AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[TPFscopes]

AMCA, as HAL claims, will feature a totally new concept in fighter aircrafts technology called self repair/self protection skin with the help of self diagnosing/healing. It works by distributing the system data/work load from affected to non-affected system. To achieve this,nanotechnology would be put into a general use to produce advanced composite materials to sustain heavy damage and reduce the effective damage area.

D.r. V.K Saraswat,chairman of DRDO confirmed that aircraft will use Self Repairing Flight Control Capability which will be used in the aircraft to automatically detect failures or damage in its flight control surfaces, and using the remaining control surfaces, calibrate accordingly to retain controlled flight. Usage of such adaptive neural networks would be the core feature in self healing as they can record all the faults occurred and also can learn from the previous faults.

 

[scatterStorm]

Item 30 engine, maybe there is chance we use this engine for AMCA also (if the FGFA project works)

What engine would be for AURA? Kaveri?

Let's not be hasty over here, Russians aren't giving us item-30 that easily, if history tells us, it's only possible if we purchase something more ... there idea of "upselling".

Kaveri is imminent to be used in GHATAK UCAV, as even 85KN T/W is good for it.

IMO it's a good opportunity to first test it on Ghatak then on AMCA with afterburners(reheat), it's just I hope if they are successful to deliver an enhanced T/W of 100-110KN at least, anything less than that is an utter failure considering we appointed SAFRAN for some "consulting".

 

[scatterStorm]

AMCA, as HAL claims, will feature a totally new concept in fighter aircrafts technology called self repair/self protection skin with the help of self diagnosing/healing. It works by distributing the system data/work load from affected to non-affected system. To achieve this,nanotechnology would be put into a general use to produce advanced composite materials to sustain heavy damage and reduce the effective damage area.

D.r. V.K Saraswat,chairman of DRDO confirmed that aircraft will use Self Repairing Flight Control Capability which will be used in the aircraft to automatically detect failures or damage in its flight control surfaces, and using the remaining control surfaces, calibrate accordingly to retain controlled flight. Usage of such adaptive neural networks would be the core feature in self healing as they can record all the faults occurred and also can learn from the previous faults.

Finally Advanced ANN's comes into picture, cool indeed. If it's true than we certainly are looking at a big picture, but I will take this concept of using it with a pinch of salt. We aren't that good in Nano-tech both in terms of patents and research paper in some key academic journals. I was doing some research to whether Russian are using such thing on there SU50s which is pure BS anyways. I found that countries dominating in such tech are US, Japan, S-Korea, Taiwan etc but India certainly is not.



If we could achieve such feat, than certainly AMCA would be a marvel in aviation! Let's hope so it does.

 

[scatterStorm]

When it comes to technology Rafael is way ahead of anything China has in their inventory. Even better than SU-35 or Eurofighter.

I have to agree on Rafale part though, it a good jet, it was able to Jam F22 in WVR fight and had a lock on and fired Fox-2 in a simulated exercise. Since than I consider all 5th gen to be paper tigers as well, because if a 4++ gen fighter could do that, than we don't need Stealth jet's.

But there are certain arenas in air theatre where they are useful, especially in shock and awe tactics. Having even those in an air-theatre mean adversary will have to think twice before doing something, a psyOps of it's kind.

 

[TPFscopes]

I have to agree on Rafale part though, it a good jet, it was able to Jam F22 in WVR fight and had a lock on and fired Fox-2 in a simulated exercise. Since than I consider all 5th gen to be paper tigers as well, because if a 4++ gen fighter could do that, than we don't need Stealth jet's.

But there are certain arenas in air theatre where they are useful, especially in shock and awe tactics. Having even those in an air-theatre mean adversary will have to think twice before doing something, a psyOps of it's kind.

That simulated exercise was purely intended for WVR whereas the main aim of 5th generation jet is to engage HVT's in BVR combat.

 

[scatterStorm]

Further, adding, yes Rafale is technogicaly better plane, but few things
a) Item 30 would start production from next year, and as per news by 2018, PAKFA with item 30 engines should be available

b) Rafale is way ahead of anything in our neighbourhood is a sheer irresponsible statement, What are you aware of the Chinese developments? Just to give you a point, China is going for two 5th Gen projects, Where as France is developing a few techs and putting them on Rafale and pimping them as 5th Gen planes. So, when you dont know about what technology China has, its stupid to assume that they would still be armed with 19th Century weapons. For example there is a new product called Graphene, and China has more patents filed for it than USA and UK combined.

c) By the way, we dont have Rafale, its still only in France, we have paid the installment and the planes are being produced, so as of now, w have ZERO Rafale. How many Rafales available with IAF if we want to strike Pakistan tomorrow ? ZERO

d) When you compare Rafale with Su-35 or Eurofighter, In few recent exercises, Indian Su-30 MKI beat Eurofighters in UK (and it became a big news) and Rafale in Rajasthan, And just to point it out to you, Su-35 outperforms Su-30 MKI in big way, the plane has better engine with higher thrust, So simply saying Su-35 is more capable than Su-30 MKI., And Su-30 MKI beat the eurocanards,. So get your comparison correct.
Further to a point , a few months back in Syria, when Russians sent their Su-30 SM to Syria, France quietly limited the flights of its Rafales into Iraq only, avoiding Syria entirely. Before he Russians came with their Su-30 SM, the French were conducting operations in Iraq and Syria.

