AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

PD_Solo

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Author needs a friendship request from Ajai Shukla.
 

IndianHawk

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[Here I am posting an article by an American author (Name at the end). The article contains very negative analysis (with very little positive analysis) of Indian capabilities as a fighter jet producer. I shall say that he is mocking. The author has presented same hawkish view on Tejas fighter too under the light-weight component, but I have given the medium part only. Strong heart needed to read. About: Rafale and thereafter AMCA. Are you agreed with his views?]




T H E M E D I U M - W E I G H T C O M P O N E N T



THE RAFALE

Such a conclusion naturally refocuses attention on the Indian government’s prospective

decision in regard to filling out the medium segment of its air arm. The Indian Air Force

(IAF), at least in its recent history, had no medium-weight combatants; its diverse fighter

assets were clumped mostly at the lightweight end, with the Su-30MKI the sole representative

at the heavy end of the spectrum. With the reformulation of the Medium Multirole

Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) requirement—born out of the original effort to expand the

lightweight Mirage 2000 force—the IAF began to review a series of twin-engine fourth generation-

plus aircraft such as the Rafale, the Typhoon, the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, and

the MiG-35 as well as lighter single-engine fourth-generation-plus fighters such as the F-16

and the JAS-39 Gripen. (The F-16 comes in just barely past the medium-weight mark, and

the Gripen definitively subsists as a lightweight combatant even in its heavier NG guise.)

Given the evolving force ratios involving China and Pakistan, the IAF initially sought to

acquire 126 aircraft under the aegis of its MMRCA competition, while holding out hope

for 74 more aircraft later. The resulting purchase would have sufficed to equip close to

ten squadrons with advanced fourth-generation-plus aircraft, whose distinguishing characteristics

include high agility, reduced radar signatures, active electronically scanned array

(AESA) radars, sensor fusion, high-capacity and secure data links, enhanced defensive avionics

suites, and advanced air-to-air and air-to-ground weaponry. A single large acquisition of this kind held the promise of simplifying the IAF’s logistics and maintenance, allowing

the force to focus on a single platform, rather than creating the congeries of aircraft that

exist, for example, in its lightweight segment. With such ambitions, the IAF conducted a

lengthy and detailed evaluation of six candidates before selecting the Rafale, with the Typhoon

as a backup in case the contract with Dassault Aviation could not be concluded for

any reason.

The selection of the Rafale as the winner of the MMRCA competition confirmed the suspicion

of several well-placed Indian observers that the IAF in the end picked the aircraft

it wanted in the first place: a French fighter as the preferred Western counterpart to its

Russian aircraft, given the service’s long and ultimately happy experience with the Mirage

2000.46 Whether this conjecture is in fact true is hard to judge from the outside, but the IAF

did conduct an elaborate contest among the contenders before short-listing its final choices.

Unfortunately for the Indian air arm, however, the competition collapsed because, after

long and frustrating negotiations between the Indian and French governments as well as

between the IAF and Dassault Aviation, the Modi government aborted the original tender

and settled for an off-the-shelf purchase of just 36 aircraft as a consolation prize for Paris,

while declaring its intention to continue searching for an additional 90 aircraft on more

favorable terms.

The Rafale debacle, ultimately, occurred because the aircraft’s extraordinarily high unit and

life-cycle costs made it impossible for the Indian government to follow through on its original

intent to purchase the entire complement of 126 aircraft. But the seeds of the problem

lay in the two-step Indian acquisition procedure itself: requiring the IAF to first choose an

airplane that met its technical standards without any formal information about costs, and

then selecting the lowest-priced competitor—based on costs, technology transfer offers,

and offset proposals—from only among those that survived the first-stage triage. In doing

so, the Indian government and its air arm could neither judge the total expected costs of

their selection against all the other rivals a priori nor assess whether their differences in marginal

price were worth the trade-offs in technology and performance. It is not surprising,

therefore, that when the price data for the Rafale were finally revealed, sticker shock set in

as the total cost proved much larger than the IAF or the Indian government could afford.

