AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[Indx TechStyle]

Kaha rehte ho bhai aaj kal?? Gadhe ke sing ban gaye ho .... :bounce::bounce::bounce:

Zindagi hichkole de rahi hai, bhabhi la raha hu teri.

 

[aditya10r]

Zindagi hichkole de rahi hai, bhabhi la raha hu teri.

PARTY.........................................................................................................................................................................

 

[smestarz]

YES, the TWR of Kaveri is not suitable for requirements of IAF. so with that, there is no Kaveri engine,. and without Kaveri engine there would be no Tejas. Thus if some wise guy was not smart enough to ask GE F404 engine and F414 in future, we would be probably happy about signing deal for F-16 Block 60 or Gripen

GE F414-in6 has dry weight of 1176Kg where as Kaveri GTX-35vs has dry weight of 1181Kgs (which will be reduced after design Completion.

GE F414 has dry thurst of 57Kn & afterburner thurst of 97Kn where as Kaveri has 53Kn dry and 81Kn afterburner (proposed >95Kn) thurst.

 

[TPFscopes]

YES, the TWR of Kaveri is not suitable for requirements of IAF. so with that, there is no Kaveri engine,. and without Kaveri engine there would be no Tejas. Thus if some wise guy was not smart enough to ask GE F404 engine and F414 in future, we would be probably happy about signing deal for F-16 Block 60 or Gripen

Proposed TWR for Kaveri GTX-35vs is 9:1 which is very similar to F414-IN6.
Yup, its correct that Tejas has no future in exports without Indigenous stuff, specially Engine.
Hope, SNECMA will be able to sort out Kaveri hiccups.
Also there is some doubtful information that DRDO is jointly working with EJ for a new engine.

 

[sayareakd]

Looks like FGFA project in trouble. AMCA would benefitted from it.



http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...raft-programme-indian-air-force/1/959013.html

An ambitious Indo-Russian project to co-develop fifth generation fighter planes has hit major roadblocks over the issues of price and technology even as New Delhi has scrapped a programme to jointly produce multirole transport aircraft with Moscow over similar issues.
India and Russia had signed an agreement around 2007 to co-develop both the transport plane and the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) as part of their attempt to pool in resources to develop latest and advanced variants of the aircraft to meet the global challenges in this domain. "We have decided to scrap the Multirole Transport Aircraft (MTA) as we don't need the plane anymore due to issues over the technology offered for the planes and constant delays," government sources told Mail Today.

RUSSIAN STANDARD NOT GOOD ENOUGH?

The decision of the government and the Air Force has been conveyed to the Russians some time back, they said. On the FGFA programme, the sources said the aircraft being built under the plan are going to cost much more than what the Indian Air Force had expected and the technology on offer from Russia is also not up to global standards.
The Russians were developing the aircraft known as PAK-FA on their side as a counter to the American F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightening which are considered the latest combat planes with stealth technologies and abilities to strike farther than their older counterparts.
"The cost of the FGFA progarmme is coming to be huge. While we have already spent close to US$ 300 million (Rs 2,000 crore) on the preliminary design phase, the Russians are demanding US$ 6.7 billion (Rs 44,800 crore) as the development cost of the planes which is coming to be much higher than what we had perceived," the sources revealed

'RUSSIA WANTS US TO BUY 127 AIRCRAFT'

"The Russians are asking us to make big investments in the programme. While we are planning to induct only 12 of these planes in their IAF, they are asking India to buy 127 of these aircraft," added the sources. Sources said the investment of USD 6.7 billion (Rs 44,800 crore) would give India only four prototypes of the FGFA aircraft and it will have to pay another USD 135 million (Rs 900 crore) each for the 127 planes which we would be ready for induction only after the year 2027-28.
The overall cost of the project for the IAF is likely to come out to USD 24 billion (Rs 1,60,000 crore) which is almost the double the amount the force had envisaged when the project was initiated, the sources said. The IAF had first started negotiating for the acquisition of more than 210 planes and wanted an equal share in terms of technology development as it was making equal investment in the project.
Sources said a committee has been formed under Air Marshal (retired) S Varthaman to see whether the FGFA planes were actually required by the IAF and how did the Russian aircraft compared with the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) proposed by the DRDO to be developed as an indigenous fifth generation combat plane.

