AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[SELVAM]

I smell conspiracy in parrikar removal from defence ministry. While parrikar is not in favour of more rafales, He also didn't support single engine figter theory.
But he had grand plan for tejas(more than 300 in numbers).

 

[IndianHawk]

IAF not in favour of acquiring Russian 5th gen jets, keen on DRDO Make in India project instead
The maintenance cost of the Russian planes is expected to be very high and similar to that of the Sukhoi-30 planes whose maintenance has been quite demanding.


It seems that the Indian Air Force (IAF) is not in favour of acquiring the 127 fifth-generation fighter aircraft from Russia due to the "very high cost" involved in the project. It in turn wants to back a DRDO Make in India project - which it is planning to develop a similar plane called Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

It is learnt that IAF's views on the aircraft programme have been conveyed to the defence ministry even as a government panel has expressed its views in favour of the programme.

"The Air Force has its reservations on the programme mainly on three points. First, the project cost is too high and way beyond what it had expected. The learning curve is not there as the project is already at an advanced stage and the stealth technology of the planes is not as advanced as that of the other similar planes," senior government sources told Mail Today.

MAINTENANCE COST VERY HIGH: IAF

The maintenance cost of the planes is also expected to be very high and similar to that of the Sukhoi-30 planes whose maintenance and upkeep has been quite demanding in their around 20 years in the force, they said.

The Russians were developing the aircraft known as PAKFA on their side as a counter to the American F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightening, which are considered the latest combat planes with stealth technologies and abilities to strike farther than their older counterparts.

"The cost of the FGFA progarmme is coming to be huge. While we have already spent close to $300 million (Rs 2,000 crore) on the preliminary design phase, the Russians are demanding $6.7 billion (Rs 44,800 crore) as the development cost of the planes which is coming to be much higher than what we had perceived," the sources revealed.

AIR MARSHAL SAYS OTHERWISE

"The Russians are asking us to make big investments in the programme. While we are planning to induct only 12 of these planes in their IAF, they are asking India to buy 127 of these aircraft," added the sources.

Sources said the investment of $6.7 billion (Rs 44,800 crore) would give India only four prototypes of the FGFA aircraft and it will have to pay another $135 million (Rs 900 crore) each for the 127 planes, which would be ready for induction only after 2027-28.

The cost per aircraft at the time of delivery in 2027-28, due to high inflation in defence deals, would come around $250 million bringing the total project value to around $32 billion (Rs 2 lakh crore), sources also said.

Air Marshal S Varthman committee has recommended that the IAF should go ahead to coproduce the planes with Russia and the Defence ministry has to decide on it taking into account both the viewpoints.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...ration-fighter-aircraft-russia/1/1039202.html

Wonderful . Stop the FGFA drama . Buy some PAKFA directly from Russia. And focus all the money for Amca. Or better yet get some f35 directly instead of PAKFA .

 

[IndianHawk]

During late 90s IAF was in favour of more Mirages. But ruskies bribed corrupt bastard mulayam singh and got sukhoi deal signed.

I see similar situation in respect to rafales.
While IAF is in favour of rafales politicians r trying to acquire some other jets

Conspiracy or not .we can't afford rafale more than a limited number. And rafale remains 4th gen jet we need something 5th gen.

 

[SELVAM]

Conspiracy or not .we can't afford rafale more than a limited number. And rafale remains 4th gen jet we need something 5th gen.

I read somewhere that russians prposed stealth jet is not stealthier than rafale

 

[sthf]

In short IAF wants to have the cake and eat it too.

"We don't want PAKFA as it is too expensive, let us have more Rafales instead."

Few years down the lane, "AMCA doesn't fulfill our requirements so we want a few squadrons of PAKFA till ADA can improve AMCA on the basis of 96 modifications we recommend like new engines, wings, fuselage, cockpit and tyres etc."

Also, "Two front war, squadron strength, sharks with friggin laser beams......"

 

[Razor]

If this is a step towards indigenisation, then well and good; though it will be a long process.

If it's a pretense to buy American shit, then we are doomed.

 

[square]

pakistan also looking to buy 5G fighter...
they got only two choices...

pakfa is one ....

 

[SELVAM]

If this is a step towards indigenisation, then well and good; though it will be a long process.

If it's a pretense to buy American shit, then we are doomed.

Agree,But i will take western weapons especially in aviation anyday over russian shits

 

[Cutting Edge 2]

Great news, I wish it becomes true. We must push indigenous projects first. AMCA is the right way to pursue 5th gen requirement.