Confronted by this fact, the then defense minister, A. K. Antony, apparently tried to revisit

the methodology that resulted in the Rafale’s selection in the first place—after cost negotiations

had already begun. That was the clearest indication of both a flawed procedure and a

political attempt at second-guessing the IAF’s technical judgment. But no exit from the impasse

could be found. Other complications also unhelpfully intervened: Dassault Aviation

balked at plowing back 50 percent of the total costs as direct offsets, assuming the risks of

co-production with Indian public sector partners, and transferring technology at the levels

demanded by India—all requirements stated in the IAF’s original request for proposals.

None of this should have come as a revelation. Information about the Rafale’s high unit

costs was freely available in the trade literature. And common sense at any rate should have

suggested that amortizing the huge development expenditures—running into many billions

of dollars—of a sophisticated fighter such as the Rafale over a very small number of

platforms would have driven up the unit costs tremendously. Because Dassault Aviation is

a relatively small original equipment manufacturer in the global fighter market, the unit

costs of its aircraft are on average much higher than, for example, those of its American

competitors with their larger production runs. Higher unit costs usually imply fewer sales;

fewer sales imply less revenue; and less revenue, in turn, implies a greater unwillingness to

part with the already modest profits by accepting higher offset obligations, assuming greater

product liability, and transferring maximal technology.

The IAF, obviously, should have known all this before the MMRCA competition was initiated.

But its desire for the latest and most aerodynamically agile airplane of known pedigree,

combined with the Indian government’s two-stage procurement procedure, permitted

the service to downselect the two most expensive contestants at a time when cheaper alternatives

would have enabled it to buy multirole fighters that were just as good, while saving

resources to enable the transition to a fifth-generation combat force.

In any event, the IAF unfortunately will soon have to cope with the challenge of integrating

another small contingent of 36 Rafales in what is already an overdiversified fighter

force, one that now includes a medium-weight segment in addition to the lightweight and

heavyweight components acquired previously. Make no mistake: the Rafale is a superb multirole

fighter that is still in the early stages of what will be a long, thirty-year operational life.

Although it lacks an AESA radar and its MICA-series (the French acronym for interception,

combat, and self-defense missile) air-to-air missiles are most capable at shorter ranges

compared with similar U.S. and Chinese weaponry, these limitations will be rectified at some

point. The French Air Force and French Navy, for example, are beginning to field a new AESA

radar, the RBE2, on their Rafales, and it is likely that the Indian aircraft also will be equipped

with a variant of this system.

Mitigating the Rafale’s heavy maintenance burdens will be more challenging, but Dassault

Aviation historically has always come through where spare parts and depot-level support are

concerned, albeit at a high price. The enormous costs of support seem to be preventing the

Indo-French negotiations for the 36 aircraft from coming to closure, and while it is likely that

the impediments will eventually be resolved, nothing will change the fundamental realities

about the Rafale’s high unit and life-cycle costs.

This fact notwithstanding, when the envisaged upgrades are completed, the Rafale, an

already impressive combat aircraft, will become even more imposing in its F3R variant,

thanks to its superb sensor fusion and targeting capabilities, formidable defensive avionics,

highly effective swing-role performance, and reduced radar signatures. Beyond the nagging

doubts about whether Dassault Aviation can quickly deliver the 36 aircraft contracted

because of the limitations in its manufacturing capacity, the Rafale’s biggest handicap obviously

is its horrendous break-the-bank price.

Recent information suggests that the aircraft’s unit costs have been negotiated to around

$220 million, a reduction from the earlier price tag of approximately $300 million that

killed the original MMRCA program, but still high nonetheless. The most authoritative

information available in the Indian press indicates that the total program costs of procuring

36 Rafales will be about $9 billion—close to one-fourth of India’s 2015–2016 defense

budget. If the Modi government’s earlier allocation of $4.7 billion for the aircraft alone is

any indication, the unit flyaway costs of the Rafale would still be remarkably high: about

$131 million per aircraft in comparison to, for example, about $75 million apiece for a U.S.

F/A-18E/F Super Hornet in 2014.55 With support and other costs thrown in, the Rafale

ends up closer to $250 million each.





ALTERNATIVES BEYOND THE RAFALE

Despite these sobering numbers, it would be a blessing if, deus ex machina, the IAF could

somehow lay its hands on 90 more Rafales, because such an addition would mitigate its

problems of a diverse inventory while at the same time increasing its combat capabilities

considerably. Unfortunately because of the costs involved, this option appears unavailing.