Rafale is the wet dream of IAF chiefs and so even when govt was in discussions with Dassault, it was IAF chiefs which were giving some interviews out of line like saying "there is no plan B" in a way their actions look similar to sickulars who went to meet the Hurriyat guys for talking Peace after surgical strikes

PAKFA is not going to be cheap, but not expensive as Rafale,.Further its a purpose built 5th Gen plane unlike Rafale which is actually a development that started with Mirage III (Mirage III >>> Mirage 2000 >>> Mirage 4000 >> Rafale ) Rafale does not have shaping of 5th Gen plane but depends on jammers for its "stealth" unfortunately Electronic stealth can be defeated. Just need better avionics with good power which fortunately the Russians have.

For IAF, they need LCA MK1A and Mk2 and not Gripen. Sure we need the EW suite of Gripen. We also need say 150 PAKFA/FGFA and then develop AMCA and then get those to replace Jaguars, Mirage 2000 and MiG-29

Again as I mentioned earlier on some thread, the reason why our boys are doing good on MKIs is because of the training. It's just not the machine. I realized this when we were able to survive in Red flag, Indradhanush and at Pokhran with Rafale's, considering our boys aren't allowed to use full avionics suite in those air exercise, which means they were fighting partially, blindly. No radars were switched on, this means our boy's are certainly good if not best.

But if I think our boys could get more teeth in there jaw, then what's bad in having Rafale too, I mean it also defeated an F22 in an air exercise, certainly avionics were doing it's role but more importantly it was the pilot ultimately who was moving the plane in WVR fight. ECM were doing a hell of a job back there. So what's bad in that?

 

[scatterStorm]

That simulated exercise was purely intended for WVR whereas the main aim of 5th generation jet is to engage HVT's in BVR combat.

Who told you that Rafale can't engage in a BVR battle! Have you heard about MBDA Meteor!

 

[TPFscopes]

Who told you that Rafale can't engage in a BVR battle! Have you heard about MBDA Meteor!

I didn't say "it can't" but I can say " It didn't"
To engage any Enemy jet , one need to trace it before your enemy.
F-22 has AN/APG-77 radar ,which is its primary sensor and is a long-range, rapid-scan, and multi-functional system. F-22 also has AIM-120.

Plz clarify your doubts on the advantages of stealth Aircrafts.

 

[Bahamut]

AMCA, as HAL claims, will feature a totally new concept in fighter aircrafts technology called self repair/self protection skin with the help of self diagnosing/healing. It works by distributing the system data/work load from affected to non-affected system. To achieve this,nanotechnology would be put into a general use to produce advanced composite materials to sustain heavy damage and reduce the effective damage area.

D.r. V.K Saraswat,chairman of DRDO confirmed that aircraft will use Self Repairing Flight Control Capability which will be used in the aircraft to automatically detect failures or damage in its flight control surfaces, and using the remaining control surfaces, calibrate accordingly to retain controlled flight. Usage of such adaptive neural networks would be the core feature in self healing as they can record all the faults occurred and also can learn from the previous faults.

Why is it called self healing skin when it is a AI which simply distributes the load of the damaged surface to other one. Adaptive surface controls systems sounds more close to concept

 

[Butter Chicken]

Kaveri is imminent to be used in GHATAK UCAV, as even 85KN T/W is good for it.

There has also been talk of using Kaveri in train locomotives.

 

[scatterStorm]

I didn't say "it can't" but I can say " It didn't"
To engage any Enemy jet , one need to trace it before your enemy.
F-22 has AN/APG-77 radar ,which is its primary sensor and is a long-range, rapid-scan, and multi-functional system. F-22 also has AIM-120.

Plz clarify your doubts on the advantages of stealth Aircrafts.

Much to your dissatisfaction let me tell you that, AN APG-77 is not some cast-and-stone radar that cannot be dealt with using modern ECM suites and newer AEWCs(US is pitching some of em to japs to detect 5th gen Chinks jets), let alone the entire asset, the F22, moreover it's a decade old tech now. Today if an F22 engages in a well denied airspace, it's going to be tough time for it, I can even imagine it to carry more AIM-120D's on external pylons to survive.

On the topic of AN APG-77, it queues target identification using LPI to it's fire-control radar via low powered signals that are discarded by aggressor jets as "noise", this was established in the 90s when it had an edge, today not so much. ECM suites can now identify such spread spectrum attacks.

On BVR engagement with AIM120Ds, it's quite funny to tell but it's true, If an F22 fires an AIM120D way away from 100 Km or say 200Km, at MACH 3+ it has a unique thermal signature that is detectable by present IRST systems from 100Km away. Meaning that aggressor will not only be in position to evade but also detect the target source, this was demonstrated by "quantum well tech" by Typhoons on China lake.

