AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[Kay]

AMCA specs are too advanced for our industrial capabilities. We are capable of developing a lighter 5th generation aircraft with our technical capabilities today leaving out many of the technologies that IAF wants I corporated. Since stealth airframes are less efficient, they need more power. We can build a twin engine plane with slightly higher tonnage than Tejas.
IAF wants a panoramaic display cockpit, fibre optics for communication, helmet mounted display, OBOGs - all of which can be gradually introduced in an upgrade. Even we can get rid of internal weapons bay and introduce that in a larger later variant.
If we have a small stealth plane in air with air to air missile, J-20 and J-31 won't look intimidating any more. Unfortunately, IAF is not good at prioritizing, managing and developing capability - it knows how to shop and fight.

 

[arya]

From first flight in 2019 to now in 2032. I think these people have screw loose in their heads.

Nothing they are just 15 years late from rest world


Someone need to tell idots in 2032 technology will be far advance .

 

[ezsasa]

Nothing they are just 15 years late from rest world


Someone need to tell idots in 2032 technology will be far advance .

oh don't worry, IAF will ask for 6th gen in 2025.
we must have confidence in IAF to change the specs half way thru the project.

 

[patriots]

oh don't worry, IAF will ask for 6th gen in 2025.
we must have confidence in IAF to change the specs half way thru the project.

and...amca will be 5++ plane....definitely.......................................

 

[Bleh]

Could they have meant 2022?
Or, 2032 as Induction date?

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

India building new fighter jet


The Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), India’s next indigenous fighter, is expected to make its first flight by 2032. Development work on the jet is under way.

“The AMCA will feature geometric stealth and will initially fly with two GE-414 engines. Once we develop our own engine, it can be replaced with that. We expect the first flight in 2032,” a defence source said.

“There are two major ways of making a military platform stealthier. One is geometric stealth and other is material stealth. In geometric stealth, the shape of the aircraft is designed at such angles so as to deflect away maximum radar waves thereby minimising its radar cross section. In material stealth, radar-absorbing materials are used in making the aircraft which will absorb the radio waves thus reducing the radar footprint. The AMCA will initially be based on geometric stealth, we can look at material stealth at a later stage,” the source said.

The Indian Air Force has given land to the Defence Research and Development Organisation to set up facilities for the project.

The plan is to build on the capabilities and expertise developed during the development of the light combat aircraft (LCA) and produce a medium fifth generation fighter aircraft.

“Apart from the technologies developed from the LCA project, the new fighter programme is important as technologies coming in through that will flow into the AMCA project,” another official source said.

The aircraft will be powered by the same GE-414 engine on the LCA Mk-2 variant which is in the design phase.

A GE-414 produces 98kN thrust compared to 84kN thrust of the GE-404 engine which is on the LCA Mk1.

At Aero India 2016, DRDO officials had stated that the basic design configuration has been frozen after wind tunnel testing and there are three critical technologies that need to be developed -- stealth, thrust vectoring and super cruise.

This is India’s only fifth generation aircraft programme following the decision not to go ahead with the fifth generation project with Russia.

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/india-building-new-fighter-jet/article24731939.ece

It is most probably an error in typing. The date can't be 2032 for first flight. The development has been going in full swing since 2014 and suddenly, it won't get to 2032 for first flight. It is by all means just 2022

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

AMCA specs are too advanced for our industrial capabilities. We are capable of developing a lighter 5th generation aircraft with our technical capabilities today leaving out many of the technologies that IAF wants I corporated. Since stealth airframes are less efficient, they need more power. We can build a twin engine plane with slightly higher tonnage than Tejas.
IAF wants a panoramaic display cockpit, fibre optics for communication, helmet mounted display, OBOGs - all of which can be gradually introduced in an upgrade. Even we can get rid of internal weapons bay and introduce that in a larger later variant.
If we have a small stealth plane in air with air to air missile, J-20 and J-31 won't look intimidating any more. Unfortunately, IAF is not good at prioritizing, managing and developing capability - it knows how to shop and fight.

All the items you said are already in advanced stage or available for induction. Stealth bays can't be introduced later as it will require completely new design. If the plane is carrying external stores, it is not stealth

 

[HariPrasad-1]

That's what I said,

There will always be some compromise some where.