And the government of India, at any rate, has cast its net wide, seeking to procure the remaining

90 fighters from among any of the original contestants in the MMRCA competition.

By all accounts, the Indian defense minister seems to believe that all these rival aircraft

are more or less comparable in capability, and hence he is focused on an acquisition that

prioritizes low unit and life-cycle costs, transfer of technology, and above all the Make in

India program. In fact, the cheapest airplanes that can be co-produced in India appear to

be the object of the current search because these twin objectives simultaneously satisfy the

nation’s budgetary constraints and its industrial policy goals.

While the IAF is sympathetic to these objectives, it understandably has other interests as

well: it still seeks the best multirole aircraft that the treasury can afford, but above all it

wants the impending acquisition to support the indigenous development of the Advanced

Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), a stealth fighter that the service hopes will become the

medium-weight mainstay of the IAF beyond 2025.

Satisfying these criteria will take the Indian Ministry of Defense over the terrain already

plowed during the MMRCA competition. The MiG-35 would still be a poor choice because

the IAF is adamant—and for good reason—that it needs a new line of Western equipment

as a technological hedge, given the prevailing dominance of Russian fighters in the

IAF. Furthermore, only Western aircraft can provide the IAF with the advanced counters

required to cope with the Russian platforms, sensors, and weapons now appearing in the air

forces of its adversaries.

The Typhoon would obviously meet this criterion, but its high unit costs place it in the

same unfavorable position as the Rafale. What is equally problematic is that the Typhoon,

although impressive for its acceleration, supersonic maneuverability, and high top speed,

now lags behind the Rafale where new sensors and the diversity of weapons carried are

concerned. This failure to maintain its originally intended schedule of improvements is

partly due to its poor sales record abroad, its divided governmental sponsors and service

customers, and the competition posed by the F-35, which has also been sought by many of

the same European air forces now flying the Typhoon. Finally, the Eurofighter consortium

that makes the Typhoon has no experience in developing fifth-generation stealth aircraft

and, consequently, its value to the IAF’s AMCA program is minimal.

That leaves the Gripen NG, the F-16IN, and the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet as possibilities,

and each has different strengths and weaknesses. The Gripen NG will be an impressive aircraft

when operational, but even when it becomes mature technologically, it would remain

a lightweight rather than medium-weight fighter. This is not necessarily a disadvantage,

because the F-16IN is similar in this respect. The F-16IN is actually two aircraft in one,

depending on its configuration. Without conformal fuel tanks, it remains one of the most

agile air combat aircraft ever built, and its primary sensors and weapons outclass even those

of the Gripen today. It will likely be cheaper than the Gripen, and although the version

offered to India is far superior to that operated by Pakistan, the IAF still has reservations

about acquiring an airplane that is in Islamabad’s inventory. Nonetheless, the manufacturer,

Lockheed Martin, is committed to transferring the entire F-16 production line to India if

the aircraft is selected for procurement. This provision makes the F-16IN extremely attractive

as a project for the Make in India program—an offer that rivals Saab’s in this respect.

Beyond that, the prospect of helping to service the thousands of F-16s still operational

worldwide would instantly make India pivotal to the global aviation supply chain, while

ironically putting it in the odd position of possibly having to support future aircraft sales

to its rival, Pakistan.

Boeing’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, in contrast to the Gripen NG and the F-16IN, is a twinengine,

medium-weight aircraft and a formidable strike fighter whose greatest strengths lie in the

surface attack and beyond-visual-range air-to-air missions. Because the Super Hornet

will continue to equip the U.S. Navy’s carrier air wings until at least 2035, it is unlikely

that Boeing’s co-production offers for this aircraft would match those of Lockheed Martin’s

F-16IN for reasons relating to both corporate strategy and U.S. governmental restrictions.

Even so, any manufacturing related to the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet in India would create

new opportunities to build a network of secondary and tertiary suppliers, thus increasing

India’s integration into the international aerospace industry while simultaneously enlarging

its industrial base. The fact that the Super Hornet’s costs are likely to be comparable to the

Gripen NG should only make it more attractive to India’s Defense Ministry from a financial

point of view. And, finally, selecting the Super Hornet offers a further benefit: it opens the

door to the Indian Navy acquiring and operating the same aircraft on its next-generation

large-deck aircraft carriers.