The Varthaman committee has already given presentations to defence minister Arun Jaitley on the matter as the government has to take a final call on whether the FGFA is required or not. Sources said the decision on developing the AMCA will have to be taken in near future as it will take at least 15 years for the plane to come out of the drawing board to join the IAF for operational service

 

[Cutting Edge 2]

Looks like FGFA project in trouble. AMCA would benefitted from it.



http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...raft-programme-indian-air-force/1/959013.html

An ambitious Indo-Russian project to co-develop fifth generation fighter planes has hit major roadblocks over the issues of price and technology even as New Delhi has scrapped a programme to jointly produce multirole transport aircraft with Moscow over similar issues.
India and Russia had signed an agreement around 2007 to co-develop both the transport plane and the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) as part of their attempt to pool in resources to develop latest and advanced variants of the aircraft to meet the global challenges in this domain. "We have decided to scrap the Multirole Transport Aircraft (MTA) as we don't need the plane anymore due to issues over the technology offered for the planes and constant delays," government sources told Mail Today.

RUSSIAN STANDARD NOT GOOD ENOUGH?

The decision of the government and the Air Force has been conveyed to the Russians some time back, they said. On the FGFA programme, the sources said the aircraft being built under the plan are going to cost much more than what the Indian Air Force had expected and the technology on offer from Russia is also not up to global standards.
The Russians were developing the aircraft known as PAK-FA on their side as a counter to the American F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightening which are considered the latest combat planes with stealth technologies and abilities to strike farther than their older counterparts.
"The cost of the FGFA progarmme is coming to be huge. While we have already spent close to US$ 300 million (Rs 2,000 crore) on the preliminary design phase, the Russians are demanding US$ 6.7 billion (Rs 44,800 crore) as the development cost of the planes which is coming to be much higher than what we had perceived," the sources revealed

'RUSSIA WANTS US TO BUY 127 AIRCRAFT'

"The Russians are asking us to make big investments in the programme. While we are planning to induct only 12 of these planes in their IAF, they are asking India to buy 127 of these aircraft," added the sources. Sources said the investment of USD 6.7 billion (Rs 44,800 crore) would give India only four prototypes of the FGFA aircraft and it will have to pay another USD 135 million (Rs 900 crore) each for the 127 planes which we would be ready for induction only after the year 2027-28.
The overall cost of the project for the IAF is likely to come out to USD 24 billion (Rs 1,60,000 crore) which is almost the double the amount the force had envisaged when the project was initiated, the sources said. The IAF had first started negotiating for the acquisition of more than 210 planes and wanted an equal share in terms of technology development as it was making equal investment in the project.
Sources said a committee has been formed under Air Marshal (retired) S Varthaman to see whether the FGFA planes were actually required by the IAF and how did the Russian aircraft compared with the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) proposed by the DRDO to be developed as an indigenous fifth generation combat plane.

The Varthaman committee has already given presentations to defence minister Arun Jaitley on the matter as the government has to take a final call on whether the FGFA is required or not. Sources said the decision on developing the AMCA will have to be taken in near future as it will take at least 15 years for the plane to come out of the drawing board to join the IAF for operational service

MoD must resist temptation of buying fake 5th gen Russian junk. Lets not agree to another Admiral Gorshkov. We should focus on building an indigenous jet for next decade. Meanwhile buy some more Rafale and substitute falling squad nos with make in India Gripen. This is really not that complex. Hope IAF understands this.

 

[sthf]

Whether you like it or not, India will have to buy a few squadrons of PAK FA for China border. There are no other options.

But this doesn't mean India has to play Russian game of chicken. Leave the joint development program if logjam persists. Buy them as off the shelf purchases till AMCA comes online.