Clarify my doubts on advantages of stealth aircrafts? ... Oh I certainly do doubt them sire, they are "paper-tiger" planes anyways up till now. F22 haven't seen a daylight of actual battle ... they just roam around in 3rd world countries airspace like Syria, Libya etc. Any invitation from Russian or Chinks airspace is a serious death-wish.

To me it seems the only advantage 5th gen jet's have is, if they detect an adversary jet which is outside of the NCW bubble and is 4th gen jet.

 

[TPFscopes]

Why is it called self healing skin when it is a AI which simply distributes the load of the damaged surface to other one. Adaptive surface controls systems sounds more close to concept

HAL knows?
.......................

 

[Certified Gipsy]

AMCA, as HAL claims, will feature a totally new concept in fighter aircrafts technology called self repair/self protection skin with the help of self diagnosing/healing. It works by distributing the system data/work load from affected to non-affected system. To achieve this,nanotechnology would be put into a general use to produce advanced composite materials to sustain heavy damage and reduce the effective damage area.

D.r. V.K Saraswat,chairman of DRDO confirmed that aircraft will use Self Repairing Flight Control Capability which will be used in the aircraft to automatically detect failures or damage in its flight control surfaces, and using the remaining control surfaces, calibrate accordingly to retain controlled flight. Usage of such adaptive neural networks would be the core feature in self healing as they can record all the faults occurred and also can learn from the previous faults.

This one must be very old. Dr. V.K Saraswat retired as the DRDO chairman in May 2013.

 

[smestarz]

With one snapshot you came to a conclusion that F-22 was taken down by Rafale? There are a lot of stories about that "combat"

Again as I mentioned earlier on some thread, the reason why our boys are doing good on MKIs is because of the training. It's just not the machine. I realized this when we were able to survive in Red flag, Indradhanush and at Pokhran with Rafale's, considering our boys aren't allowed to use full avionics suite in those air exercise, which means they were fighting partially, blindly. No radars were switched on, this means our boy's are certainly good if not best.

But if I think our boys could get more teeth in there jaw, then what's bad in having Rafale too, I mean it also defeated an F22 in an air exercise, certainly avionics were doing it's role but more importantly it was the pilot ultimately who was moving the plane in WVR fight. ECM were doing a hell of a job back there. So what's bad in that?

 

[TPFscopes]

This one must be very old. Dr. V.K Saraswat retired as the DRDO chairman in May 2013.

Shri Saraswat presently is the Member NITI Aayog and shouldering many honorary positions in Government and Academic Institutions.
For AMCA project, he is Government's man to look over the Project.

 

[harish.kaks]

Can a 4.5+ gen aircraft be launched based on the AMCA design before 2020 as most of the technology for a 4.5 twin engine is avilable with us and also AMCA airframe design is done. So only few 5th generation technologies like stealth coatings and few other advanced tech which still we are working on ,will not be included in that aircraft and rest all other 4.5 gen features available with it. This can satisfy some of the needs of IAF and as the airframe is same later these can be upgraded to the AMCA 5th gen standard. May be a quick solution for twin engine aircrafts. Because AMCA may come only after 2030. Am i wrong in my thinking ?

 

[SATISH]

Well according to me ditching the LCA MK2 and bringing in the navy for development of AMCA as a partner will be a much more viable solution right now.

 

[aditya10r]

Well according to me ditching the LCA MK2 and bringing in the navy for development of AMCA as a partner will be a much more viable solution right now.

You ditch the tejas mk2,the armed forces will happily ditch AMCA

 

[SATISH]

You ditch the tejas mk2,the armed forces will happily ditch AMCA

Well a light interceptor and point defence fighter is already present in the form of LCA MK1A. LCA MK2 is is waste of time. I rather pour my resources into the next generation fighter instead of an earlier generation fighter. All the tech for the AMCA is already there. The engines have been ordered and JV started with Snecma, The cockpit designs, Radars, Electronic warfare, The whole manufacturing and assembly infrastructure. So why not go for the next generation? But noooo....DRDO will be the same as long as the Indian mindset of the IIT and NIT nexus stays.

 

[TPFscopes]

Well a light interceptor and point defence fighter is already present in the forof LCA MK1A. LCA MK2 is is waste of time. I rather pour my resources into the next generation fighter instead of an earlier generation fighter. All the tech for the AMCA is already there. The engines have been ordered and JV started with Snecma, The cockpit designs, Radars, Electronic warfare, The whole manufacturing and assembly infrastructure. So why not go for the next generation? But noooo....DRDO will be the same as long as the Indian mindset of the IIT and NIT nexus stays.

1. Both projects are developing in Parallel.
2. Tejas MK2 development is way ahead of AMCA.
3. Scientists uses the know how and experience gained with Tejas , in AMCA.
This might be too bad to ditch a project at it Advanced stage.