All three aircraft, then, would satisfy India’s cost constraints; all three are highly capable

multirole fighters; all would surpass the IAF’s expectations for advanced technology to

counter its rivals; all will continue to enjoy growth potential, at least where their avionics

and weapons complements are concerned; and all three can also be manufactured in India,

with Saab and Lockheed Martin likely being more flexible than Boeing on this score. Only

the two U.S. primes, however, have a clear edge where the rapid production of the fighters

is concerned—an issue that should be of importance to the IAF but is perhaps not of equal

urgency to the government of India.60 As far as program costs and operational effectiveness

are concerned, therefore, any of these three fighters would fit the bill, though if the Gripen

NG is selected, the Indian government would in effect be jettisoning the medium-weight

component of its air force in favor of a functional mix of mainly light and heavy aircraft.





TECHNOLOGY TRANSFER AND THE AMCA PROGRAM

Irrespective of the finalist chosen, then, the big imponderable remains technology transfer.

If the Indian government and the IAF expect that co-production in India will automatically

translate into a “full” divestiture of critical technologies in materials, sensors, weaponry, or

software code—as opposed to production line capacities—they are likely to be disappointed.

The same goes for expectations of assistance in regard to stealth technology. Of the three

original equipment manufacturers under consideration, Lockheed Martin, having been the

prime contractor for both the F-22 and the F-35, possesses the deepest experience where

comprehensive fifth-generation fighter aircraft design is concerned. Boeing also plays in

this game, as demonstrated by its collaboration with Lockheed Martin on the F-22 and its

experience in designing Joint Strike Fighter prototypes. Saab comes in a poor third where

stealth is concerned: although the Gripen NG will have extensive radar cross-section reduction

treatments, no European manufacturer has the capacity to design a sophisticated fifthgeneration

fighter with organic stealth capabilities.

If it is therefore assumed that the Lockheed Martin proposal has an edge at least where

future support for the IAF’s AMCA program is concerned, Indian decisionmakers should

think again. Despite Lockheed Martin’s ample experience in designing and manufacturing

stealth fighters, this expertise is tightly controlled by the U.S. government. Any assistance

from an American company for the AMCA effort will therefore have to be negotiated subsequently

by the two governments, and the record thus far has not been promising.

The South Korean KF-X program is a great case in point: The Republic of Korea, a close

ally of the United States, set out in 2002 to build its own stealth fighter, similar to what

India proposes to do through its AMCA program. Lockheed Martin was expected to support

this endeavor as part of a package deal that involved the South Korean purchase of 40

F-35 Lightning stealth fighters. Although the company agreed to provide assistance within

the limits of its commercial interests, the U.S. government has refused to transfer four critical

technologies—the AESA radar, electronic-warfare systems, infrared search and tracking

capabilities, and targeting pods. And it is still unclear whether Washington will permit

integration of the 21 other technologies approved for transfer with the South Korean, European,

or Israeli alternatives now being considered.

If it is therefore assumed that the Lockheed Martin proposal has an edge at least where

future support for the IAF’s AMCA program is concerned, Indian decisionmakers should

think again. Despite Lockheed Martin’s ample experience in designing and manufacturing

stealth fighters, this expertise is tightly controlled by the U.S. government. Any assistance

from an American company for the AMCA effort will therefore have to be negotiated subsequently

by the two governments, and the record thus far has not been promising.

The South Korean KF-X program is a great case in point: The Republic of Korea, a close

ally of the United States, set out in 2002 to build its own stealth fighter, similar to what

India proposes to do through its AMCA program. Lockheed Martin was expected to support

this endeavor as part of a package deal that involved the South Korean purchase of 40

F-35 Lightning stealth fighters. Although the company agreed to provide assistance within

the limits of its commercial interests, the U.S. government has refused to transfer four critical

technologies—the AESA radar, electronic-warfare systems, infrared search and tracking

capabilities, and targeting pods. And it is still unclear whether Washington will permit

integration of the 21 other technologies approved for transfer with the South Korean, European,

or Israeli alternatives now being considered.62

The moral of the story should be clear: stealth technology remains among the most tightly

controlled American capabilities because of both the clear combat edge it provides and the

huge U.S. lead in this area. Any expectation that the AMCA program would therefore be

able to access American expertise merely because India purchased the F-16IN earlier would

prove to be unfounded. This does not constitute an argument against the purchase of the F-

16IN, which is a formidable combat aircraft available at a great price and that would make

India a significant player in the international aviation market. But it does require the IAF,

and the Indian government more generally, to think carefully about the character of the

AMCA program—because the alternatives here are fraught.

