Alternatives to Dassault Rafale

[grampiguy]

Buy Russian junk first then spend more money in maintaining and upgrading it with western components bravo and 3 cheers for IAF think tank , hope sanity prevails and rafale deal comes through.

Some of the prominent Russian products purchased by India are Sukhoi Su-30MKI, MiG-29K, Brahmos, Smerch MRLS, T-90, INS Talwar etc. It would be really hard to justify anyone of these being junk. So a better care is needed before terming them in derogatory ways.

In fact, gradually Rafale is inching towards being in the obsolete category. Especially, when Chinese hackers have stolen Radar, Engine Schematics and stealth technology from F-35 JSF which are bound to appear in Chinese J-20 and J-31. Pretty soon, these improved features will become visible in Chinese stealth fighters and bring a shock to all those who got a jolt from the appearance of EOTS in J-20 last year. When the age of stealth dawns, India cannot be caught with its pants down and neck deep in Rafale (a 4+ generation) aircraft acquisition for DPSA and low level attack.

China stole plans for a new fighter plane, spy documents have revealed - Sydney Morning Herald

 

[sgarg]

One must not forget MIG-21 crashes , HAL or Russian couldn't able to make R-25 engines safer since late 80s, The problems are known and no solution ..

By saying that HAL can improve some licensed Russian engine, Will be the same mistake we did in past and repeating it , We need to learn from past experience ..

==========

If defense minster said that we can do with upgraded SU-30MKIs, We are expecting these to very end ..

We cannot do anything better with AL-31 as they are right now, IAF maintenance crew are perhaps more efficient than their flying counterparts ..

The rest is explained in my earlier post #131 ..

When did HAL try to improve on licensed tech? It is only Chinese who have done this.

It is perfectly alright from engineering point of view to take a fully functional product and build it with longer lasting materials.

Examples would be better alloys (lower thermal stress, lower creep), better gaskets, better precision machining etc.)

A lot can be done to make a product better.

HAL culture is not suitable for innovation. In general, Indians are bad in innovation.

This is why Suzuki cars sell much better than Tata, while both use technologies which are at par.

 

[sgarg]

IAF has made bad choices in localization of products. In fact the entire government machinery continue to make bad choices by going to under-equipped small and medium scale sector for critical spares. We need large scale companies for producing parts in aviation. Aviation is very different from cars in one key aspect - it needs very high quality materials and processes. Aviation employs the best people and machines due to high stresses an airplane experiences in flight, which requires every component to be made with precision.

 

[aero_sp]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

India's rejection of Rafale in favor of Su-30 might be justified - experts

Experts believe that India's rejection of the French Rafale fighter in favor of the Russian Su-30MKI is advantageous for India in every way.
RIA Novosti
January 13, 2015
It is possible that India's acquisition of the Su-30MKI fighter plane instead of the French Rafale is advantageous to the country's air force in terms of cost, tactical and technical characteristics of the plane and a series of other reasons, says the official representative of the Center for Analysis of World Arms Trade (CAWAT).
Previously The New Economic Times announced that the Ministry of Defense might refuse to purchase the French Rafale fighter and buy the Russian Su-30MKI instead.
"India's rejection of the French Rafale fighter in favor of the Russian Su-30MKI is advantageous for India in every way: according to its tactical and technical specifications the Russian plane is significantly superior to the French equivalent. Furthermore, for India's air force the pricing is extremely important, and the increase of the initial price to almost double what was in the contract just doesn't reflect the existing economic reality ", said a CAWAT representative.
Related:

