Alternatives to Dassault Rafale

[Zebra]

@ all users

IMO, F-35 though however lucarative is a product from USA.
How well can we trust USA to provide us with spares and support in circumstances? USA can use this to armtwist India , later for its geostrategic objectives.

How well has USAs commitment on spares, support went with its neutral allies (Countries who has position like India) on defence deals.?
@pmaitra, @Ray, @Kunal Biswas, [MENTION=5292]J:BH22[/:MENTION] and all others.

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If India is really nutral then there won't be any issues to get parts from the US. Again, if India really remains nutral.

 

[sgarg]

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If India is really nutral then there won't be any issues to get parts from the US. Again, if India really remains nutral.

What do you mean "remain neutral". Why should India enslave its military capability to policy of a foreign country.

India has always tried to buy foreign military goods from countries that will ensure stability of supplies. This is the reason why India is so hesitant in buying from USA.

Anything can happen in South Asia as the security situation is complicated. India has a long foreign origin insurgency running, in addition to several internal security challenges. The external situation is continuing to deteriorate.

India ability and/or wish to remain "neutral" is questionable at best. India has to take actions which reinforce its security.

 

[pmaitra]

Not trying to divert from the topic, But will be our fate will be like Libya if we don not accept Rafale or Sukhois ??

Libya discarded Rafale than Migs which gave excuse to western powers to attack Libya, First by creating artificial domestic issues and then a planned military intervention and ultimately killing of the Leader of the country ..

Under puppet Government, Libya is buying many French Jets ..

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Are we going through what Libya had in past ?, Is that why we are sticking with Sukhois which are more a maintenance nightmare .. ?

@pmaitra , @Virendra , @sayareakd Sir, @bengalraider ..

What the western powers did to Libya cannot be replicated even on Pakistan, leave alone India. Also, sooner or later India has to take the plunge to make at home, and I say, why not now?

 

[sorcerer]

In 2012, the French company Dassault won a tender to supply 126 fighter jets to India. The Rafale fighter aircraft is unique in its own self as it replaces seven types of combat aircraft in the French armed forces: the fighter-bomber Jaguar, ship-based attack aircraft Super-Etendard, the aircraft carrier-based fighter plane Crusader, the tactical fighter Mirage F1, the Mirage 2000C interceptor, attack aircraft Mirage 2000N / D and the strategic bomber/reconnaissance aircraft - Mirage IV. However, on this serious note, advantages of the French aircraft end. Rafale is a very specific aircraft and expensive to maintain. Because of this, Dassault Aviation could not sell it to anyone except the French military.
Read more: SU-30MKI LIKELY TO "SHOOT DOWN" RAFALE - News - Society - Russian Radio

Contrast

The fact that goes in favor of Russian fighter jets is that the fleet comprises one third of the fighting strength of the Indian Air Force. Indian pilots are flying these aircrafts for quite a number of years. They have been actively participating in international military exercises, where they have met with the American F-15 and F-16, the French "Mirage" and the British "Typhoon". The results of these exercises have been the same - the Su-30MKI has always emerged victorious. Indian pilots not only detected the enemy first, and therefore, deployed their missiles first, but also using the super-maneuverability of their fighters dragged the enemy into dogfights. And in such matters, according to military experts, the Su-30MKI has no worthy competitors.

The Su-30MKI has very wide arsenal of weapons, including the missile-killer of the "AWACS' with a range of strike-probability of up to 400 kilometers. In addition, India is presently completing development of the aviation version of the supersonic cruise missile BrahMos. Induction of this missile in the weaponry system of the Su-30MKI will make it one of the most formidably armed multi-role combat aircrafts in the world.
Read more: SU-30MKI LIKELY TO "SHOOT DOWN" RAFALE - News - Society - Russian Radio

SU-30MKI LIKELY TO "SHOOT DOWN" RAFALE - News - Society - Russian Radio

 

[sorcerer]

Anything can happen in South Asia as the security situation is complicated. India has a long foreign origin insurgency running, in addition to several internal security challenges. The external situation is continuing to deteriorate.