Clearly, the IAF needs a stealthy fifth-generation follow-on fighter if it is to cope successfully

with the Chinese J-20 and J-31, at least one of which is poised to enter the People’s

Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) early in the next decade. The Indian effort at cooperating

with Russia to develop a heavy stealth platform, the PAK-FA (Perspektivny Aviatsionny

Kompleks Frontovoy Aviatsii), is in trouble and hence the need for the AMCA, a

medium-weight alternative, becomes more urgent. The AMCA would have been essential

even if the PAK-FA program had proceeded swimmingly because the steady shift toward

fifth-generation combatants implies that the IAF would eventually need stealth fighters in

both weight classes. The imperative of not simply having a large enough air force but, more

important, possessing an air arm with the largest proportion of sophisticated aircraft makes

the case for a second stealthy fighter more compelling. But the Russian experience thus far

should reinforce the point that all foreign manufacturers, not just American, would be very

loath to part with their stealth technologies, at least for the foreseeable future and not until

more revolutionary cloaking capabilities, such as free space plasma, become fully mature.

Although India has boldly displayed models of a future AMCA design that includes a highly

shaped fuselage and planform, the country’s capacity to build a fifth-generation fighter

indigenously from scratch is actually nonexistent. India has, no doubt, been developing

bits and pieces of stealth-related technology, pursuing research in areas such as low probability

of intercept radars, radar absorbent coatings, canopy treatments, conformal antennas,

and engine masking, but Indian aircraft designers are still not capable of producing those

organic stealth designs that integrate highly shaped airframes, enclosed engines, embedded

sensors, internal weapons, and low-emission radars in a unified package. India’s choices,

then, consist of attempting to develop such capabilities domestically, with foreign assistance

whenever possible, or simply purchasing complete stealth fighters from any willing sellers.

Russia has already agreed to sell the PAK-FA to India, and the United States is open to entertaining

Indian requests for the F-35, but neither country is likely to help India to develop

indigenous stealth technologies—any protestations to the contrary notwithstanding—for

understandable national security reasons.

Consequently, the IAF is faced with the choice of accepting an indigenous product that is

likely to be inferior in combat capability or purchasing a cutting-edge stealth fighter that

will advantage it in conflict but will provide few benefits in terms of technology transfer and

could come with significant technology security protection obligations. If India chose the

latter route, the U.S. F-35 would be a perfect fit for the AMCA requirement: the unit costs

of the aircraft have already come down to somewhere in the region of $100 million apiece,

rivaling the Rafale, and the U.S. Air Force variant in the eighth low-rate initial production

lot is targeted at $95 million each. The F-35’s stealth, sensors, and weapons are unmatched

in the air-to-ground role for which it is optimized, and its extremely low frontal signatures

give it immense advantages in the air-to-air role as well. Finally, the aircraft’s overall worth

seems to be confirmed by the international aviation market, since F-35s are expected to

constitute more than 60 percent of all the new Western combat aircraft sold during 2016–

2020—a trend that is likely to persist as the aircraft is further upgraded over time.

None of this may prove to be sufficiently persuasive to the IAF or to the government of India,

given their deep-rooted desire for an indigenously produced follow-on medium-weight

stealth fighter. But that only deepens the old dilemma confronting the air service: how does

it balance the national (and sometimes its own) demand for self-sufficiency with its imperative

for operational superiority over its adversaries? If the inclination to produce a stealthy

AMCA indigenously wins out, India would enjoy some technology gains overall, but the

end product is likely to resemble a Tejas redux.

