukde get thrown your way.

There exists also an inertia within the Indian strategic circles also, which sees it somehow beneficial to depend on the Americans after the earlier dependence on the the Soviets. In between the existence of 'Indian' somehow never occurred to them. That sense buried in the tons of minutes in multiplicates, of countless meetings.

I would love to cut corners too and get the damn thing flying. But what is the point if you are merely, after that first flight, going to depend on some foreigner for help with something messed up by unscrupulous insiders.

Why I use the word 'messed up' is because, at the end of the day, we are, despite everything only following, something that was already done. And if they could do it then how bloody hard can it be for us. Hamare haath nahi hain ya hamare sir par seengh hain. What is wrong!!!???

Hope you understand. We terribly need to prioritize before we need to make AMCA.

And for those who are reading and are sucker, prioritization does imply not having to depend. So kut le warna ghar mein ghus ke teri......

 

[A chauhan]

As per the wikipedia, work on AMCA is going in full speed with modular approach, and TATA, Reliance, Godrej, L&T etc are working on sub assemblies. Total 140 firms are busy in it. Nice to know that.

 

[tejas warrior]

As per the wikipedia, work on AMCA is going in full speed with modular approach, and TATA, Reliance, Godrej, L&T etc are working on sub assemblies. Total 140 firms are busy in it. Nice to know that.

Source please.

Officially, project is waiting for government releasing Funds.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Source please.

Officially, project is waiting for government releasing Funds.

How long it gonna take to produce first prototype if budget is released today?
IMO, must be 3-4 years.

 

[tejas warrior]

How long it gonna take to produce first prototype if budget is released today?
IMO, must be 3-4 years.

I'll say minimum 8 years is honest expectation.

 

[A chauhan]

Source please.

Officially, project is waiting for government releasing Funds.

Source is wikipedia, I have already mentioned. Govt halted if for Tejas completion in 2013, but after that work is going on full swing as per the wiki. If you have some other update please quote here.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Realistically speaking if detailed design is frozen today, it will take 5 years from now to roll out first prototype. Couple more years to first flight. Atleast 5 years more for IOC. Now if you bring variables like uncertainty on engine. the timeline could stretch even further. That when we are only developing LO AMCA. Since original plan calls for VLO version the actual timeline will be even longer.

For this reason Government needs to priorities AMCA now. Support it with adequate funding. Make necessary changes in system. But before all do eradicate the people who think India can be a superpower and still be the largest importer of arms.