Why India needs to rethink the Rafale deal
Mistral row: France risks losing Rafale contract in India
Is India aiming to boost the Rafale's firepower with Russian missiles?
With the MiG-29 on steroids, who needs the Rafale
He highlighted that India already had the conditions necessary for servicing the Su-30MKI and the purchase of the new batch of Russian fighters would only strengthen Russian-Indian military and technical cooperation: "The logistical supply chain for maintaining the Su-30MKI has already been established for the aircraft previously supplied by Russia and assembled in India. Furthermore, this aircraft is a 4++ generation fighter — it will ensure that the Indian air force is ready to accept the fifth generation fighters (FGFA)".
According to the CAWAT representative, another reason for India's rejection of the Rafale might be the French freeze on the delivery of the Mistral helicopter carrier to Russia.
"The delay and possible refusal of France to deliver the Mistral to Russia creates the doubt that this country is a reliable partner for military and technical cooperation. It cannot be excluded that Paris for one political reason or another will not halt the execution of the contract on the Rafale delivery. Therefore the possible change of focus by India to the Su-30MKI will be a better choice for the country's air force," he highlighted.

http://in.rbth.com/economics/2015/0...or_of_su-30_might_be_justified_-_e_40801.html

 

[sorcerer]

Related Read

Russia helps strengthening India's military potential

Indian officers will start undergoing training at Russian military academies. The General Staffs of India and Russia will promote the mechanism of mutual consultations. The number of joint drills of the armed forces of the two countries will increase. These are the key agreements reached during the visit to India of Russian Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu.

In the military technical cooperation area, Russia and India agreed to fast-track joint development and production of the fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) project. Work on the development of a multi-functional transport plane and the creation of a supersonic mini BrahMos missile will be continued. India will start producing the Ka-226T multi role helicopters.

The supply of the Russian Su-30 fighter jets to India will be increased. According to Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar, Russian planes will replace French Rafale jets, if the contract to buy French aircraft is jeopardized. France, which won a contract to supply the Rafale jets in 2012, has failed to complete the signing of the relevant contract. India is dissatisfied over the fact that France has doubled the price of the plane after the tender. France also refused to give a guarantee to aircrafts, which under the contract will be assembled in India, says editor-in-chief of the "Arsenal" magazine Victor Murakhovsky.


"Not all equipment and systems on board the French planes are French developments. Rafale is a result of cooperation between various western enterprises. It also has elements supplied by the U.S. Consequently, although Dassault is the main producer, it cannot guarantee the supply of systems for the production of which it does not bear responsibility," Murakhovsky said.

The possibility of replacing French planes with Russian fighter jets is determined not only by the superiority in their flying and combat characteristics, says Victor Murakhovsky.

"The Su-30MKI is the basic plane in India's combat aviation. This is a modification of a Russian fighter jet which has been updated to meet India's demands. Some of them were manufactured in Russia, while others were assembled in India. In short, Indian enterprises participate in making these planes. In case of Rafale, India will not get such preferences," Murakhovsky said.


Parity-based partnership relations are the distinctive feature in Russian-Indian cooperation. Many independent analysts describe these relations as unprecedented in world practice. Russia had stood by India when the U.S. and its allies had imposed sanctions for its nuclear and missile programs, said former Indian Army brigadier Gurmeet Kanwal. "India's acquisition of weapons and defence equipment from Russia has been the most enduring part of the India-Russia strategic partnership," Kanwal said. "Defence ties with Moscow will remain intact because Russia offers high-technology weapon co-production projects to India," added Bhim Singh, retired Indian Air Force wing commander.

India has invited Russian armament companies to join in the 'Make in India' plan.

Russia takes part in 200 joint projects and will remain to be the largest weapons supplier to India in the near future.
Russia helps strengthening India's military potential - News - Society - Russian Radio

 

[Lone Ranger]

Related Read

Russia helps strengthening India's military potential

Indian officers will start undergoing training at Russian military academies. The General Staffs of India and Russia will promote the mechanism of mutual consultations. The number of joint drills of the armed forces of the two countries will increase. These are the key agreements reached during the visit to India of Russian Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu.

In the military technical cooperation area, Russia and India agreed to fast-track joint development and production of the fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) project. Work on the development of a multi-functional transport plane and the creation of a supersonic mini BrahMos missile will be continued. India will start producing the Ka-226T multi role helicopters.