Successfully building a stealth fighter requires an enormous depth of research and design

expertise—not to mention excellence—in diverse areas, such as materials, electronics, and

engine technology. It also entails possessing deep experience in systems integration, a capability

developed only though the clear and uninterrupted progression of ever more complex

aircraft production programs, in addition to nurturing highly specialized capabilities in the

specific technology areas required to produce a platform that synergizes very low observable

stealth with advanced fighter performance. And it imposes extraordinary demands on

manufacturing capability because stealth aircraft are fabricated to incredibly tight tolerances

in the face of finicky materials and difficult geometries, not to mention the high maintenance

demands that inevitably follow.

India’s record on all these counts is not impressive—and that is putting it charitably. Consequently,

the expectations entertained in the Indian defense research and development

establishment about its ability to produce not simply a stealth combatant but one that can

overwhelm comparable adversaries in combat are likely to fall terribly short, with disastrous

consequences for the air force. If, after all the effort and investment, India finally manages

to produce indigenously nothing more than an expensive but substandard stealth fighter,

the national gains in technology progression will not have been worth the cost in potential losses

of lives and material in combat. Given these realities, the Indian government ought to consider

carefully the strategy underlying its AMCA program. It should start by honestly assessing what

any foreign partnership might provide in support of its goal of building an advanced stealthy platform.

Then it must consider whether the IAF—and the nation at large—is better served by the

outright purchase of a capable combatant or yet another Sisyphean effort at producing an

anemic simulacrum at home.

Pretending that the advent of counterstealth capabilities would free the Indian government

from making a choice here is not tenable either. For starters, it is simply not clear whether the

current efforts at detecting stealth aircraft will succeed. Even if they only progress, it implies that

the competition between stealth aircraft and counterstealth capabilities will further intensify,

leaving nonstealthy combat aircraft at a distinct disadvantage when facing stealthy

adversaries. Consequently, the IAF will have to move toward acquiring stealth fighters at some

point—especially as the Chinese J-20 begins to enter the PLAAF in substantial numbers—with the

only question being whether India acquires superior counterparts from a foreign source or settles

for inferior combatants developed indigenously.

Author: Ashley J. Tellis

Source Article: TROUBLES, THEY COME IN BATTALIONS

Subject/About: The Manifold Travails of the Indian Air Force

© 2016 Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.
Author is right about two things 1 we lack in tech to produce a top class 5th gen fighter but he is underestimating our capacity to learn faster and adopt. Lca lessons will be learned surely. Technologies like AESA , IRST we can adopt them.
2 he is right both Russian and American might shy away from sharing stealth tech expertise but we have better chances with Russia any given day. F35 is at best controversial at worst it's a disaster.
He is also overestimating Chinese capacity ,they don't have a stealth engine. And there weaponry remains sub par.
In technology what we truly need from America is stealth and engine tech and chances of getting them are pretty slim. Not to mention conditions and spares drama of US govt. With PAKFA we will also get some degree of tech transfer we can push Russians for more (given status of their economy) but at the end we need to invest heavily in domestic AMCA that is only way to sustain a very costly future. Even if IAF sqdn is not up to numbers we must push funds for indigenous RnD.
 

Superdefender

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PAK-FA

  • Empty weight: 18,000 kg (39,680 lb)
  • Loaded weight: 25,000 kg (55,115 lb) typical mission weight, 29,270 kg (64,530 lb) at full load
  • Max. takeoff weight: 35,000 kg (77,160 lb)
that means AMCA has more "Max weight carrying capacity" than Pak-fa .?? really ??............
IAF - Inventory Diversity.png


Source: Jamie Hunter, Jane’s All the World’s Aircraft: In Service, 2015-2016, 21st ed. (Surrey: IHS Jane’s, 2015); and Paul Jackson
Fraes, Jane’s All the World’s Aircraft: Development & Production, 2015-2016, 104th ed. (Surrey: IHS Jane’s, 2015).
 

