AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[SARTHAK]

PDF doesn't mention ground-based & this forum not for ground vehicles.

EOTS is itself ground based

 

[Lonewolf]

PDF doesn't mention ground-based & this forum not for ground vehicles.

I remember that pdf

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

EOTS is itself ground based

What r u saying man? EOTS is just a generic acronym so it can be used for any platform with optical aperture used for targeting. But we are talking about air-borne systems, specifically F-35's EOTS

 

[SARTHAK]

What r u saying man? EOTS is just a generic acronym so it can be used for any platform with optical aperture used for targeting. But we are talking about air-borne systems, specifically F-35's EOTS

eodas and eots are different systems ,eodas for air 2 air operations ,eots for a2g

 

[SavageKing456]

DRDO EOTS. Long range IRST is not mentioned here(maybe deliberate)

This is electro optical tracking system not targeting these two are different

 

[Javelin_Sam]

This is electro optical tracking system not targeting these two are different

Oops. Sorry. I got confused

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

eodas and eots are different systems ,eodas for air 2 air operations ,eots for a2g

Partially right but small correction: We have already moved towards multi-functional sensors & sensor fused avionics. Or rather shall i say USA has moved & others are following. This reduced the quantity of sensors required, dedicated sensors, space required & implementation & servicing costs.
Earlier we had manual radar modes like A2A, A2G, A2Sea, pilot had to change mode manually to see these 3 type of targets. But radar tech advancements & sensor fused avionics changed all that.
Similarly for optical sensors, S/w advancements & DIP (Digital Image Processing) opened new capabilities.
A security camera can track movement of a bird as well as a rat. As long as the S/w algorithm is good it doesn't matter if the picture is of ground, air or combined.
However, in certain scenarios, multi-spectral sensor is used, like some MAWS use IR+UV or different apertures for bands of IR but again good DIP is important.

Both sensors AN/AAQ-37 DAS & AN/AAQ-40 EOTS have some common functionality with the help of image processing algorithms like :-
> Detection of objects of various temperature ranges, not just hot objects. Objects can be anything in operational range, aerial or on ground, inclusing missiles (MLD/MAWS).
> GMTI (Ground Moving Target Identification). This was a radar mode earlier but DIP algos are also used in motion detection, etc.
> Object & threat level classification.
> Low altitude navigation

The following 2 depictions in video are of object detection, classification & then decide whether it is a combatant/target vehicle, civilian/transport vehicle, etc. Although it is shown here in video by the AN/APG-81 SAR radar mapping but optical sensor within its range can also do it.

Check this video

At 7:45 he mentions "2 IR sensors right now" meaning both the EOTS & bottom DAS are monitoring the ground target.

At 8:00 again he mentions "on both IR displays"

Then he moves on to aerial target.

Hence the AN/AAQ-40 EOTS can also function as FLIR/DLIR/IRST, that's the whole idea, that's why it is on forward side of chin so that it can look forward also; It was supposed to replace previous pods like Low Altitude Navigation and Targeting Infrared for Night (LANTIRN) which consists of 2 pods: AN/AAQ-13 navigation pod with the AN/AAQ-14 targeting pod; then also the AN/ASQ-228 Advanced Targeting Forward-Looking Infrared (AFTLIR), AN/AAQ-28(V) Litening targeting pod, etc.

And 2 of the 6 DAS sensors AN/AAQ-37 also points downwards at angle, not just for A2A or SAM detection but also tracking ground objects/targets & classify them, just like a security camera.

But the 2 sensors have different range + EOTS has LRF (Laser Range Finder), LSD (Laser Spot Detector) & LD (Laser Designation) specific to ground engagement. This obviously DAS cannot do bcoz the material used in the focal plane array of various sensors are different for different purposes.

I hope no confusions now.

The F-22 also uses its 6 distributed AN/AAR-56 optical apertures with DIP algos, but it lacks EOTS for LGBs. It can only drop GPS guided JDAM & SDB.

