AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

MonaLazy

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Gentlemen, I indulged in some reading and at the risk of sounding like an expert I don't think we can mimic a Hypersonic Glide Vehicle (HGV) (let alone Hypersonic Cruise Vehicle (HCV)) with any other class of missiles. The best we can do is to generate an electronic target where coordinates are pre-fed to match expect flight path- simulating both altitude and speed.


SAVE_20211220_170720.jpg


For starters it has a unique trajectory, a ballistic missile leaves the atmosphere and enters the vaccum of space and re-enters the atmosphere after climbing to 1000-2000kms but essentially falling like a rock against gravity (no additional lift is generated) with some maneuvering in the terminal phase to evade missile defences.

Shaurya:
Its two-stage rocket accelerates the missile to six times the speed of sound before it reaches an altitude of 40 km, after which it cruises towards the target, a defence scientist associated with the project said.
HGVs on the other hand operate at the edge of the atmosphere 240kms or so. Like a stone thrown at a shallow angle on a lake- they skip-glide-skip-glide between vaccum and uppermost reaches of atmosphere. Different altitudes, different speeds than any other type of missiles. They also create a radar absorbing plasma cloud in front by sheer speed making them harder to detect.

Conventional ballistic missiles operate on the same principle as employed for firing a gun or throwing a stone. You impart a high velocity to a bullet, shell or a missile. Depending on its initial velocity, the projectile can travel anywhere from a few yards to a few thousand miles following equations of ballistic trajectory that students routinely solve in high school.

One such futuristic system was envisioned by a genius called Eugen Sanger. An Austrian-born aeronautical engineer, Sanger was a member of the Nazi party as well as the notorious SS Gestapo!

Sanger was obsessed with bombing the American mainland from across the Atlantic. A grandiose idea – in an era when flying a missile across the English Channel was regarded a great achievement. Sanger realized that ballistic missiles had inherent limitations of range. Making them bigger and bigger, increased both cost and complexity prohibitively.

Sanger proposed a novel idea — as out-of-the-box as it could be. In principle, his idea was somewhat like the game of Ducks and Drakes. Kids throw a flat piece of stone at a shallow angle, on a huge expanse of water. Instead of sinking in the water, the stone skips on it several times. Travelling much farther than it would, if thrown in the air.

In Sanger’s mind, the flat piece of stone in Ducks and Drakes, was replaced by his pet ‘Amerika Bomber’ project. The expanse of water became Earth’s dense atmosphere. And the air in Ducks and Drakes was replaced by the rarefied air or near vacuum of outer space. Since regular air-breathing engines cannot operate in vacuum, Sanger’s bomber would require rocket engines or specialized jet engines. How would it reach outer space? Well, a rocket would lift vertically from the ground and take it to about 150 km up. From there, it would launch the bomber.

The bomber, named Silbervogel (Silverbird) would have a fuselage, so shaped that when it would strike the denser layers of the atmosphere at a shallow angle, like the piece of stone in Ducks and Drakes, it would also start skipping over it. Since there is practically no friction or air drag up there, the skipping or hopping bomber would cover 19-24,000 km across the globe with very little fuel spent and developing speeds of Mach 17 (that is, 17 times the speed of sound)!

Today, we call them as boost-glide, skip-glide or a variant of FOBS (Fractional Orbital Bombardment System).

What is a fractional orbital bombardment system?
FOBS is the highest-velocity missile deployment system that currently exists.

Broadly speaking, the slowest missiles are cruise missiles, which are essentially drone planes. Though they may initially ride a rocket booster launched from the ground or a submarine, they go on to cruise through the atmosphere like a jet-powered plane.

Ballistic missiles, meanwhile, are essentially suborbital rockets, operating on the principle that what goes up must come down. When launched, they can climb to altitudes up to 1,200 miles (2,000 kilometers) — much higher than satellites or space stations in low Earth orbit. They can also reach speeds of up to several miles per second before reentering the atmosphere. However, their ballistic nature also makes their trajectories predictable, and therefore vulnerable to missile defense systems.

In contrast, in a fractional orbital bombardment system, the rocket achieves low Earth orbit, which requires more energy than a ballistic missile has. But before completing one full orbit, a FOBS rocket deorbits by turning around and performing a retrograde engine burn. This allows it to slow down so that its trajectory intersects with its target on the ground.

