Alternatives to Dassault Rafale

Pulkit

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

1) People who blame DRDO are idiots. With ever changing GSQR, measly budget, tech sanctions etc. DRDO developed a fighter from absolute 0. This is commendable.
You did ask for correction from one of them.... Yes DRDO did it... Apart from one thing everything was great... They didnt meet the deadline...Though I agree with the reasoning of delay few others don't... Being responsible is one thing being blamed is other...
2) Cannot/shouldn't be ignored as an advanced trainer. Tejas Mk1 is hardly a frontline fighter.
I will beg to differ MK1 in its current form is also a great fighter aircraft...Though I know MK2 will be better but having few more squad of TEJAS won't bring any harm... and here i mean MK1...
3) Political reasons. Not enough kickbacks offered, maybe?
Might be ... Kickbacks awesome .... which company will pay us more... Rafale is victorious awesome... Its essential..Its the best...
4) It is available. Google. Some features would obviously be kept secret for obvious reason.
No Its not It was not revealed.... Performance of Rafale in Public has not been made public...
5) Absolutely. Specially in Avionics, EW, Engine tech, precision engineering, automated assembly line, Quality control, etc.
Most of these things are under development in JV or can be developed in partnership....
Foreign experts services can also be used....
And no body knows the extent of TOT will be absorbed....
6) Absolutely. Currently there is only 1 5th gen fighter in the world with 1 country, which will never be exported. 90-95% of world's air force has 4-4.5gen assets.
I believe there is more than 1.... If I may include Chinese Jap Russian and US F35 F22.... and all the top Airforces are having them (F35) that too at a price close to our rafale.....
7) TOT would also include manufacturing techniques, precision engineering techniques, quality control, etc.
lets wait for the final agreement at it.... Even if they do it will come at a lot of cost....
8) A decade lost due to political reasons cannot be recuperated. 2015-2020 would be a lull period irrespective of which aircraft is inducted.
You have to retire flying coffins and believe me or not Our Pilots will be safer in Tejas than in those coffins....by 2018 we can hve upto 75 mk1 with another assembly running...later we canshift to mk2 that will be atleast 3 squads an ideal replacement....even rafale will not be there till then....
9) There is enough money. Either compare acquisition costs or lifecycle costs. Don't compare acquisition cost of one with lifecycle cost of the other. Do you know that lifecycle cost of MKI is much more than Rafale?
Define enough money? yes the cost of MKI is more ... do you know its a heavy A/C and Rafale is medium....Thats not the point...
Rafale will loose its place in a decade or less with the arrival of fgfa and amca..
do you know hw much will upgrade cost us of rafale.... heavy....
10) What do you mean by "Future of Rafale"? Maintenance cost of Rafale is included in the Lifecycle cost.
I meant upgradation cost....
Future Replacements:
Light: MiG-21 Bison (125)>>Tejas Mk2 (160).
Medium: MiG-27 (100)>>Rafale (126+63)
Heavy: Su-30MKI (272)>>Super-30 (225)

> FGFA would make up for extra Squad numbers (200) to take it to 42 squads
> By the time AMCA is ready, it would replace Mirage 2000-5 Mk2 (51) and Mig-29UPG (66) as Medium Air Superiority/SEAD/DEAD (Multirole) fighter.
> Rafale will eventually replace the role of Jaguars (Ground attack/CAS) once they are phased out.
hmmm replacements .... hmmmm.... so till 2020 we will not have any new squads or till 2025 as we will be only replacing our ageing fleet.....
@Twinblade or @p2prada can correct me if I am wrong in mu understanding.
 
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ersakthivel

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

@Anony86 and @Ripples

I forgot to mention one of the most important points there is to the Rafale.

Rafale is nuclear capable, LCA is not.
Who told you tejas is not nuclear capable? Any link?
 
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arnabmit

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

Answered inline.

You did ask for correction from one of them.... Yes DRDO did it... Apart from one thing everything was great... They didnt meet the deadline...Though I agree with the reasoning of delay few others don't... Being responsible is one thing being blamed is other...

Yes they didn't meet the deadline, so? With the severe handicaps that DRDO had, it is but obvious that they would not meet deadline. IAF have the habit to setting impossible GSQRs and impossible deadlines. If by chance the GSQR is met, they immediately change the GSQR.

I will beg to differ MK1 in its current form is also a great fighter aircraft...Though I know MK2 will be better but having few more squad of TEJAS won't bring any harm... and here i mean MK1...

Mk1 is a strictly "acceptable" aircraft, suited for nations who are NOT surrounded by 2 hostile neighbors. Mk2 would be a "decent" aircraft which would have a fair chance against hostile fighters. More order of Mk1 is pure wastage of money and production resources.