 

[Kalkioftoday]

Partially right but small correction: We have already moved towards multi-functional sensors & sensor fused avionics. Or rather shall i say USA has moved & others are following. This reduced the quantity of sensors required, dedicated sensors, space required & implementation & servicing costs.
Earlier we had manual radar modes like A2A, A2G, A2Sea, pilot had to change mode manually to see these 3 type of targets. But radar tech advancements & sensor fused avionics changed all that.
Similarly for optical sensors, S/w advancements & DIP (Digital Image Processing) opened new capabilities.
A security camera can track movement of a bird as well as a rat. As long as the S/w algorithm is good it doesn't matter if the picture is of ground, air or combined.
However, in certain scenarios, multi-spectral sensor is used, like some MAWS use IR+UV or different apertures for bands of IR but again good DIP is important.

Both sensors AN/AAQ-37 DAS & AN/AAQ-40 EOTS have some common functionality with the help of image processing algorithms like :-
> Detection of objects of various temperature ranges, not just hot objects. Objects can be anything in operational range, aerial or on ground, inclusing missiles (MLD/MAWS).
> GMTI (Ground Moving Target Identification). This was a radar mode earlier but DIP algos are also used in motion detection, etc.
> Object & threat level classification.
> Low altitude navigation

The following 2 depictions in video are of object detection, classification & then decide whether it is a combatant/target vehicle, civilian/transport vehicle, etc. Although it is shown here in video by the AN/APG-81 SAR radar mapping but optical sensor within its range can also do it.

View attachment 127976View attachment 127977
View attachment 127980View attachment 127982
View attachment 127983

Check this video

At 7:45 he mentions "2 IR sensors right now" meaning both the EOTS & bottom DAS are monitoring the ground target.
View attachment 127992

At 8:00 again he mentions "on both IR displays"
View attachment 127993

Then he moves on to aerial target.
View attachment 127994View attachment 127995
Hence the AN/AAQ-40 EOTS can also function as FLIR/DLIR/IRST, that's the whole idea, that's why it is on forward side of chin so that it can look forward also; It was supposed to replace previous pods like Low Altitude Navigation and Targeting Infrared for Night (LANTIRN) which consists of 2 pods: AN/AAQ-13 navigation pod with the AN/AAQ-14 targeting pod; then also the AN/ASQ-228 Advanced Targeting Forward-Looking Infrared (AFTLIR), AN/AAQ-28(V) Litening targeting pod, etc.

And 2 of the 6 DAS sensors AN/AAQ-37 also points downwards at angle, not just for A2A or SAM detection but also tracking ground objects/targets & classify them, just like a security camera.

But the 2 sensors have different range + EOTS has LRF (Laser Range Finder), LSD (Laser Spot Detector) & LD (Laser Designation) specific to ground engagement. This obviously DAS cannot do bcoz the material used in the focal plane array of various sensors are different for different purposes.

I hope no confusions now.

The F-22 also uses its 6 distributed AN/AAR-56 optical apertures with DIP algos, but it lacks EOTS for LGBs. It can only drop GPS guided JDAM & SDB.

What is possibility of AMCA employing a real DAS like an F35? Do we have the industrial capability now to mass produce these systems on our own? Cuz so far we only manufactured few missile seeker and electro optical sensors and DCMAWS with imported (isreali) FPAs. And also the X- Ray vision, does it come inbuilt in a DAS like system or do they need a completely different sensors for that?

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

NOTE: I'm not defennce journalist or DoD engineer.

What is possibility of AMCA employing a real DAS like an F35?

21st century is digital information era so information gathering by sensors will play primary role in every wing of force. DAS is 1 of the basic cardinal characteristics of a 5th gen jet with multiple benefits.
If our DoD has taken initiative to build AMCA in 10-15 years then such things are obviously a must. There cannot be any excuses, R&D must happen either by self or in colaboration for some sub-systems. Otherwise the delayed obsolete example of LCA will repeat with AMCA also.