Stealth design invariably compromises Aerodynamics. With the arrival of new technology, Stealth are no more stealth now.

 

[lcafanboy]

The AMCA will feature geometric stealth and will initially fly with two GE-414 engines. Once we develop our own engine, it can be replaced with that. We expect the first flight in 2032,” a defence source said.

Either this writer has made a typo mistake or is on some exotic Afghan weed. The tender for development of full scale model is already out with completion by 2019-20 and first TD-1 roll out is expected by 2022-23 with first flight by 2024-25 and ioc by 2030 and FOC by 2032. IOC & FOC may deviate by 3yrs at max. So we will be having at least a sqdn by 2035.

 

[Chinmoy]

India building new fighter jet


The Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), India’s next indigenous fighter, is expected to make its first flight by 2032. Development work on the jet is under way.

“The AMCA will feature geometric stealth and will initially fly with two GE-414 engines. Once we develop our own engine, it can be replaced with that. We expect the first flight in 2032,” a defence source said.

“There are two major ways of making a military platform stealthier. One is geometric stealth and other is material stealth. In geometric stealth, the shape of the aircraft is designed at such angles so as to deflect away maximum radar waves thereby minimising its radar cross section. In material stealth, radar-absorbing materials are used in making the aircraft which will absorb the radio waves thus reducing the radar footprint. The AMCA will initially be based on geometric stealth, we can look at material stealth at a later stage,” the source said.

The Indian Air Force has given land to the Defence Research and Development Organisation to set up facilities for the project.

The plan is to build on the capabilities and expertise developed during the development of the light combat aircraft (LCA) and produce a medium fifth generation fighter aircraft.

“Apart from the technologies developed from the LCA project, the new fighter programme is important as technologies coming in through that will flow into the AMCA project,” another official source said.

The aircraft will be powered by the same GE-414 engine on the LCA Mk-2 variant which is in the design phase.

A GE-414 produces 98kN thrust compared to 84kN thrust of the GE-404 engine which is on the LCA Mk1.

At Aero India 2016, DRDO officials had stated that the basic design configuration has been frozen after wind tunnel testing and there are three critical technologies that need to be developed -- stealth, thrust vectoring and super cruise.

This is India’s only fifth generation aircraft programme following the decision not to go ahead with the fifth generation project with Russia.

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/india-building-new-fighter-jet/article24731939.ece

The most realistic article till date on AMCA I would say. Nice to know that atleast IAF is showing interest in it. But 2032 seems to be an typo as they are talking about F414 which we are already using in Tejas Mk2. But on other hand it could be true too because we would have to sign contract for more F414 post the current 83.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

The most realistic article till date on AMCA I would say. Nice to know that atleast IAF is showing interest in it. But 2032 seems to be an typo as they are talking about F414 which we are already using in Tejas Mk2. But on other hand it could be true too because we would have to sign contract for more F414 post the current 83.

AMCA will use F414 for prototypes only, not for main production. Main production will use kaveri engines with 62/100kN power in twin engine configuration

 

[Chinmoy]

AMCA will use F414 for prototypes only, not for main production. Main production will use kaveri engines with 62/100kN power in twin engine configuration

For that also we would have to reach to an agreement with GE for supply.

As of now we are not stocking up 414 for Mk2 and the supply and integration of the same would go hand in hand unless Kaveri reaches maturity and goes into production.

So a safe assumption of 2032 with 414 can't be discarded.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

For that also we would have to reach to an agreement with GE for supply.

As of now we are not stocking up 414 for Mk2 and the supply and integration of the same would go hand in hand unless Kaveri reaches maturity and goes into production.

So a safe assumption of 2032 with 414 can't be discarded.

I am speaking of Kaveri and you are speaking of F414??? I am saying that Kaveri engine is already about to be mature and there is no need for buying F414 engines to be used past 2025. Kaveri is already fit to fly by now as certified by France.

We only need F414 for prototype as new engines for prototype is generally avoided.