Might be ... Kickbacks awesome .... which company will pay us more... Rafale is victorious awesome... Its essential..Its the best...

Were you trying to make some point with this statement? Rafale and Typhoon are THE best medium multirole 4.5gen aircraft in the world today.

No Its not It was not revealed.... Performance of Rafale in Public has not been made public...

Google for leaked performance reports. Go on.

Most of these things are under development in JV or can be developed in partnership....
Foreign experts services can also be used....
And no body knows the extent of TOT will be absorbed....

And would those JV/Partnerships come for free? Then why not attached to Rafale?
Extent of TOT? similar to MKI so that they can be made in India.


I believe there is more than 1.... If I may include Chinese Jap Russian and US F35 F22.... and all the top Airforces are having them (F35) that too at a price close to our rafale.....

No. There is only F22. F35 is not 5th gen as per Lockheed's own definition, 4.75 Gen at the most. The Japs won't sell anyone and neither they hostile to India, so inconsequential. We would have FGFA by the time the Chinese bathtub flies.

lets wait for the final agreement at it.... Even if they do it will come at a lot of cost....

Nothing in the world is free. All TOT costs are included in the deal.

You have to retire flying coffins and believe me or not Our Pilots will be safer in Tejas than in those coffins....by 2018 we can hve upto 75 mk1 with another assembly running...later we canshift to mk2 that will be atleast 3 squads an ideal replacement....even rafale will not be there till then....

75 MK1s within 2018? Only in wet dreams. By 2020 Our pilots would be even safer and much more equipped in Rafale than in Mk1.

Define enough money? yes the cost of MKI is more ... do you know its a heavy A/C and Rafale is medium....Thats not the point...
Rafale will loose its place in a decade or less with the arrival of fgfa and amca..
do you know hw much will upgrade cost us of rafale.... heavy....

Point is that Mk2 alone cannot build capacity. If medium multirole fighters are to be dropped, then it would have to be replaced by a mix of Light & Heavy aircraft of defined role.
MLUs are separate to Lifecycle costs and costly for any aircraft. Loosing it's place in a decade? on what basis? on the qualitative measurement of Awesomeness"?
Didn't know that 'heavy' was an unit of currency.


I meant upgradation cost....

What about upgradation costs? Do you have any inkling of actual figures? No. Because no one does till the time the upgradation is planned.

hmmm replacements .... hmmmm.... so till 2020 we will not have any new squads or till 2025 as we will be only replacing our ageing fleet.....

Yes, that is the sad truth.
 

p2prada

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

MMRCA Misgivings Unfounded - The New Indian Express

The founders of our Constitution gave us the freedom of speech, but they possibly didn't realise that there would be something called a Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) of the IAF that would be so set upon by some armchair critics as to blur the fine line between free speech and misinformation. Bharat Karnad's "Why Rafale is a Big Mistake" (TNIE, July 25) does just that, besides being full of innuendos and disinformation. To be sure, this writer is just an academic now but one who spent the better part of three decades smelling burnt aviation turbine fuel on the flight line, including flight testing aircraft, and in a senior position pushing tri-service procurement proposals in HQ Integrated Defence Staff.

It would be good to give the readers of this newspaper a low-down on how the MMRCA requirement came about. The IAF, around the turn of the century, after carrying out a threat assessment found the need for a capability to be acquired to fill a void in its combat fleet to address the conflict spectrum that India was likely to face. Accordingly, a requirement for 126 Mirage 2000-5 aircraft (improved version of Mirage 2000) was projected to the government in 2000. The Mirages had performed very creditably in the Kargil conflict and since a drawdown in fleet strength was looming due to obsolescence of the MiG-21s and ground attack fleet, it was felt that the improved version of the Mirage would fit in as a replacement. But post-Kargil, the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) came into vogue in 2002 and a multi-vendor process (as mandated by the DPP) commenced with revised Qualitative Requirements (QRs). The Request for Proposal for the almost $10.5 billion project was sent in 2007 to all six aircraft manufacturers who make this class of aircraft, other than China, who then applied in the mandated two-bid format, with each vendor giving a technical bid and a commercial bid at the same time; it is important to understand this as it implies that the price bid of a company got fixed in dollar/Euro terms at that point. As per the DPP, initially only the technical bids are opened and the equipment put through an evaluation process which includes a field evaluation trial. This technical evaluation throws up vendors who meet the QRs that had been projected and only their commercial bids are opened and assessed to select the winner.

The MMRCA evaluation followed the DPP to the 't' with not a whiff of any controversy, and after very rigorous ground and flight evaluations, two vendors qualified. The evaluation of their commercial bids saw the selection of the French Rafale in 2011. An attempt is now being made to make a textbook evaluation and selection process mired in controversy of performance criteria (QRs), costs, and surprisingly a corruption allegation.