India ability and/or wish to remain "neutral" is questionable at best. India has to take actions which reinforce its security.

Yes, I agree with you on the fact that situation happening in these parts of the world has affected the country to country diplomacy very seriously than the larger outlook of country to country peace and progress.
The point I wanted to state is being nuetral opens the possibility of adpating to situations in diplomatic dilemmas.

Its a fact that USA cannot be trusted nor any of its western allies which has US influence on its governing bodies. USA for the matter use countries in this region for attaining its geostrategic objectives- kinda like one night stand, no strings attached, way.
This is where neutrality has its advantage.
Again parameters other than security has to be considered considerably when you are calling some one an ally. Lets say, how well has USA or its allies opened up its market for Indian products, trade to trade, technology cooperation,technology transfer and most importantly intel sharing on terrorists coming from Pakistan etc. These are things that needed to be worked on, but things which USA has always used as carrot for its neutral states also armtwist its so called 'friends of east' .

HIstorically, US has played well on both sides when it comes to diplomacy. It is better to maintain the current posturing when it comes to USA.

 

[sayareakd]

Well guys we are being screwed from all sides both Indian, foreigners, military or poltical or babus.

If we dont play smart we will find two 5g planes against us from China and Pak within next five years and their numbers are going to increase every passing day. I have full faith in Chineses manufacturing in bulk.

IAF if dont work with all stake holders is going to get us screwed big time. Rsussian, french or USA all are businessmen they will milk us to our last $$ and more.

 

[karn]

Sir, first of all check $7 billion for what. I mean the additional stuff for the $7 billion deal.

7 billion USD for 40aircraft + some screw driver technology .
They wont even have the facilities to repair their aircraft . Japan was chosen as the north pacific maintenance hub . This ofcourse caused some intense butthurt for the Koreans who now plan to fly their aircraft to Australia which s the south pacific maintenance hub.

 

[Ray]

Not trying to divert from the topic, But will be our fate will be like Libya if we don not accept Rafale or Sukhois ??

Libya discarded Rafale than Migs which gave excuse to western powers to attack Libya, First by creating artificial domestic issues and then a planned military intervention and ultimately killing of the Leader of the country ..

Under puppet Government, Libya is buying many French Jets ..

===========

Are we going through what Libya had in past ?, Is that why we are sticking with Sukhois which are more a maintenance nightmare .. ?

@pmaitra , @Virendra , @sayareakd Sir, @bengalraider ..

You want to compare India with Libya's situation?

Is India really a pushover, politically, economically et al?

 

[Zebra]

7 billion USD for 40aircraft + some screw driver technology .
They wont even have the facilities to repair their aircraft . Japan was chosen as the north pacific maintenance hub . This ofcourse caused some intense butthurt for the Koreans who now plan to fly their aircraft to Australia which s the south pacific maintenance hub.

Sir, LM will buy European built military satellite and launch it for South Korea as part of this $7 billion deal. All necessary eqipments and training included. On top of it ToT form LM for South Korea.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Sir, It just the Defense minster comment that made me to this conclusion ..

SU-30MKI presently has serious problems, They are maintenance prone and more than half of the fleet remain in hanger the rest in Air, It has serious engine and avionics issue in recent past ..

Despite all these, The comment made to have SU-30mki can do the job is something not feasible in current situation unless every major system is considered for upgrade to so call 5th Gen technology ..

Let it be French, Russian or Americans, No one wants India to have a independent matured weapon Industry, Its not good for their business in India ..

In India we have many elements that can effect our system, We have large moles in mass in Politics, Media, A recent example can be found in coast guard sinking terrorist boat, Former Gov donating Indian lands and people to Pakistan and China ..

This is a personal view strictly ..

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You want to compare India with Libya's situation?

Is India really a pushover, politically, economically et al?

 

[Zebra]

It is always good to have your own developed and made weapons.