Superdefender

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First flight not before 2025...and it will face same situation LCA had....delayed

Sent from my ASUS_Z00LD using Tapatalk
IAF Squadrons.png

1MiG-21 Bisons will be the last to retire, but they will be obsolete long before their airframe hours run out
2The oldest Jaguars will have to be retired between 2020 and 2025, unless a comprehensive upgrade, overhaul and life-extension programme is
executed soon
3With a production licence already in place, additional Su-30MKIs may yet be ordered
4LCA projections contingent upon the type attaining full operational capability and series production in meaningful volumes
5Although it is unlikely that a deal for 36 Rafale will prove affordable, this projection remains in place based on public pronouncements by various
government figures
6Based on the co-development or co-production of the aircraft being agreed to within a reasonable time frame
7Assuming a trouble-free development programme and entry into service for the AMCA

Source Article: Indian Air Power
Authors: Abhijit Iyer- Mitra & Angad Singh
© 2016 by Observer Research Foundation
 

tejas warrior

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AmoghaVarsha

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What I wanted to say was that Tejas can intercept F-16 incase MKI was busy in any other task. By the way accoding to "Asia Times", SU-30MKI are outdated and inferior & Pak F-16 are superior to them!!! Can you believe their intellectual level?
Can you post link to that asia times?
 

Indx TechStyle

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@Superdefender @abingdonboy @Kunal Biswas @pmaitra @sayareakd
Seems that AMCA project has been shelved.
The Tejas Mark1-A is a 4.5 generation aircraft the Indian government has said will not lead to the development of an indigenous fifth generation aircraft.
https://m.sputniknews.com/asia/20161004/1045996885/india-jet-construction.html
Though I'm not happy over this, I'm still all in for the decision because I myself felt that with just limited success in 4th and 4.5 gen plane, we will end up making an obsolete 5G fighter with serious anomalies.
USA, Russia and PRC all had developed and inducted first class 4th and 4.5 generation fighters for different roles, from air superiority to interceptors and fighter bombers. Specially, I would love to see an Indian counterpart of Su30 or Su 35 and F-18.
If we may start working on project after expertizing basic technologies, we can develop a first class fifth generation fighter in a decade.
The only thing frustrates me that they are just planning 80 Tejas Mk1A by 2027.
 

Indx TechStyle

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Seems that AMCA project has been shelved.

https://m.sputniknews.com/asia/20161004/1045996885/india-jet-construction.html
Though I'm not happy over this, I'm still all in for the decision because I myself felt that with just limited success in 4th and 4.5 gen plane, we will end up making an obsolete 5G fighter with serious anomalies.
USA, Russia and PRC all had developed and inducted first class 4th and 4.5 generation fighters for different roles, from air superiority to interceptors and fighter bombers. Specially, I would love to see an Indian counterpart of Su30 or Su 35 and F-18.
If we may start working on project after expertizing basic technologies, we can develop a first class fifth generation fighter in a decade.
The only thing frustrates me that they are just planning 80 Tejas Mk1A by 2027.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...-combat-aircraft-hal.36/page-103#post-1213197
 

Anupu

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@Superdefender @abingdonboy @Kunal Biswas @pmaitra @sayareakd
Seems that AMCA project has been shelved.

https://m.sputniknews.com/asia/20161004/1045996885/india-jet-construction.html
Though I'm not happy over this, I'm still all in for the decision because I myself felt that with just limited success in 4th and 4.5 gen plane, we will end up making an obsolete 5G fighter with serious anomalies.
USA, Russia and PRC all had developed and inducted first class 4th and 4.5 generation fighters for different roles, from air superiority to interceptors and fighter bombers. Specially, I would love to see an Indian counterpart of Su30 or Su 35 and F-18.
If we may start working on project after expertizing basic technologies, we can develop a first class fifth generation fighter in a decade.
The only thing frustrates me that they are just planning 80 Tejas Mk1A by 2027.
Confusion for sure, Parrikar never mentioned anything about AMCA. Anyways AMCA is still far away, but they need to get there act together.
 

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Confusion for sure, Parrikar never mentioned anything about AMCA. Anyways AMCA is still far away, but they need to get there act together.
AMCA is India's only known program to a develop a fifth generation fighter. He clarified that India won't jump in such a venture without making proper 4.5 gen fighters.
Instead, I heard that civil airliner projects like Saras and RTA will be revived which is a good step and required for nourishing industries. All major air powers have nourished their aircraft industries, we too must pour money for drawing something reasonable from it.
 

