Alternatives to Dassault Rafale

[Kunal Biswas]

My bad, I misunderstood the lines there ..

The kind of Upgrade that SU-30MKI needs is massive, It start with engines ( AL-31 replaced by F-110 ) to the very avionics and airframe ( Composite and Radar absorption paint ) ..

^^ Some things i am afraid, Russian won`t let us do ..

Just a small observation sir....
This is what Parrikar sir said :
Quote:
"what i mean to say upgrade sukhoi 30 make it more capable
And make the operational % better u will have good and better force"

Which in my understanding means the issues with Su needs to be resolved in either way . Rafale or No Rafale.

 

[Pulkit]

My bad, I misunderstood the lines there ..

The kind of Upgrade that SU-30MKI needs is massive, It start with engines ( AL-31 replaced by F-110 ) to the very avionics and airframe ( Composite and Radar absorption paint ) ..

^^ Some things i am afraid, Russian won`t let us do ..

MKI is ours I think we can modify it till some extent .... Avionics can be one....
Structure and engine we might not .... but I think issue with engines in mid air can be worked on...
If thats done it will be great.
We still have 100 MKIs to be built we can implement these changes on them n hve better a/c...

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Su-30MKI is a multirole fighter. Not a dedicated A2A fighter. A2A is its core competency though.

India doesn't need a light bomber like Su-34.

Su34 a light bomber ?

isnt it a strike fighter ?

 

[arnabmit]

No, Su-34 is a light bomber, which can hold on it's own against fighters. Not a strike fighter.

Su34 a light bomber ?

isnt it a strike fighter ?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

It is built under license with limited upgrade prospect from our side ..

Engines that MKI used must be replaced by better Western engines ..

MKI is ours I think we can modify it till some extent .... Avionics can be one....
Structure and engine we might not .... but I think issue with engines in mid air can be worked on...
If thats done it will be great.
We still have 100 MKIs to be built we can implement these changes on them n hve better a/c...

 

[grampiguy]

A few years ago, UAE AF had offered these Mirage aircrafts to IAF. The Indian idea was to induct advanced Mirage 2000-9 versions in IAF and upgrade the existing ones to augment the Mirage 2000 fleet. That could have given a breather to IAF before a new MMRCA was bought. However, as it happens in IAF, the deal was scuttled for some frivolous reasons. I wonder whether new RM knows about this existing option !!!



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UAE Offers Mirage Fighters to Iraq - Defencenews
The United Arab Emirates may be offloading up to 10 Mirage 2000-9s to the Iraqi Air Force in March, according to a UAE government source.....
The UAE has 36 multirole Mirage 2000 fighters that have been in service since 1986, 30 of which have been extensively refurbished and then upgraded to the same standard as the newer fleet of 32 Mirage 2000-9s delivered starting in 2003 by France's Dassault Aviation.

The technologies and advanced capabilities that the Mirage 2000-9s incorporate include Dassault's "Rafale technology," with similar modular avionics, an LCD glass cockpit with full night vision goggles compatibility, and advanced sensors and systems, according to the Bader 21 purchase agreement signed in 1998.

At the core of the Mirage 2000-9's navigation and attack system is a Thales-and Dassault-developed modular data processing unit similar to the one used in the Rafale. This serves as the mission computer, manages the navigation and attack system, controls the cockpit display system and generates symbology for the head-up and head-down displays. As a result, the Mirage 2000-9 is claimed to enjoy a world-beating, highly intuitive man-machine interface.......

--------------------------------------------

 

[lookieloo]

... Engines that MKI used must be replaced by better Western engines ..

What "Western" engines? I can only think of three workable options and they're all American, one of which isn't approved for export... ever.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

F110-ge-132 ..

what "western" engines? I can only think of three workable options and they're all american, one of which isn't approved for export... Ever.

 

[sgarg]

It is built under license with limited upgrade prospect from our side ..

Engines that MKI used must be replaced by better Western engines ..

Russian engines can be improved by use of better materials. HAL is incapable of R&D as HAL is basically geared for license manufacture. We need to put money in materials research.