The supply of the Russian Su-30 fighter jets to India will be increased. According to Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar, Russian planes will replace French Rafale jets, if the contract to buy French aircraft is jeopardized. France, which won a contract to supply the Rafale jets in 2012, has failed to complete the signing of the relevant contract. India is dissatisfied over the fact that France has doubled the price of the plane after the tender. France also refused to give a guarantee to aircrafts, which under the contract will be assembled in India, says editor-in-chief of the "Arsenal" magazine Victor Murakhovsky.


"Not all equipment and systems on board the French planes are French developments. Rafale is a result of cooperation between various western enterprises. It also has elements supplied by the U.S. Consequently, although Dassault is the main producer, it cannot guarantee the supply of systems for the production of which it does not bear responsibility," Murakhovsky said.

The possibility of replacing French planes with Russian fighter jets is determined not only by the superiority in their flying and combat characteristics, says Victor Murakhovsky.

"The Su-30MKI is the basic plane in India's combat aviation. This is a modification of a Russian fighter jet which has been updated to meet India's demands. Some of them were manufactured in Russia, while others were assembled in India. In short, Indian enterprises participate in making these planes. In case of Rafale, India will not get such preferences," Murakhovsky said.


Parity-based partnership relations are the distinctive feature in Russian-Indian cooperation. Many independent analysts describe these relations as unprecedented in world practice. Russia had stood by India when the U.S. and its allies had imposed sanctions for its nuclear and missile programs, said former Indian Army brigadier Gurmeet Kanwal. "India's acquisition of weapons and defence equipment from Russia has been the most enduring part of the India-Russia strategic partnership," Kanwal said. "Defence ties with Moscow will remain intact because Russia offers high-technology weapon co-production projects to India," added Bhim Singh, retired Indian Air Force wing commander.

India has invited Russian armament companies to join in the 'Make in India' plan.

Russia takes part in 200 joint projects and will remain to be the largest weapons supplier to India in the near future.
Russia helps strengthening India's military potential - News - Society - Russian Radio

Bad idea to depend heavily on Russians for air force , other alternatives to Rafale should be explored or the deal should be signed no matter what. Su30 mki cant do multi role ops as effectively as rafale. With few number of strike aircraft and handful of mirage2k available other multirole platforms needed and rafale presents excellent one to counter Chinese and Pakistan airforce bvr capabilities and perform strike ops as well.

 

[smestarz]

Bad idea to depend heavily on Russians for air force , other alternatives to Rafale should be explored or the deal should be signed no matter what. Su30 mki cant do multi role ops as effectively as rafale. With few number of strike aircraft and handful of mirage2k available other multirole platforms needed and rafale presents excellent one to counter Chinese and Pakistan airforce bvr capabilities and perform strike ops as well.

This is a matter of understanding the plane. Who says that Su-30 MKI cannot do multiple ops effectively? Actually this very thing stems from the thinking of IAF. IAF was never a progressive air force. During the 70s etc we had MiG-21 which was point defence fighter, we had MiG-27 to handle other roles like strike and air superiority. We did not really have a plane for air superirority, that was never in our air force doctrine. The doctrine was that the IAF should have air superiority over the contested area and thus MiG-21 sufficed. We ordered MiG-29 well before Rafale was available, what was MiG-29 purchased for? Only air superiority role. Mirage 2000 was there for strike and for nuclear delivery role, remember the Mirage 2000 that India had was just armed with guns, we had not purchased any missiles.

Now in the late 90s due to higher cost of equipment etc, armed forces in general and air force in particular started to look for an MRCA. F-16 was one of the purpose designed MRCA able to fulfill both air superiority and strike role. Swedish SAAB Viggen had two versions An air superiority and strike versions. But then the aircrafts then were affordable, but then in late 90s the forces started to want a plane that can have multi roles for a plane. French wanted a plane that they can use off their carrier and hence more of strike and less of air superiority, and hence they went for a plane that could handle both roles simultaneously. Where as other countries depended more on one plane for dedicated air superiority and another for Interdiction and strike. Now many planes are being developed for different roles and for most it involves avionics and software upgrades to able to handle different roles.