The FOBS concept was originally developed by the Soviet Union, in part to bypass international agreements that prevent weapons of mass destruction from being stationed in Earth orbit. A fractional orbital bombardment system, Moscow asserted, was not prohibited by those agreements.

Being able to strike from low Earth orbit carries several advantages. By staying relatively low, never climbing above 150 miles (240 km) or so, they remain below the line-of-sight of radar designed to pick up arcing ballistic missiles. Orbital trajectories also allow militaries to strike from unexpected directions. For example, the Soviet Union's FOBS gave missiles the ability to evade potential U.S. anti-ballistic missile systems in Alaska. How? By launching to an orbit that flies over the South Pole, blindsiding the U.S from below.

In essence, HGVs are spacecraft. They are incredibly similar to rocket-launched spaceplanes like the Air Force’s X-37B, which launches to orbit, reenters the atmosphere, and glides to make a precise landing on a runway. China also tested a similar orbital spaceplane for the first time in September 2020. “[This] is the same concept, except you put a nuclear weapon on the glider and don’t bother with a landing gear,” tweeted arms control expert Jeffrey Lewis.

An HGV’s ability to maneuver as it descends into thicker and thicker air allows it to be both more accurate and unpredictable. When the vehicle’s wings begin generating lift as it reaches the upper wisps of the atmosphere, it gains the ability to roll and maneuver. This means it can alter its trajectory to take aim at a different target than its orbit suggested, or to evade an anti-ballistic missile.

And it's so fast that the air pressure in front of the weapon forms a plasma cloud as it moves, absorbing radio waves and making it practically invisible to active radar systems.




 

Bhartiya Sainik

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:facepalm: U r ambushing me from both sides as if i am DoD spokesperson. I feel like members like u r police interogatting me. U guys seldom make suggestions or share sources.
and what abt future upgradebility ??
what abt less hardpoint we get in mk1a ??
what abt less range we get in mk1a ??
Ask these questions to DRDO/HAL/NAL/ADA/IAF for being short sighted & wasting our money for decades.

yeh para padhna bhul gaye the kya ??
those jets are gonna be in service till 2070s, and you are saying that to induct more such jets which does not have basic thing (considering from future standpoint) like internal ew suit.
Again, ask these questions to DRDO/HAL/NAL/ADA/IAF for being short sighted & wasting our money for decades.
And i did read every line of ur reply.
There are talks about implementing DC-MAWS on Su-30MKI on Pylons. Perhaps it can be implemented for LCA too.
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Creating a new jet requires everything new - design, testing, some new components, spare parts, production line. ever wondered how much cost that is. Hence i mentioned to save this cost & invest in TEDBF/ORCA/AMCA.
 

SavageKing456

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For that we have Su-30MKI & Rafale to attck the bases across border.
Who r we to force AF/DRDO/HAL/NAL/ADA?
This is not even a GoI website, just for common citizen fans.
This & other forums are just chat site where we can give our opinions........ to eachother, as if we are discussing with our friends, neighbors, etc
:balleballe:
So MK2 will come but i sincerely hope & pray that it remains as LSP & our TEDBF/ORCA/AMCA will manifest a.s.a.p. :india::cruisin2:
I also hope & pray that our future generation of leaders & engineers will create good future genertion of DoD assets & won't repeat 70-90 years of mistakes, corruption, delays.:doh::facepalm:
I got your point
 

Bhartiya Sainik

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There are talks about implementing DC-MAWS on Su-30MKI on Pylons. Perhaps it can be implemented for LCA too.
View attachment 126646
View attachment 126647
Creating a new jet requires everything new - design, testing, some new components, spare parts, production line. ever wondered how much cost that is. Hence i mentioned to save this cost & invest in TEDBF/ORCA/AMCA.
Here is another example implemented in 1-engine F-16. So DRDO/HAL/ADA/NAL should be able to implement in MK1A too.
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They also have pylon mounted CMDS:

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And if they can't shorten size of components, don't foolishly blame another common citizen like yourself. :crazy: :doh::facepalm:

If CFTs can be fitted on a jet then that indicates that same space or some of it can be used for additional equipment too. So think yourself 1st before ambushing others.
 
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MonaLazy

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@BON PLAN
@Picard
@Fonck83

Is there any chatter about a military engine for India in the French media?

“A big French company will manufacture an engine in India, thus far not made in the country, in collaboration with an Indian firm,”- Rajnath Singh Ji, Defence Minister, India.