Russian engines cannot be replaced by American engines. An aircraft is essentially built around an engine. Engine is an integral part of aircraft.

 

[lookieloo]

F110-ge-132 ..

... a Russian airframe with American engines and Israeli avionics...

 

[Zebra]

... a Russian airframe with American engines and Israeli avionics...

Sir, why? It is not possible?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

It can be, Iranian F-14 are flying with AL-31 instead of older version of F-110 ..

We cannot do any modification to AL-31 as it is licensed, Nor we cannot invest to make a new one as its application is limited to SU-30MKI fleet, The Only solution is change of engines and its better be an American as their are no European ..

Under GE we are license manufacturing GE-F414 for Tejas MK2 fleet, We can also do the same for MKI fleet by evaluating and then starting license manufacturing of F110-ge-132 ..

=========

We are already putting money on new aviation engines for AMCA which will be also used for Tejas ..

Russian engines can be improved by use of better materials. HAL is incapable of R&D as HAL is basically geared for license manufacture. We need to put money in materials research.

Russian engines cannot be replaced by American engines. An aircraft is essentially built around an engine. Engine is an integral part of aircraft.

 

[lookieloo]

Sir, why? It is not possible?

It was a ghost... a spooky, spooky ghost took it!

 

[Zebra]

It was a ghost... a spooky, spooky ghost took it!

Poor spooky ghost.

 

[Pulkit]

That will be quite a task to perform.
Whatever the similarity in specs be they cannot be identical which means a lot of structural changes need to be made to accomodate adjust the new engine.
+
As you yourself said they are licence built do we have the liberty to even think about that change.
As i understand each and every factor is interlinked.
Change in engine will lead to change in multiple factors.

Will that be a good move?
I doubt that.

The best can be improve the Russian Engine.
Improve Maintenance.
Overhauling we have started.

So in total we will have better and safe A/C

It can be, Iranian F-14 are flying with AL-31 instead of older version of F-110 ..

We cannot do any modification to AL-31 as it is licensed, Nor we cannot invest to make a new one as its application is limited to SU-30MKI fleet, The Only solution is change of engines and its better be an American as their are no European ..

Under GE we are license manufacturing GE-F414 for Tejas MK2 fleet, We can also do the same for MKI fleet by evaluating and then starting license manufacturing of F110-ge-132 ..

=========

We are already putting money on new aviation engines for AMCA which will be also used for Tejas ..

 

[Virendra]

Are we going through what Libya had in past ?, Is that why we are sticking with Sukhois which are more a maintenance nightmare .. ?

I think we are in a drift state where we've disloadged ourselves from a comfortable but enslaving over reliance on import; and are yet to dig our heels firmly into indigenization.
I can't compare with Libya because :
a) We've never been as helpless as them, even if the west tried all its force to co-erce submission out of us on any point.
b) We've kept ourselves fairly non-aligned and negotiated with all sides to have their pressure tactics (specially the ones from west) cross neutralize against each other.
c) Our over reliance if any, has been with Russia mostly which hasn't been capable/willing enough to imperialize a big catch like India. These are not the Raj days anymore.

Going forward, our policy makers do realize that importing stuff can take us only so far. Push to indigenous is the only way out, however painful and messy the process might be.
With us it is like the morning lazyness, we know that we're getting late and have to get up .. yet we dilly dally and move glacially slow.

We werenot, are not and will not be a Libya. Not atleast till the current government keeps functioning

Regards,
Virendra

 

[Virendra]

Are we going through what Libya had in past ?, Is that why we are sticking with Sukhois which are more a maintenance nightmare .. ?

Libya's invasion is not just because of some Arms deal gone sour. But yes, many other factors of the same taste have contributed to it.