 

[Chinmoy]

I am speaking of Kaveri and you are speaking of F414??? I am saying that Kaveri engine is already about to be mature and there is no need for buying F414 engines to be used past 2025. Kaveri is already fit to fly by now as certified by France.

We only need F414 for prototype as new engines for prototype is generally avoided.

I am only talking about what is written in the report. Let me quote it.

“The AMCA will feature geometric stealth and will initially fly with two GE-414 engines. Once we develop our own engine, it can be replaced with that. We expect the first flight in 2032,” a defence source said.

It is saying that it would initially fly with GE-414 and the time line of 2032 is being proposed based on that only. Kaveri might be mature, but its still to undergo flight test in Indian condition. A engine can't be termed as mature unless and untill it is flight certified on varying altitude, thrust and other factors. Production comes after maturity and I am sure that ADA and HAL would not repeat the same mistake of Tejas by binding untested Kaveri to AMCA. So if you consider the scenario with GE414, then the timeline for 2032 is plausible enough.

Now if Kaveri goes into production in another 4 years and provided it delivers the required thrust for Tejas Mk2, we could sure see a ramp up production of AMCA post that. But engine alone is not a factor here. few more points from the report.

At Aero India 2016, DRDO officials had stated that the basic design configuration has been frozen after wind tunnel testing and there are three critical technologies that need to be developed -- stealth, thrust vectoring and super cruise.

Now these two underlined part may seem confusing. On one hand they are saying that design configuration has been frozen, but stealth part is still under development. Now at the very first they have mentioned that they would be going for structural stealth instead of material which means that this part has already been considered in conceptual and preliminary concept which has been frozen. Then why again say that we have to work on stealth?
Because a frozen design in itself doesn't mean that it is final. After conceptual and preliminary designing they would have to go for detail design phase. This is where the tweekings would come into play. We would have to design a 1:1 model and then do RCS test on it and based on the readings we would have to do necessary changes if needed.
Along with these thrust vectoring and super cruise is also there. If we are using GE414 engine, it doesn't have TV ability like Al41. Means we would have to work on structural thrust vectoring like F22. GE414 doesn't have the supercruise ability in itself, means again we have to work on that. Even Kaveri would not have it for sure in start.

The Indian Air Force has given land to the Defence Research and Development Organisation to set up facilities for the project.

Now if this is true, setting up of the facility in itself would take 3 years before commencement of the project.

Now taking all these in consideration, 2032 is a safe timeline to state. But again, this has been reported by 'The Hindu'. So I would take it with a pinch of salt.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

It is saying that it would initially fly with GE-414 and the time line of 2032 is being proposed based on that only. Kaveri might be mature, but its still to undergo flight test in Indian condition. A engine can't be termed as mature unless and untill it is flight certified on varying altitude, thrust and other factors. Production comes after maturity and I am sure that ADA and HAL would not repeat the same mistake of Tejas by binding untested Kaveri to AMCA. So if you consider the scenario with GE414, then the timeline for 2032 is plausible enough.

Now if Kaveri goes into production in another 4 years and provided it delivers the required thrust for Tejas Mk2, we could sure see a ramp up production of AMCA post that. But engine alone is not a factor here. few more points from the report.

How much time did F414 take to be made and then be used on F18 hornet? WHy act as of Kaveri is some special needs child that has extra needs? Be reasonable. Tomorrow you will say timeline of even 2050 is plausible enough. Once engine is certified, it is mature. No one says that something must be tested for 4 years to become mature. Time is irrelvant. The performance quality is what matters the most.

Now these two underlined part may seem confusing. On one hand they are saying that design configuration has been frozen, but stealth part is still under development. Now at the very first they have mentioned that they would be going for structural stealth instead of material which means that this part has already been considered in conceptual and preliminary concept which has been frozen. Then why again say that we have to work on stealth?
Because a frozen design in itself doesn't mean that it is final. After conceptual and preliminary designing they would have to go for detail design phase. This is where the tweekings would come into play. We would have to design a 1:1 model and then do RCS test on it and based on the readings we would have to do necessary changes if needed.
Along with these thrust vectoring and super cruise is also there. If we are using GE414 engine, it doesn't have TV ability like Al41. Means we would have to work on structural thrust vectoring like F22. GE414 doesn't have the supercruise ability in itself, means again we have to work on that. Even Kaveri would not have it for sure in start.