 

[Cutting Edge 2]

Whether you like it or not, India will have to buy a few squadrons of PAK FA for China border. There are no other options.

But this doesn't mean India has to play Russian game of chicken. Leave the joint development program if logjam persists. Buy them as off the shelf purchases till AMCA comes online.

We don't need Pak-Fa for Chinese border. Rafale along with good air defence system will take care of Chinese threat until AMCA arrives. Remember China doesn't have proper 5th gen plane. All they have is a paper tiger.

 

[TPFscopes]

I don't know why there is no information in public regarding the decisions taken in the committee meeting held on 15 May'17.
I think Government is going to peel off russian denial of sharing Technology.
While signing Su-30 deal , IAF don't like to buy them in huge numbers but Government Ordered them in such quantity to help Russia during economy collapse. It's time to pay for it.

 

[Butter Chicken]

I don't know why there is no information in public regarding the decisions taken in the committee meeting held on 15 May'17.
I think Government is going to peel off russian denial of sharing Technology.
While signing Su-30 deal , IAF don't like to buy them in huge numbers but Government Ordered them in such quantity to help Russia during economy collapse. It's time to pay for it.

When Russians themselves have no interest in T-50 how can they expect us to show interest?We helped them with Su-30 MKI deal when they were in deep trouble but they backstabbed us with Admiral Gorshkov

 

[ezsasa]

When Russians themselves have no interest in T-50 how can they expect us to show interest?We helped them with Su-30 MKI deal when they were in deep trouble but they backstabbed us with Admiral Gorshkov

Business is business, we have to let go of this thought process of back stabbing etc.. Russia and India don't owe anything to each other.

If a deal has gone bad, people who were involved in making the deal are responsible, not the country or organisation.

 

[xeaaex]

If you buy foreign product instead of a domastic one you will always find ome step behind them.
You won't be able to develop a single domestic product with this mentality.
Trust me and once the time goes it will get much harder.

 

[smestarz]

For Tejas to be a fighter that India wants, we should have Kaveri and without any strings attached,
There are many smaller asian countries which would be interested in Tejas for securing their national boundaries.

Safran (who you call SNECMA) will be able to make good changes that is required as per the offset requirement for Rafale purchase, but if Safran find it difficult, they might just be short of producing M-88 engine, which is not really a powerful engine, Its ok for Rafale but not for Tejas.

Working with 3 different projects might stretch us and ultimately we might end up paying for a project or two for no reason at all.

But few things are sure, Kaveri engine would be for Tejas Mk 2
If there is engine development with EJ230 that might for AMCA. or other 5th Gen project.
GE F-414 ToT might not be possible because of Trump now being the president.
Item 30 engine, maybe there is chance we use this engine for AMCA also (if the FGFA project works)

What engine would be for AURA? Kaveri?

Proposed TWR for Kaveri GTX-35vs is 9:1 which is very similar to F414-IN6.
Yup, its correct that Tejas has no future in exports without Indigenous stuff, specially Engine.
Hope, SNECMA will be able to sort out Kaveri hiccups.
Also there is some doubtful information that DRDO is jointly working with EJ for a new engine.

 

[smestarz]

Anything that India today reports should be taken with grain of salt. They are best to talk about whats happening in Congress party, about defence matters, not a good source

Looks like FGFA project in trouble. AMCA would benefitted from it.



http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...raft-programme-indian-air-force/1/959013.html

An ambitious Indo-Russian project to co-develop fifth generation fighter planes has hit major roadblocks over the issues of price and technology even as New Delhi has scrapped a programme to jointly produce multirole transport aircraft with Moscow over similar issues.
India and Russia had signed an agreement around 2007 to co-develop both the transport plane and the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) as part of their attempt to pool in resources to develop latest and advanced variants of the aircraft to meet the global challenges in this domain. "We have decided to scrap the Multirole Transport Aircraft (MTA) as we don't need the plane anymore due to issues over the technology offered for the planes and constant delays," government sources told Mail Today.

RUSSIAN STANDARD NOT GOOD ENOUGH?