Su-30 MKI evolved from Flanker family and it was initially air superiority/air dominance, but then now there are upgrades for it that makes it capable to handle A2A and A2G simultaneously. Even MiG-29K the naval mig 29 is able to handle both A2G and A2A roles. Brahmos is A2G missile and why then is it being put on Su-30 MKI? Would Su-30 MKI still be called air superiority plane even if it uses Brahmos?

 

[Hari Sud]

Can an expert keyboard warrior, talk a bit more on upgrading the the current MIG-29 now on upgrade to make it more and more lethal that it becomes a MIG-29 on steroids.

That together with LCA-2, SU 30 MKKI, and MIG-29 on steroids is more than a match for $20 billion deal of Rafale. The former option will be far cheaper. On top if it, India will know more of high end fighter design with learning process continued with LCA-2 design and development.

 

[smestarz]

Can an expert keyboard warrior, talk a bit more on upgrading the the current MIG-29 now on upgrade to make it more and more lethal that it becomes a MIG-29 on steroids.

That together with LCA-2, SU 30 MKKI, and MIG-29 on steroids is more than a match for $20 billion deal of Rafale. The former option will be far cheaper. On top if it, India will know more of high end fighter design with learning process continued with LCA-2 design and development.

Rafale is one of the last attempt my the French to make money from a product that no one else purchased or there is possibility of purchasing
BTW Egypt is purchasing French Rafale and FREMM because the military govt are hoping from French support for ruling for some more time.

 

[grampiguy]

Rafale is one of the last attempt my the French to make money from a product that no one else purchased or there is possibility of purchasing
BTW Egypt is purchasing French Rafale and FREMM because the military govt are hoping from French support for ruling for some more time.

Egyptian Rafale purchase is quite strange. In this deal, Egypt is trying to borrow money from French banks with French government's guarantee for the loan to buy frigates and Rafale aircraft. So in a way, given the status of Egypt's economy, French government is actually investing that money into French mil-ind complex to keep it alive.

Nonetheless, French are claiming it as their first export, which is a funny claim, no doubt.

 

[smestarz]

Egyptian Rafale purchase is quite strange. In this deal, Egypt is trying to borrow money from French banks with French government's guarantee for the loan to buy frigates and Rafale aircraft. So in a way, given the status of Egypt's economy, French government is actually investing that money into French mil-ind complex to keep it alive.

Nonetheless, French are claiming it as their first export, which is a funny claim, no doubt.

When you compare the Eurocanard, Eurofighter always had the important SAY as they had at least 2 export customers Saudi Arabia and Austria. The French on the other hand claimed superiority in Performance in Switzerland, India and some other places but they were simply not selected.
Dassault has no pressure as it can produce 11 planes per year, but it is the AdlA which is finding it difficult to buy these aircrafts due to costs.
Thus if somehow they can convince Egypt to buy, it is some less pressure on French Govt. The French claim that everything is fine but then when as you say the French banks give loans to Egypt to buy French planes and these loans are guaranteed by France, in a way does sound desperate. But then an Export Sale is Export sale.

 

[jaciunite2]

Why dont they just simply buy mig-35
It can do whatever rafale can do.
It is also a middle class fighter.
And most important thing is that it has an AESA Radar which rafale does not have.

 

[SajeevJino]

Why dont they just simply buy mig-35
It can do whatever rafale can do.
It is also a middle class fighter.
And most important thing is that it has an AESA Radar which rafale does not have.

oh that a Great Information, Please write the AESA info to the IAF. might be your work can save our IAF

 

[jaciunite2]

oh that a Great Information, Please write the AESA info to the IAF. might be your work can save our IAF

Sure man i will if i can

 

[jaciunite2]

oh that a Great Information, Please write the AESA info to the IAF. might be your work can save our IAF

The new featurus of mig-35 Are The Phazotron Zhuk-AE active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, the RD-33MK engines and the newly designed Optical Locator System, OLS-35.
The radar uses 680 4-channel transceiver modules with a power output of 5 watts per channel. The radar is stated to provide a detection range of 130 km for a head on target with up to 30 targets tracked and 6 of those engaged at any one time. As an AESA the radar is liquid cooled, with each transceiver capable of being switched off to prevent damage from overheating and switched on again when cooled. Two variants of the Zhuk-A exist: the FGA-29, and the follow on FGA-35 which will boast an improved detection range of 200 km with 60 targets tracked, the radar will also support a maximum mapping resolution of 1x1m in air-to-surface mode. The FGA-35 will feature a 700 mm antenna with an increased number of transmit and receive modules to between 1000-1,100, a 20 degree incline and a peak power of 6 kW.