IAF always had reservations about SU-57 but previous MoD wanted the deal to go through. Let's see if anything is changed under new gov. From what I have heard, MoD is in favour of Russian birds and IAF too is willing to go along if they get certain number of other birds.

Although negotiations are getting stuck over and over agin on certain old issues. Looks like Russians want us to sign another MKI type agreement but this time MoD is asking for a lot more. I would love to see how this deal goes through or doesn't?

It is also worth nothing that without Russian support it would be difficult to get certain key technologies. Remember there is no other country who is willing to share such technologies and Russian commitment based on their behaviour on negotiation table is also doubtful.

It would be better to develop a flawed 5th gen desi bird then to sign another MKI type agreement, only to realise its shortcomings later. India needs a strong aviation industry but it can't happen unless user is committed to the product, Including its shortcomings.

 

[Kchontha]

Wonderful . Stop the FGFA drama . Buy some PAKFA directly from Russia. And focus all the money for Amca. Or better yet get some f35 directly instead of PAKFA .

Definitely we should buy su57 of the shelf along with some of its technology that too in some 30s not in 100s just like GOI/MOD did to Rafale. These combat aircraft shouldn't/can't be the backbone of IAF. We have indigenous options like 4+++gen Tejas and fifth gen amca.

 

[airtel]

It Looks Like a Paid article ........................Because officially Air Marshal S Varthman panel has recommended Buying of Pak-fa .

1. High Cost ?? if we are getting technology then Cost is not High .
2. do not compare maintenance costs of a 5th gen. jet with 4th gen. jet .................I think maintaining costs of Pak-fa should be compared with F-22 .


it looks Like Paid article ................few days ago they wrote an article against Rafale .............and then in favor of F-16 and then in favor of Gripen .

Indian media dont have any character & I dont believe them .


I think India will buy Rafale & Pak-fa .................and we will not waste Money on F-16 , Gripen or F-18 .

 

[airtel]

"The cost of the FGFA progarmme is coming to be huge. While we have already spent close to $300 million (Rs 2,000 crore) on the preliminary design phase, the Russians are demanding $6.7 billion (Rs 44,800 crore) as the development cost of the planes which is coming to be much higher than what we had perceived," the sources revealed.

.

factually incorrect data .......... 6.7 billion$ must be the cost of whole program and India will pay only half of it .


a 5th generation Heavy Fighter would be costly to buy and costly to operate .

it looks like a paid propaganda by american , french or Swedish lobby .

 

[TPFscopes]

Yup 8-10 billion dollars seem too much .
Russia wants us to pay 3billion $ for FGFA and Russia will put 3billion so total 6 billion.

The total development cost is 7.2 bn USD for PAKFA and further stretched stretch for upto 8 bn USD to develop a twin seat derivative i.e. FGFA. Hence, Indian share in development would be nearly 4bn USD

But then it could be 3-4 billion $ for amca program plus 2 billion $ for jet engine program revival of kaveri., New ge engine for Amca .

No amount value can be fixed for any development because it is a continuous process. And no development is bound to any specific project because the experience gain in present development can be used in future developments.

 

[Vijyes]

Definitely we should buy su57 of the shelf along with some of its technology that too in some 30s not in 100s just like GOI/MOD did to Rafale. These combat aircraft shouldn't/can't be the backbone of IAF. We have indigenous options like 4+++gen Tejas and fifth gen amca.

We should only buy technology. Manufacturing should be hundred percent Indian. Buying off the shelf is not at all meaningful. Only if there is a condition to do so for ToT, it is OK to buy off the shelf.

Next, we need FGFA technology to fasten AMCA and it is beneficial to get it so that AMCA can be completed fully sooner than 2027

 

[TPFscopes]

if they can spend 9 billion $ on 36 Rafales then why not on AMCA ?? they should go For USA level technology .

This is a wrong perception spread all around that 36 rafales costs 8.87 bn USD but the reality is far different.
check it out

The per unit cost of the 36 Dassault Rafale deal that India signed with France on 23 September in New Delhi for EUR7.9 billion (USD8.9 billion) was around EUR141.66 million each, official sources said.

This included 28 single-seat and eight dual-seat Rafales for EUR3.3 billion - each priced at EUR91.1 million and EUR94 million, respectively - with an additional EUR1.8 billion for 14 Indian Air Force (IAF)- specific customisations.