The decision of the government and the Air Force has been conveyed to the Russians some time back, they said. On the FGFA programme, the sources said the aircraft being built under the plan are going to cost much more than what the Indian Air Force had expected and the technology on offer from Russia is also not up to global standards.
The Russians were developing the aircraft known as PAK-FA on their side as a counter to the American F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightening which are considered the latest combat planes with stealth technologies and abilities to strike farther than their older counterparts.
"The cost of the FGFA progarmme is coming to be huge. While we have already spent close to US$ 300 million (Rs 2,000 crore) on the preliminary design phase, the Russians are demanding US$ 6.7 billion (Rs 44,800 crore) as the development cost of the planes which is coming to be much higher than what we had perceived," the sources revealed

'RUSSIA WANTS US TO BUY 127 AIRCRAFT'

"The Russians are asking us to make big investments in the programme. While we are planning to induct only 12 of these planes in their IAF, they are asking India to buy 127 of these aircraft," added the sources. Sources said the investment of USD 6.7 billion (Rs 44,800 crore) would give India only four prototypes of the FGFA aircraft and it will have to pay another USD 135 million (Rs 900 crore) each for the 127 planes which we would be ready for induction only after the year 2027-28.
The overall cost of the project for the IAF is likely to come out to USD 24 billion (Rs 1,60,000 crore) which is almost the double the amount the force had envisaged when the project was initiated, the sources said. The IAF had first started negotiating for the acquisition of more than 210 planes and wanted an equal share in terms of technology development as it was making equal investment in the project.
Sources said a committee has been formed under Air Marshal (retired) S Varthaman to see whether the FGFA planes were actually required by the IAF and how did the Russian aircraft compared with the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) proposed by the DRDO to be developed as an indigenous fifth generation combat plane.

The Varthaman committee has already given presentations to defence minister Arun Jaitley on the matter as the government has to take a final call on whether the FGFA is required or not. Sources said the decision on developing the AMCA will have to be taken in near future as it will take at least 15 years for the plane to come out of the drawing board to join the IAF for operational service

 

[TPFscopes]

But few things are sure, Kaveri engine would be for Tejas Mk 2
If there is engine development with EJ230 that might for AMCA. or other 5th Gen project.
GE F-414 ToT might not be possible because of Trump now being the president.
Item 30 engine, maybe there is chance we use this engine for AMCA also (if the FGFA project works)

What engine would be for AURA? Kaveri?

AURA/GHATAK will have non-reheat version of KAVERI (which is already developed, fine-tuning remaining).
Rafale is also looking for higher thurst Engine Replacement. If Safranised Kaveri meets it's success than there will some chances to put it in RAFALEs.
There is no scope for item-30 for AMCA.

 

[smestarz]

Now that is coming from some who does not understand defence, and Russia.
Russia is purchasing Su-30 SM. Also Su-35S which was developed as an advanced Flanker based on the experienced learnt on Su-37 Terminator, testing etc.

Now few things one might ask a wise person,. If Russians dont have interest, would it not be stupid to invest so much funds into research and development? Look at it, New Radar, New Avionics, new missiles, new engines,
At present the conflicts in which Russia is involved (in Middle east) even Su-35 is an overkill, but nevertheless they want to use it so that the pilots gain experience and also its a deterrent from NATO forces trying anything stupid.

We have seen that though F-22 is in operation for a decade, how much action has it seen? None, so the chances for PAKFA to see action in RuAF is almost none too. On other hand, India has urgent need of 5th Gen plane, China has two projects with one already in LRIP (J-20) so can we rely to fight Chinese 5th Gen planes with Su-30 MKI (even Super sukhoi). Rafale etc? The gung ho people might say "YES WE HAVE THE BEST FRENCH PLANE " True, but what other plane do French have? Falcon business jets.. Rafale is a good plane, but would we underestimate the Chinese 5th Gen plane., Can we take that chance? Would you?