As far as India is concerned. I think we are in a drift state where we've disloadged ourselves from a comfortable but enslaving over reliance on import; and are yet to dig our heels firmly into indigenization.
But I can't compare us with Libya because :
a) We've never been as helpless as them, even if the west tried all its force to co-erce submission out of us on any point.
b) We've kept ourselves fairly non-aligned and negotiated with all sides to have their pressure tactics (specially the ones from west) cross neutralize against each other.
c) Our over reliance if any, has been with Russia mostly which hasn't been capable/willing enough to imperialize a big catch like India. These are not the Raj days anymore.

Going forward, our policy makers do realize that importing stuff can take us only so far. Push to indigenous is the only way out, however painful and messy the process might be.
With us it is like the morning lazyness, we know that we're getting late and have to get up .. yet we dilly dally and move glacially slow.

We werenot, are not and will not be a Libya. Not atleast till the current government keeps functioning

Regards,
Virendra

 

[Kunal Biswas]

One must not forget MIG-21 crashes , HAL or Russian couldn't able to make R-25 engines safer since late 80s, The problems are known and no solution ..

By saying that HAL can improve some licensed Russian engine, Will be the same mistake we did in past and repeating it , We need to learn from past experience ..

==========

If defense minster said that we can do with upgraded SU-30MKIs, We are expecting these to very end ..

We cannot do anything better with AL-31 as they are right now, IAF maintenance crew are perhaps more efficient than their flying counterparts ..

The rest is explained in my earlier post #131 ..

That will be quite a task to perform.
Whatever the similarity in specs be they cannot be identical which means a lot of structural changes need to be made to accomodate adjust the new engine.
+
As you yourself said they are licence built do we have the liberty to even think about that change.
As i understand each and every factor is interlinked.
Change in engine will lead to change in multiple factors.

Will that be a good move?
I doubt that.

The best can be improve the Russian Engine.
Improve Maintenance.
Overhauling we have started.

So in total we will have better and safe A/C

Russian engines can be improved by use of better materials. HAL is incapable of R&D as HAL is basically geared for license manufacture. We need to put money in materials research.

Russian engines cannot be replaced by American engines. An aircraft is essentially built around an engine. Engine is an integral part of aircraft.

 

[mans.randhawa]

One must not forget MIG-21 crashes , HAL or Russian couldn't able to make R-25 engines safer since late 80s, The problems are known and no solution ..

By saying that HAL can improve some licensed Russian engine, Will be the same mistake we did in past and repeating it , We need to learn from past experience ..

==========

If defense minster said that we can do with upgraded SU-30MKIs, We are expecting these to very end ..

We cannot do anything better with AL-31 as they are right now, IAF maintenance crew are perhaps more efficient than their flying counterparts ..

The rest is explained in my earlier post #131 ..

Buy Russian junk first then spend more money in maintaining and upgrading it with western components bravo and 3 cheers for IAF think tank , hope sanity prevails and rafale deal comes through.

 

[karn]

The mif 21 was the first supersonic aircraft the IAF used . It was every difficult for plots to get used to it . And later the MOD sourced substandard spares from eastern european countries instead of from Russia itself . Being western does not inherently make an aircraft more reliable.
F-104, the widowmaker.

There were seven crashes in 1962, 12 in 1964, and 28 in 1965, or more than two a month. By mid-1966, 61 German Starfighters had crashed, with a loss of 35 pilots. At the height of the crisis, the Starfighter accident rate peaked at 139 per 100,000 flying hours. As a result, the German press went into a feeding frenzy and the F-104G was given derogatory nicknames such as the "Flying Coffin" or the "Widowmaker

During its period of service with the German armed forces, about 270 German Starfighters were lost in accidents, just under 30 percent of the total force. About 110 pilots were killed. However, the attrition rate in German service was not all that much greater than that of the F-104 in service with several other air forces, including the United States Air Force. Canada had the unenviable record of losing over 50 percent of its 200 single-seat CF-104s in flying accidents. The loss rate of Luftwaffe Starfighters was not all that extraordinary, since the Luftwaffe had suffered a 36 percent attrition rate with the Republic F-84F Thunderstreak, the Starfighter's immediate predecessor.

Pakistan retired the F104 a year after the 1971 war .. Maybe they were on to something .