 

[MANT!]

What about a Brazilian built SAAB Gripen NG. Cheaper to purchase, operate and upgrade than the Rafale with performance that is stellar..

darn it, still not allowed to post a link..maybe later..

 

[SajeevJino]

The new featurus of mig-35 Are The Phazotron Zhuk-AE active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, the RD-33MK engines and the newly designed Optical Locator System, OLS-35.
The radar uses 680 4-channel transceiver modules with a power output of 5 watts per channel. The radar is stated to provide a detection range of 130 km for a head on target with up to 30 targets tracked and 6 of those engaged at any one time. As an AESA the radar is liquid cooled, with each transceiver capable of being switched off to prevent damage from overheating and switched on again when cooled. Two variants of the Zhuk-A exist: the FGA-29, and the follow on FGA-35 which will boast an improved detection range of 200 km with 60 targets tracked, the radar will also support a maximum mapping resolution of 1x1m in air-to-surface mode. The FGA-35 will feature a 700 mm antenna with an increased number of transmit and receive modules to between 1000-1,100, a 20 degree incline and a peak power of 6 kW.

oh Zhuk AE and OSF interesting..!!

do you have any idea about RBE 2, Real time 3D map generation , OSF

might be good if you provide details about these too

 

[jaciunite2]

What about a Brazilian built SAAB Gripen NG. Cheaper to purchase, operate and upgrade than the Rafale with performance that is stellar..

darn it, still not allowed to post a link..maybe later..

Gripen is not all sweden.various componets of the aircraft came from western countries.And last but not least it is a light fighter with only one engine and it doesnt meet iaf requirements.Iaf already has hal tejas for that job.

 

[Prometheus]

Why dont they just simply buy mig-35
It can do whatever rafale can do.
It is also a middle class fighter.
And most important thing is that it has an AESA Radar which rafale does not have.

I would be happy as well if the IAF goes for the MIG 35, it is a far superior plane than the Rafale (unlike what the west controlled press portray it to be). Unfortunately, the MMRCA was a stop gap measure, so they wanted planes that were ready and already in production (and tried and tested in actual combat), rather than under development( the reason why it went out in the first round of qualification).

Also its a technical glitch, that once the MMRCA is concluded, the disqualified participants cant re enter. So we are stuck with the Rafale and cant even consider the Euro fighter or Griphen. I personally hope that the Indian Govt. scraps the MMRCA and directly goes for the MIG 35. We already have the MIG 29 in our arsenal, so going for the MIG 35 makes perfect sense as it wont turn into a logistical nightmare.

We also know the unit cost of the MIG 35, thanks to the MMRCA, so even the Russians cant take us for a ride, besides the point that the Rouble has colapsed significantly so we could actually get a good deal, and with the Russians reluctant to use the dollar, we could either pay them in Rs, or Rouble, saving us some foreign exchange!.

Also the fact that France is the only nation making the Rafale, is always portrayed as a positive attribute of the deal, as other nations cant influence it . But as we saw with the Mistral's , its not the case. But if France is the only supplier of weapons and spares, they could and would be in a position to blackmail us into paying any and all cost for them.

 

[Jatt.Hindustan]

Carrier pigeons.

Because all a bloated 4.5gen is gonna do is transmit our location to the enemy.

Better to expand drdo, add more mki and doublr down on t-50, pak fa and fgfa.

They will benefit us more than a deal with France..

Which indian state that france heloed actually won in the end?

Exqctly.

French untrustowrthy.