India is making its own engine, not getting F414. Should someone hit on your head to make you understand that a plane with imported engine is not an indigenous plane? Why act like a demented person insisting that Kaveri will not be mature, testing is needed and all other dramatics?

The design itself has been finalised and stealth is involved in it. Thrust vectoring is done in Al31F and India only needs to modify it. So, the basics of stealth and thrust vectoring is already present. SUper cruise is not a technology. It is just a combination of aerodynamics and TWR.

Now if this is true, setting up of the facility in itself would take 3 years before commencement of the project.

Now taking all these in consideration, 2032 is a safe timeline to state. But again, this has been reported by 'The Hindu'. So I would take it with a pinch of salt.

It is not a pinch of salt but only salt. Even after so many fake news, you still try to make sense of fake news and that is your serious problem. Whenever you get such news, just declare it fake news and move on instead of debating and assuming.that it is right.

Just say:

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Duplicate post. No delete option

 

[A chauhan]

From first flight in 2019 to now in 2032. I think these people have screw loose in their heads.

This must be a mistake, rather a joke.

 

[Chinmoy]

How much time did F414 take to be made and then be used on F18 hornet? WHy act as of Kaveri is some special needs child that has extra needs? Be reasonable. Tomorrow you will say timeline of even 2050 is plausible enough. Once engine is certified, it is mature. No one says that something must be tested for 4 years to become mature. Time is irrelvant. The performance quality is what matters the most.


India is making its own engine, not getting F414. Should someone hit on your head to make you understand that a plane with imported engine is not an indigenous plane? Why act like a demented person insisting that Kaveri will not be mature, testing is needed and all other dramatics?

The design itself has been finalised and stealth is involved in it. Thrust vectoring is done in Al31F and India only needs to modify it. So, the basics of stealth and thrust vectoring is already present. SUper cruise is not a technology. It is just a combination of aerodynamics and TWR.


It is not a pinch of salt but only salt. Even after so many fake news, you still try to make sense of fake news and that is your serious problem. Whenever you get such news, just declare it fake news and move on instead of debating and assuming.that it is right.

Just say:

Thing is not about whether Kaveri is ready or not....... PERIOD. Its just about the timeline reported in the report and nothing else.

The most realistic article till date on AMCA I would say. Nice to know that atleast IAF is showing interest in it. But 2032 seems to be an typo as they are talking about F414 which we are already using in Tejas Mk2. But on other hand it could be true too because we would have to sign contract for more F414 post the current 83.

See what I have written.

Moreover you want to discuss Kaveri and F414, there is another dedicated thread for that.

And for your intelligence sake..... France has certified Kaveri to be flight tested. But have we started it yet? Now rest about Kaveri could be discussed in relevant thread.

I am only saying about what is written in the report and on what basis these MIGHT have been written. If you can't understand this much also, you are free to live in your own world.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Thing is not about whether Kaveri is ready or not....... PERIOD. Its just about the timeline reported in the report and nothing else.


See what I have written.

Moreover you want to discuss Kaveri and F414, there is another dedicated thread for that.

And for your intelligence sake..... France has certified Kaveri to be flight tested. But have we started it yet? Now rest about Kaveri could be discussed in relevant thread.

I am only saying about what is written in the report and on what basis these MIGHT have been written. If you can't understand this much also, you are free to live in your own world.

We can't go on looking at the probable reasons behind everyone's thoughts. If things appear blatantly wrong, just dismiss as fake news. The number of fake news in important matters is rather high anyways

 

[Chinmoy]

We can't go on looking at the probable reasons behind everyone's thoughts. If things appear blatantly wrong, just dismiss as fake news. The number of fake news in important matters is rather high anyways

That's a way to look into news like this and as I already said, I would take it with a pinch of salt as it has came out of The Hindu stable.

But on other hand it is also possible that MoD, ADA, HAL all might be playing a safe hand and 2032 might be the maximum timeline period which they do offer. If that's the case, they might have already learnt a thing or two from LCA and its a good thing to do.