The deal included the integration of a mix of locally developed and commercial off-the-shelf (COTS) weaponry and systems on the fighters, such as Israeli helmet-mounted display sights, assorted missiles, data-links, electronic warfare (EW), and identification friend-or-foe (IFF) systems.

http://www.janes.com/article/64169/details-emerge-on-cost-of-india-s-rafale-deal

further details:

 

[Anikastha]

If this is true , then I say go for desi deals

 

[Kchontha]

Ajit Kumar Dubey | New Delhi | Saturday, September 2, 2017
The maintenance cost of the Russian planes is expected to be very high and similar to that of the Sukhoi-30 planes whose maintenance has been quite demanding.
Air Marshal S Varthman panel has recommended that the IAF should go ahead to co-produce the planes with Russia
HIGHLIGHTS

IAF not in favour of acquiring 127 fifth-generation fighter aircraft from Russia.
The maintenance cost of the planes is also expected to be very high.
IAF wants to back a DRDO Make in India project.
It seems that the Indian Air Force (IAF) is not in favour of acquiring the 127 fifth-generation fighter aircraft from Russia due to the "very high cost" involved in the project. It in turn wants to back a DRDO Make in India project - which it is planning to develop a similar plane called Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

It is learnt that IAF's views on the aircraft programme have been conveyed to the defence ministry even as a government panel has expressed its views in favour of the programme.

"The Air Force has its reservations on the programme mainly on three points. First, the project cost is too high and way beyond what it had expected. The learning curve is not there as the project is already at an advanced stage and the stealth technology of the planes is not as advanced as that of the other similar planes," senior government sources told Mail Today.

MAINTENANCE COST VERY HIGH: IAF

The maintenance cost of the planes is also expected to be very high and similar to that of the Sukhoi-30 planes whose maintenance and upkeep has been quite demanding in their around 20 years in the force, they said.

The Russians were developing the aircraft known as PAKFA on their side as a counter to the American F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightening, which are considered the latest combat planes with stealth technologies and abilities to strike farther than their older counterparts.

"The cost of the FGFA progarmme is coming to be huge. While we have already spent close to $300 million (Rs 2,000 crore) on the preliminary design phase, the Russians are demanding $6.7 billion (Rs 44,800 crore) as the development cost of the planes which is coming to be much higher than what we had perceived," the sources revealed.

AIR MARSHAL SAYS OTHERWISE

"The Russians are asking us to make big investments in the programme. While we are planning to induct only 12 of these planes in their IAF, they are asking India to buy 127 of these aircraft," added the sources.
Sources said the investment of $6.7 billion (Rs 44,800 crore) would give India only four prototypes of the FGFA aircraft and it will have to pay another $135 million (Rs 900 crore) each for the 127 planes, which would be ready for induction only after 2027-28.


The cost per aircraft at the time of delivery in 2027-28, due to high inflation in defence deals, would come around $250 million bringing the total project value to around $32 billion (Rs 2 lakh crore), sources also said.

Air Marshal S Varthman committee has recommended that the IAF should go ahead to coproduce the planes with Russia and the Defence ministry has to decide on it taking into account both the viewpoints.

This is a fake news. But what India needs to do is buying a few su57 of the shelf along with some tot just like GOI did to Rafale deal. Indegenous Tejas and AMCA should be the backbone of IAF.

 

[tarunraju]

Does anyone seriously expect India to leap from Tejas to a 5th generation fighter? India needs to jump on Su-57 the moment it's open for foreign orders, with at least 36 units on order. The Chinese claim to have already built over 20 production-grade J-20s, and Su-30MKI's air-superiority edge won't hold for long.

It's self-defeating to develop a 5th generation fighter without wind tunnels and RCS testing facilities that are on Indian soil. The effort to build a 5th gen fighter should start, but at least two squadrons of Su-57 should also be on order.

 

[rohit b3]

People here are commenting as if we are gonna buy the jet from Russia lol. People seem to forget its supposed to be a Joint developement based on the PAK FA prototype .
India's target is getting more workshare for HAL, the best possible ToT and according to the last known understanding, FGFA could be exported too, with 50-50 share in profits.

 

[rohit b3]

We should only buy technology. Manufacturing should be hundred percent Indian. Buying off the shelf is not at all meaningful. Only if there is a condition to do so for ToT, it is OK to buy off the shelf.

Next, we need FGFA technology to fasten AMCA and it is beneficial to get it so that AMCA can be completed fully sooner than 2027

We shouldn BUY anything. Ever heard of R&D? Other countries do that.