If we start today , it will help for future.

But what about today's requirements?

 

[Otm Shank2]

such a defeatist attitude ..

why give up on a project critical to indian self reliance and sovereignty because of a few selfish people and a few set backs? The lca may not be an f22 or ef but most importantly its a competent platform to defend indian skies and indian lives. Its cost effective replacement to replace aging aircraft.

The biggest positive the Lca has given India has been It's been a great project to help give experience to indian indigenous talent at designing, indian manufacturers at building capacity and its allowed all of us to Guage our society's ability to work together to accomplish a common goals.

People can remember the past. I cant name many failed projects but can take pride in many stunning successes from Bhartian designed and built boomers, indigenous ACs, Brahmos, Agni series, K4/K5 and the only positive news story about India in the west, India's Mar's mission.

If you don't show some confidence in your intellectual, scientific, industrial segements of society and their highly competent systems like Lca, Arjun etc youre going to doom India to another lost generation of brain Drain.

 

[Kharavela]

Fighting efficiency depends on matching, if not superior weaponry and weapon platforms and the number of operational squadrons that are required to combat and be superior to the adversary's capabilities. We are not as per the Numbers of operational squadrons. Therefore, our fighting efficiency is NOT optimum.

Rafale was to make up the numbers and with an aircraft that was superior to that of the adversary in performance.

Making up numbers with $ 100 M toys ?? Though approx 28 years has been passed since its first flight, Rafale fighters haven't proved outstanding credentials anywhere. How can we claim its superior to adversary aircrafts in performance ? Do we have kill ratio of Rafale against Flankers ??

I heard Mr Parrikar today in conversion with Karan Thapar.

He said that if France reneges on the deal, then, in the interim, India will upgrade the Sukhois.

Let the time come Sir, I am sure, Rafale will be SCRAPPED.

That is where you should update your knowledge.

No one will accept to act as a domestic help.

Even genuine domestic help in the civvy street do not take nonsense.

So, to think that a soldier will act as a 'domestic help' is a laugh.

Today's soldier is not yesterday's village bumpkin.

With due respect, living in denial doesn't help cure the problem. It's a fact that lower rung & contractual staffs such as peons, orderlies, drivers, gardeners are indeed used by highest officials for domestic purposes. Examples are aplenty. Even government vehicles are diverted for domestic uses by higher officials.

You think that CDS is the be all and end all of Jointmanship?

Instead of banking on clichéd rhetoric, try to understand the issue. It is not delayed by the Forces.

No, I do not think CDS as end of Jointmanship, rather I have written that as 1st step. In your link, the reasons for delay in creation of CDS was mentioned & I quote:

The Prime Minister's statement and the agreement among the three service chiefs for a permanent post, which hitherto was a roadblock, is a major breakthrough. At no time in the past have the three services been unanimous in their outlook towards the creation of CDS or the permanent Chairman CoSC, though it was recommended 13 years ago.

My point is that "It is the leadership of Armed Forces themselves, who did not have consensus for CDS & hence the delay".

What are the steps our Defense Forces have undertaken for joint & complementary operations ? Shall you elaborate on the 1st step towards joint ops & combined theatre, pending since 2001:
* Appointment of CDS ?

 

[sgarg]

India needs to spend much much more in defence R&D. The defence R&D needs to be increased by a factor of 3. A number of projects should be given to private sector. Next set of projects should be given to quasi government entities similar to ADA who can harness the expertise in Universities etc. A military vehicles R&D entity should be set up on the tune of ADA. Similarly a air launched weapons, and an air defence design bureau must be set up on the tune of ADA.

These bureaus should feed into private sector manufacturing. The GOI needs to extricate itself from manufacturing - any type of manufacturing. There is a crying need to privatize BHEL etc. as well.

ADA is doing good work despite negative political setup faced by ADA. We need to institutionalize success of ADA.

Indian designed and indian made fighters can do well in war. We must get ourselves rid of slavery of thought.