Do we have the industrial capability now to mass produce these systems on our own?

In a populous labor intensive but developing economy it is definitely possible to become self-reliant. But in era of globalization, international colaborations have their own financial, geopolitical benefits.
Industrial capability depends on skilled labor (scientists, engineers, technicians, mechanics, etc), R&D, funds allocated, confidence, etc & normally the economics of production depends on future anticipation, product feasibility studies, risk management, long-term mass orders from forces, then only it is feasible to make production lines.
However, as example only 186 F-22s were made so did it stop 6th gen R&D? NO, bcoz evolution is natural & inevitable. This is just the dawn of technology & we have long way to go. And also bcoz a futuristic jet is supposed to kill multiple older gen jets & also defend itself well. That's why we call it Air Dominance/Superiority Fighter jet. other jets of 4++gen are auxilliary platforms.
When 6th gen prototype will be revealed in 2030s or 40s by then the 5th gen tech will become common & economical due to daily R&D across the globe in all aspects of engineering, simple. That's how transitioned happened from 1st gen > 2nd > 3rd > 4th > 5th gen. Things take time, nothing to panic, but we shouldn not relax either.

Cuz so far we only manufactured few missile seeker and electro optical sensors and DCMAWS with imported (isreali) FPAs.

At least we have a start of something. The DC-MAWS is an initial attempt & that too for legacy jets. 5th gen jet will require design of apertures blended with the body.
Our engineers knocked doors of Russia to deploy the DC-MAWS on Su-30MKI but Russians said the proposed positions would hamper the performance of the jet.

But Su-30MKM as example, deployed their imported MAWS in upper-lower-hemispheres profile. So our engineers also need to start experiments confidently, do measurements & trials of diferent permutations & then choose best option.

The Su-35-S & Su-57 uses same 6-axis locations as the F-22 & F-35, so as a work-around these locations could be used for now on Su-30MKI also, later if will find better locations then we can implement.

And also the X- Ray vision, does it come inbuilt in a DAS like system or do they need a completely different sensors for that?

"X-ray" or "see-through" vision just requires optical apertures distributed across the body of vehicle. The optical sensor can be visible spectrum camera or IR camera or both for day/night ops.
"iron Vision" system for ground vehicles is an example.

And a native company named Tonbo Systems has also developed it for our IFVs, etc, don'tknow if finalized for production.

This can be easily put on ground vehicles & helicopters. Elbit System's X-sight is another example.

Implementation on jet fighter is a bigger challenge due to fast speed & complex avionics but with continious R&D with time it is possible & natural evolution.

 

[India Super Power]

@Bhartiya Sainik
What are your views on pod based dcmaws developed by drdo can it be used in su 30mki, mig 29, tejas, jaguars
Bcoz last we have heard is in expo
I don't is it being tested or thrown in trash or testing completed but integration remaining

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

@Bhartiya Sainik
What are your views on pod based dcmaws developed by drdo can it be used in su 30mki, mig 29, tejas, jaguars
Bcoz last we have heard is in expo
I don't is it being tested or thrown in trash or testing completed but integration remaining

If u r talking abt this then it is horrible & ridiculous, like going backwards with technology.

As we can see in the following pic, the entire jet acts as a blind-spot for upper hemisphere. What about a high flying jet launching missile from top? And 1 precious weapon station lost.

Like i said for Su-30MKI & MiG-29, the 6-axis positions can be used like in Su-35-S & MiG-35 without worry.

MiG-35 instead of chin uses engine nacelle for lower MAWS

Or, pylon mounted MAWS can be used. At least fly it, test it, run CFD models & evaluate it, bcoz F-16 based pylon MAWS+CMDS have been tested, o LCA & Jaguar can also explore this option.

See what F-15 EX has done. They put the MAWS beside cockpit canopy & extended rudder root backwards.

It can also be put on top of rudder like in Rafale, where LWR & jammer are also placed.