Surprisingly vague statement from the DM- no idea of this is the aneto-1 turboshaft for India's future medium and heavy helis or some variant of Safran's variable cycle 1,825°C TET turbojet engine for FCAS?




 
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Rajaraja Chola

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Its disappointing that Turkey and India have to be reliant on foreign engines and it will be interesting to see which will be put into service 1st between the TAI-TFX and AMCA.

Also India wants to purchase S-500 and just like what the U.S. did to Germany laying off the gas for 6 months from nordstream 2 they might threaten France next on selling engines to India.
First let them produce Hurjet which is a 4th gen trainer fighter. Their "trainer" version is expected to be inducted by 2026. They still haven't thought about a fighter version with aesa radar, missiles, 3 fuel tanks etc. As of now the plan is to use gun and drop bombs. I guess it will be 2030 when it's IOC version "might" be inducted.

If Erdogan is not voted out of power in 2023, Turkey has some real dark days indeed.
 

Rajaraja Chola

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Is there any chatter about a military engine for India in the French media?

“A big French company will manufacture an engine in India, thus far not made in the country, in collaboration with an Indian firm,”- Rajnath Singh Ji, Defence Minister, India.

Surprisingly vague statement from the DM- no idea of this is the aneto-1 turboshaft for India's future medium and heavy helis or some variant of Safran's variable cycle 1,825°C TET turbojet engine for FCAS?




Rajnath Singh is a politician. He has no idea on what an engine is and complexities of making one in India nor the ability to learn what it is.

Being a good politician as he is in making announcement as if the French DM visit to India is without nothing. Hell the same media wrote for days when RR actually announced its proposing making an 110KN engine with DRDO/GTRE.

And then RS simply announces they are making engine with India without an MoU, production partners, R&D partners, budgetary allocation estimate. Cos who cares? No common citizen is going to ask RS where the French engine. Blowing smoke.
 

Dark Sorrow

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Thats purely IAF's fault for saying that they want an aircraft in the size of the MiG 21 because they didnt want to upgrade their HAS. Else the original spec sheet should have asked for an F16 class fighter to mitigate these problems.
IAF lead down the specification in early 1980s.
Today its end of 2021. Had the aircraft been inducted in early 2000s IAF wouldn't have asked for upgrades.
People should sop blaming IAF for every problem with Tejas.
 

Bhartiya Sainik

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It would be good if AMCA can deploy this kind of DAS sensors.
The F-35's DAS was able to detect plume of rocket/missile 1300 Kms away (in clear weather). The AESA radar & other antennas also supplement this process hence we call it sensor fused avionics.

1640138546938.png

When our phone cameras have reached 200MP 8K resolution with photo/video processing functions, then military optical sensors are much ahead.
The F-35's DAS sensor performs multiple functions with 360 degree coverage in X-Y-Z axis:
> IRST
> MLD/MAWS
> Night/thermal sight
> Low altitude navigation
> Aiding in GMTI (Ground Moving Target Indication)
> Aiding in target ID & classification
It has left the traditional IRSTs far behind which required to mechanicaly move, took time to sweep sector & performed limited functions.
It is like the PESA version of IRST.
Distributed Aperture means multiple sensors across the jet's body giving all round coverage.
This started with the F-22's AN/AAR-56 sensors which are also distributed in 6-axis. But the F-22 didn't implement EOTS/IRST due to stealth reasons & X-35 JSF/CALF program was also started in early 1990s. In F-35 also the concept of distributed aperturres followed with the AN/AAQ-37 sensors positioned in the same 6-axis like in F-22.

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The AN/AAQ-40 EOTS was added under chin rather than a separate external pod or as a portruding pod like in F-16 AFTI.
The EOTS as the name suggests is not just a Targetiing System for LGBs but can also perform functions mentioned in above points.

1640162307984.png
 

Bhartiya Sainik

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Can someone confirm it?

What exactly do u want to confirm?
Their group is not dedicated to any domain. They try to cover every current affair topic at a basic awareness level. They didn't even use the right clips & picture of jets at many places in the video.
You can subscribe to some YT channels. I don't know if i can name them all as some could be rival sites, my account might be banned, LOL.
But remember, most of channels are made by youth fans who have time to do it. They may or may not be technically qualified. Even some popular Defence journalists are not technical graduates. Very few of them are in contact with active or retired staff though interviews, talk shows, press conferences, exhibitions, events, facility visits, etc. You just have to monitor official websites & social media channels of all OEMs, R&D firms, think-tanks, trusted news channels.
A person qualified in defence technologies, unless retired, never spends time in making such channels. They directly work with the private/govt. organizations sworn to secrecy with legal consequences. Later they may work with private think-tanks & institutes.
 