The Russians want 12 so that they can use it and develop tactics for it, it is not an urgent need for them, But for India with one of our neighbour having some 5th Gen planes coming soon, might be better to have a few squadrons in hand (36-54 planes)

I am not of the opinion to have 200+ PAKFA or Rafale. We already have Su-30 MKI and we should use them as force multipliers and use their range to our advantage. where we can use the numbers to benefit,

126 PAKFA/FGFA should be more than sufficient (rather an over kill too) the more advanced the generation more will be the cost of operation and maintenance. And these shortfall in numbers should be made up using LCA but important point is not to make it too advanced that the cost of operation becomes exorbitant.

AMCA project should be mainly a naval project as per me. with Navy also using the plane from its land bases to secure our maritime borders and even threatening the Pakistani maritime border from bases in Gujarat.

Su-30 MKI deal helped us more than that, its due to Su-30MKI that PAF remains grounded when Su-30MKI are in the air.,

About Admiral goroshkov, not sure who the real culprit is. Its true that Russians wanted to get rid of it, and wanted it modified and they offered some 40 MiG-29K along with it, Maybe our evaluators were wrong about the evaluation Let us say the Russians tried to fool us, what the hell were our people doing giving them a free hand? How about there being a case of kickbacks? possible? Vikramaditya may not be the carrier we really wanted, but its one thing with which we can provide area denial to Pakistani maritime border. If Vikramaditya not there, and our submarine force in such a state, what would you depend on to counter pakistan?

When Russians themselves have no interest in T-50 how can they expect us to show interest?We helped them with Su-30 MKI deal when they were in deep trouble but they backstabbed us with Admiral Gorshkov

 

[smestarz]

Perfect to the point, and we have to remember this experience and not be fooled in the same way again, else we did not learn anything.

Business is business, we have to let go of this thought process of back stabbing etc.. Russia and India don't owe anything to each other.

If a deal has gone bad, people who were involved in making the deal are responsible, not the country or organisation.

 

[smestarz]

For some reason, I feel AMCA would end up using Item 30.

AURA/GHATAK will have non-reheat version of KAVERI (which is already developed, fine-tuning remaining).
Rafale is also looking for higher thurst Engine Replacement. If Safranised Kaveri meets it's success than there will some chances to put it in RAFALEs.
There is no scope for item-30 for AMCA.

 

[TPFscopes]

For some reason, I feel AMCA would end up using Item 30.

Item-30 will have very high output Compared to the requirements of AMCA. It also need to prove itself.
Presently HAL has licence production of AL-31 which is still have higher thurst than the required thurst for AMCA.

 

[indiandefencefan]

For Tejas to be a fighter that India wants, we should have Kaveri and without any strings attached,
There are many smaller asian countries which would be interested in Tejas for securing their national boundaries.

Safran (who you call SNECMA) will be able to make good changes that is required as per the offset requirement for Rafale purchase, but if Safran find it difficult, they might just be short of producing M-88 engine, which is not really a powerful engine, Its ok for Rafale but not for Tejas.

Working with 3 different projects might stretch us and ultimately we might end up paying for a project or two for no reason at all.

But few things are sure, Kaveri engine would be for Tejas Mk 2
If there is engine development with EJ230 that might for AMCA. or other 5th Gen project.
GE F-414 ToT might not be possible because of Trump now being the president.
Item 30 engine, maybe there is chance we use this engine for AMCA also (if the FGFA project works)

What engine would be for AURA? Kaveri?

I don't know why there is no information in public regarding the decisions taken in the committee meeting held on 15 May'17.
I think Government is going to peel off russian denial of sharing Technology.
While signing Su-30 deal , IAF don't like to buy them in huge numbers but Government Ordered them in such quantity to help Russia during economy collapse. It's time to pay for it.

The AURA program was most likely a exercise in capability demonstration and not an actual UCAV development program.
It was a case study to examine whether ADA/DRDO/HAL had the capability to develop a UCAV or not.
The AURA program is said to have been completed and the information from the program will be applied to the development of the Ghatak Stealth UCAV.