There are so many places to put the MAWS & other stuff on a 4.5 gen jet's airframe. As long as U consult the OEMs they will always discourage u, confuse u, reject ur modification proposals, until they implement something & compell u to imlement it too, even if it is copy of something.

So our DoD guys should review the contract, to what extent they can modify the airframe, run CFD models & wind tunnel tests & then choose among of these locations. Otherwise it is like a student who never graduates, who wan't's to open his/her own ambitious startup but never develops confidence for fear of even small flaws & hickups.

 

[India Super Power]

If u r talking abt this then it is horrible & ridiculous, like going backwards with technology.

View attachment 128056View attachment 128058

As we can see in the following pic, the entire jet acts as a blind-spot for upper hemisphere. What about a high flying jet launching missile from top? And 1 precious weapon station lost.

View attachment 128057

Like i said for Su-30MKI & MiG-29, the 6-axis positions can be used like in Su-35-S & MiG-35 without worry.

View attachment 128059

MiG-35 instead of chin uses engine nacelle for lower MAWS

View attachment 128063View attachment 128066

Or, pylon mounted MAWS can be used. At least fly it, test it, run CFD models & evaluate it, bcoz F-16 based pylon MAWS+CMDS have been tested, o LCA & Jaguar can also explore this option.

View attachment 128060
View attachment 128061

See what F-15 EX has done. They put the MAWS beside cockpit canopy & extended rudder root backwards.

View attachment 128069

It can also be put on top of rudder like in Rafale, where LWR & jammer are also placed.

View attachment 128070

There are so many places to put the MAWS & other stuff on a 4.5 gen jet's airframe. As long as U consult the OEMs they will always discourage u, confuse u, reject ur modification proposals, until they implement something & compell u to imlement it too, even if it is copy of something.

So our DoD guys should review the contract, to what extent they can modify the airframe, run CFD models & wind tunnel tests & then choose among of these locations. Otherwise it is like a student who never graduates, who wan't's to open his/her own ambitious startup but never develops confidence for fear of even small flaws & hickups.

So u mean pylon based is useless but I have seen many planes using the particular system
Do u or anyone else have idea if iaf using pylon based dcmaws or just testing

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

So u mean pylon based is useless but I have seen many planes using the particular system

Where did i say pylon system is useless? I said pod system is useless. I mentioned above to test pylon system & validate its feasibility.

Do u or anyone else have idea if iaf using pylon based dcmaws or just testing

DRDO itself has released the poster for pylon system & a full-scale object, model or product. So i guess they might be testing. But they must do things fast.

 

[India Super Power]

Where did i say pylon system is useless? I said pod system is useless. I mentioned above to test pylon system & validate its feasibility.


DRDO itself has released the poster for pylon system & a full-scale object, model or product. So i guess they might be testing. But they must do things fast.

Sorry my mistake I was talking about pod system basically
Does anyone else have idea about dcmaws status

 

[SARTHAK]

a derivative of dcmaws is made for tejas mk2 source ddr aero india 2021

 

[India Super Power]

a derivative of dcmaws is made for tejas mk2 source ddr aero india 2021

I am asking about pod based
As its ready it can used in mk1 foc or increase or jaguars or mig29s
It's not perfect one but still can give results

 

[SARTHAK]

I am asking about pod based
As its ready it can used in mk1 foc or increase or jaguars or mig29s
It's not perfect one but still can give results

mig 29s have rf maws

 

[India Super Power]

mig 29s have rf maws

Ok I didn't know it
Others can use the pod

 

[India Super Power]

Basically what's the status of dcmaws pod
@IndianHawk @SavageKing456 @porky_kicker @Karthi @BrigadierRPS others who have info

 

[SARTHAK]

Basically what's the status of dcmaws pod
@IndianHawk @SavageKing456 @porky_kicker @Karthi @BrigadierRPS others who have info

it was seen on su 30mki while ladakh stand off