Bhartiya Sainik

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those are pics of prototypes.
Yes, and afterwards they use an adhesive putty i think to blend with the surface.
However, closeup pics of finished F-22 & F-35 also have some special type of bolts/rivets which don't show the filled putty blended.

1640239257321.png
1640239444952.png
1640247026231.png


IDK if USA & Russia may have tested RCS of airframe with different screw & bolt caps, how much difference it may have created in RCS.

1640240587839.png
 

Mutyala rayadu

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Yes, and afterwards they use an adhesive putty i think to blend with the surface.
However, closeup pics of finished F-22 & F-35 also have some special type of bolts/rivets which don't show the filled putty blended.

View attachment 127221View attachment 127222View attachment 127274

IDK if USA & Russia may have tested RCS of airframe with different screw & bolt caps, how much difference it may have created in RCS.

View attachment 127231
At home, I just use slotted one for every type of screw. Makes me think what even is the use of six-lobe. One crest goes flat and it would be a pain to unscrew.
 

Bhartiya Sainik

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It would be good if AMCA can deploy this kind of DAS sensors.
The F-35's DAS was able to detect plume of rocket/missile 1300 Kms away (in clear weather). The AESA radar & other antennas also supplement this process hence we call it sensor fused avionics.

View attachment 126909
When our phone cameras have reached 200MP 8K resolution with photo/video processing functions, then military optical sensors are much ahead.
The F-35's DAS sensor performs multiple functions with 360 degree coverage in X-Y-Z axis:
> IRST
> MLD/MAWS
> Night/thermal sight
> Low altitude navigation
> Aiding in GMTI (Ground Moving Target Indication)
> Aiding in target ID & classification
It has left the traditional IRSTs far behind which required to mechanicaly move, took time to sweep sector & performed limited functions.
It is like the PESA version of IRST.
Distributed Aperture means multiple sensors across the jet's body giving all round coverage.
This started with the F-22's AN/AAR-56 sensors which are also distributed in 6-axis. But the F-22 didn't implement EOTS/IRST due to stealth reasons & X-35 JSF/CALF program was also started in early 1990s. In F-35 also the concept of distributed aperturres followed with the AN/AAQ-37 sensors positioned in the same 6-axis like in F-22.

View attachment 126910

View attachment 126913

View attachment 126914

View attachment 126915

The AN/AAQ-40 EOTS was added under chin rather than a separate external pod or as a portruding pod like in F-16 AFTI.
The EOTS as the name suggests is not just a Targetiing System for LGBs but can also perform functions mentioned in above points.

View attachment 126981
1640448599928.png


For designing a new gen jet, the AMCA team may have to do experiments with measuring heat signature at different altitudes bcoz air density affects engine performance, atmospheric scattering, etc. And also in different spectrum of LWIR, MWIR, SWIR, UV.
Whichever engine will be chosen, it has to be flown with intended nozzle design for measurements.

USAF had/has Portable Seeker/Sensor/Signature Evaluation Facility (PSSSEF) to dosuch studies.
Below are some examples of how USAF measured exhausts of various jets at different altitudes, nozzle settings, angles & orientations, even flare release.

Here we have an F-15 with ATIMS III & TIGER pods to measure IR signatures.
Airborne Turret Infrared Measurement System III (ATIMS III)
Threat Infrared Generic Emulation Radiometer (TIGER)


1640445508582.png

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Below we have F-18 with the TIGER pod

1640445922499.png

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Below we have F-15 with SARIS pod.
Spectral/Spatial Airborne Radiometric Infrared System (SARIS)


1640446158750.png
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Below we have UH-60 with ARMS pod
Airborne Radiometric Measurement System (ARMS)


1640446318768.png


There are some other pods like
Beam Approach Seeker Evaluation System (BASES)
Calibrated IR/visible/UV Ground and Airborne Radiometric Spectrometer (CIGARS)
Supersonic Airborne Tri-Gimbal Infrared System (SATIRS)
Stabilized Electro-optical Airborne Instrumentation Platform (SEAIP)
 

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