A number of new projects should be initiated in the field of fighter aircraft - aircraft weapons, electronic warfare, opto electronics, and radar technologies. Rafale is not a miracle. We can match Rafale with local development.

 

[sgarg]

Nobody needs to worry about cancellation of MMRCA tender. Nothing will happen due to it. The additional 2 billion dollars per year channeled to local aviation industry will do wonders. We need to enrich the nation, not some old generals.

 

[grampiguy]

More than anything else, GoI needs to focus on a mission mode project on developing engines. Aero-engines, marine gas turbine engines, diesel engines, India makes none of them. Unless engines are made, all talks of a massive MIC industrialisation will remain ..just talk. Its similar to our fate in Medieval ages when all we could buy from foreign countries was horses and more horses. Any sale of a mare to India was supposed to be punished with capital punishment in Arabian peninsula. Similarly, today we are importing and importing and importing military platforms...without getting the crucial engine technology.

 

[Ray]

Making up numbers with $ 100 M toys ?? Though approx 28 years has been passed since its first flight, Rafale fighters haven't proved outstanding credentials anywhere. How can we claim its superior to adversary aircrafts in performance ? Do we have kill ratio of Rafale against Flankers ??

Cam you quote the kill ratio of any aircraft up for offer including our Tejas?

What are you talking about?

Let the time come Sir, I am sure, Rafale will be SCRAPPED.

should be scrapped. France has reneged on their committment/

With due respect, living in denial doesn't help cure the problem. It's a fact that lower rung & contractual staffs such as peons, orderlies, drivers, gardeners are indeed used by highest officials for domestic purposes. Examples are aplenty. Even government vehicles are diverted for domestic uses by higher officials.

Hardly. Seen the whole thing myself.

No, I do not think CDS as end of Jointmanship, rather I have written that as 1st step. In your link, the reasons for delay in creation of CDS was mentioned & I quote:

Understand the issues and then comment. Clichés don't work beyond aiming to show being knowledgeable when the reality is otherwise.

My point is that "It is the leadership of Armed Forces themselves, who did not have consensus for CDS & hence the delay".

Read the article.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

No one will ever get us anything best, no matter how much money we pour, We already know about French participation in Kaveri project ..

The Russian engine manufactured under Tot are highly unsuited for operations ..

today we are importing and importing and importing military platforms...without getting the crucial engine technology.

 

[Pulkit]

Sir, It just the Defense minster comment that made me to this conclusion ..

SU-30MKI presently has serious problems, They are maintenance prone and more than half of the fleet remain in hanger the rest in Air, It has serious engine and avionics issue in recent past ..

Despite all these, The comment made to have SU-30mki can do the job is something not feasible in current situation unless every major system is considered for upgrade to so call 5th Gen technology ..

Let it be French, Russian or Americans, No one wants India to have a independent matured weapon Industry, Its not good for their business in India ..

In India we have many elements that can effect our system, We have large moles in mass in Politics, Media, A recent example can be found in coast guard sinking terrorist boat, Former Gov donating Indian lands and people to Pakistan and China ..

This is a personal view strictly ..

==========

Just a small observation sir....
This is what Parrikar sir said :
Quote:
"what i mean to say upgrade sukhoi 30 make it more capable
And make the operational % better u will have good and better force"

Which in my understanding means the issues with Su needs to be resolved in either way . Rafale or No Rafale.

 

[karn]

Why is everyone speaking in absolutes ? The large offsets from the Rafale deal is meant to give a boost to the aviation industry here. It is highly doubtful that the government will just walk away from all that .
JV for manufacturing components for the RAfale have already been signed . The defence minister never spoke directly about scrapping the deal . Only about how the IAF can be bolstered despite it . This can mean that he is trying to find ways of reducing the pressure on the negotiating table on the issue that IAF needs new fighters desperately . Basically telling the French side that delays in the negotiation will not affect his position.

Or the deal could collapse , nothing is for certain now.