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Slow production rate for lca , no information on Amca and now speculation of shelving. :crying:

Amca should go on no matter what even if it comes a decade letter than j31 it could incorporate better radar senser and suite .
Giving up would mean stalling entire capacity expansion. China would run rings around us if we remain captive of foreign birds:frusty:
 

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Slow production rate for lca , no information on Amca and now speculation of shelving. :crying:

Amca should go on no matter what even if it comes a decade letter than j31 it could incorporate better radar senser and suite .
Giving up would mean stalling entire capacity expansion. China would run rings around us if we remain captive of foreign birds:frusty:
I'm again telling you guys, without making a first class 4th gen fighter like F-18 or Su30, it was already impossible to make AMCA. Don't need to cry.
 

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I was more or less crying over our indecisiveness. Anyway we can have tot for f18 and simultaneously work on 5th gen technologies.
 

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I'm again telling you guys, without making a first class 4th gen fighter like F-18 or Su30, it was already impossible to make AMCA. Don't need to cry.
I am really not happy about it. AMCA is a must. And why are they planning production of 1A in 2021? It should start from say 2019. After success of 1A, then jump to AMCA (shelving it is not a good idea).
 

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But we need to develop technologies simultaneously. Engine tech , AESA radar , advanced EW suite ,IRST and data fusion.
What we truly need is capacity expansion. We need more highly qualified engineers / scientist, even foreigners should be hired for different projects . And we need massive cash infusion at ones to raise standard of work ,tools , training and state of the art facilities.
If we are still importing 40% of stuff required for aviation, simultaneous development is not possible.
Plus we lag in so many technologies everything can't be done simultaneously.

There's no point in involving foreigners in AMCA project. Otherwise we have FGFA. AMCA must go indigenous instead of just getting tag og made in India.

For other aerospace powers, they nourished their aircraft industries for years before venturing in such projects. But UPA left a crises behind.
Thankfully, new government is reviving civil aircraft projects and for basic avionics what is actually needed for developing a decebt aircraft. Once got in a proper row, we will easily design and develop an FG Combat Machine in proper time frame.
 

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I am really not happy about it. AMCA is a must. And why are they planning production of 1A in 2021? It should start from say 2019. After success of 1A, then jump to AMCA (shelving it is not a good idea).
What tejas 1A production by 2019..seriously..with HAL never gone happen
 

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I am really not happy about it. AMCA is a must. And why are they planning production of 1A in 2021? It should start from say 2019. After success of 1A, then jump to AMCA (shelving it is not a good idea).
1A is not a complete success yet.
That's the reason.
I was more or less crying over our indecisiveness. Anyway we can have tot for f18 and simultaneously work on 5th gen technologies.
Working on 4th and 5th generation machines simultaneously?:crazy:
On which platform you will get 5th gen?:pound:
 

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Even south korean's developing their KAI KF-X faster...than expected
Recently they made a milestone on developing AESA radar for their fifth generation fighter...
 

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Even south korean's developing their KAI KF-X faster...than expected
Recently they made a milestone on developing AESA radar for their fifth generation fighter...
They have assistance of Lockheed Martin.
We have FGFA with a similar joint venture.
 

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If we are still importing 40% of stuff required for aviation, simultaneous development is not possible.
Plus we lag in so many technologies everything can't be done simultaneously.

There's no point in involving foreigners in AMCA project. Otherwise we have FGFA. AMCA must go indigenous instead of just getting tag og made in India.

For other aerospace powers, they nourished their aircraft industries for years before venturing in such projects. But UPA left a crises behind.
Thankfully, new government is reviving civil aircraft projects and for basic avionics what is actually needed for developing a decebt aircraft. Once got in a proper row, we will easily design and develop an FG Combat Machine in proper time frame.
At this stage we can't go 100% indigenous. If we can develop a proper engine that would be a major leap. Look at gripen it's even more global in components yet they are exporting it to Brazil which has decent aviation base. o_O
There is nothing wrong in poaching few highly qualified engineers or consultant. We hire consultancies anyway but they shortcharge us . Individuals are more cooperative.
Regarding FGFA we missed the development bus it is more and more looking like a license production scenario.
And if can develop a better radar with let's say Israel why the hell not. We need to increase degree of indigenization gradually 60% to 70%to 90%.
It's always better than importing 100%:india:
 

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