That the cost of the project in rupee terms (and not dollar value) would increase is a no-brainer as more than three years have elapsed in decision-making and the rupee value has depreciated. Any further delay will jack it up further but that would have happened with whichever aircraft had met the criteria. What Karnad is now questioning is the force composition of the IAF arrived at by professional planners and, without being an air power expert himself, suggesting a new mix of "..Tejas Mk I for short range air defence, Tejas MkII as MMRCA and the Su-50 PAK FA as fifth generation fighter". This is a perfect example of the ignorant trying to drive defence force structuring as the yet-to-be inducted Tejas Mk I is unsuitable for IAF operational requirements (and hence would limited to only two squadrons) and Tejas Mk II would have less than one-third the flight range and armament capability of the MMRCA and just qualify to be a MiG 21 replacement. Why the use of future tense? Because Tejas Mk II is still on DRDO's drawing board and would NOT enter squadron service before 2020-22, just like the fifth generation fighter (which would be 2025 or later). But the requirement is literally now, as the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence (15th Lok Sabha) itself despairingly noted that the IAF strength was down to 34 squadrons (instead of the sanctioned 42) and reducing further, thus requiring new timely acquisitions.

It is most unprofessional to link defence acquisitions of one country with the threat perception of another as Karnad has done and it is downright spiteful for doubting the competence of test pilots and test engineers of the IAF by saying that the Brazilians had doubts about Rafale's radar and its head-up display. Do Brazil, Canada, the Netherlands, Norway, Singapore and Morocco (cited by Karnad as having rejected the Rafale) have two nuclear armed nations as adversaries? Have these nations ever gone to war with their neighbours in the past six decades? Costs, albeit important, don't decide acquisitions; it is the capability one desires that is the driving factor and it's our misfortune that HAL has not delivered this to the nation. The IAF just looks at getting the right product to safeguard the national skies, as it is its duty to do so. The IAF is accountable to the nation if it does not perform; pray, what is the responsibility attached to Karnad for his alternative force composition suggestion for the IAF?

The visit of the French foreign minister and his supposed canvassing for the Rafale, that Karnad finds fault with, is something that any politician would do for his country; hopefully, there would come a day when the Indian foreign minister would do the same for a HAL-produced aircraft, Inshallah! Till then, let the professionals do their job of recommending what is good for the defence of the nation. Please trust someone. In the case of the IAF, it is a crack team of test pilots and test engineers on whom the country has spent a fortune to train. Let armchair critics not derail a capability provider that successive IAF chiefs have urged the government to procure. This trend to doubt recommendations of service chiefs is dangerous and is conspicuous by the surety of it being raised each time a big-ticket item of any of the three services is close to fruition. Disagreements based on professionally sound arguments are always welcome—but they come with a caveat in matters of national security. The naysayers must be held responsible, too. It is only right that readers of this newspaper are made wise accordingly.

The writer, a retired Air Vice Marshal, is a distinguished fellow at Centre for Air Power Studies.

Email: [email protected]
He said the exact same things I have been saying for the last couple of years now. Maybe because these are the facts.
 

Pulkit

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

Can u quote properly so that I can reply.......thats not what i am not gonna ask for like a few or one in particular who is rushing for a number and gonna leave..
Here s the reponse:
1)I was saying the same both are at some fault difficulties and hurdles were there....I am saying IAF is also responsible... there is no difference between my and ur statement...
2)then dont call it trainer.... yes we have hostile countries.... don't forget one of them is a failed state.... And Tejas is more than capable to take them on...
Every sortie/interception cannot be taken my MRCA it will be too costly....
3)Best based on what? See we dont know how it performed in Indian subcontinent..
4)Share the source ... Even if it is leaked is it reliable or is it just a stunt to advertise...
5)No it won't be free but better than TOT as new thing wll be developed ..Its better than just learning a thing.... Research is always btter...
6)Ok F35 is not...and japs are not selling but we are making one of our own....
7)4 years 8 per year will be 32 and with onemore assembly line 74 so thats not just impossible...given we start it today....
8)we dont need to be sad... there is a feasible solution just sad is we are not looking at it...


Tejas mk1 will be improved once Mk2 is developed.. with upgraded radar and all the avionics updation....

Answered inline.
 

Pulkit

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
We were also quoting an article they were also facts ......


He said the exact same things I have been saying for the last couple of years now. Maybe because these are the facts.
 

p2prada

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

1) People who blame DRDO are idiots. With ever changing GSQR, measly budget, tech sanctions etc. DRDO developed a fighter from absolute 0. This is commendable.
Give the Nigerians 30 years and enough cash and even they can make a LCA type aircraft.

Do you know Korea made their fighter jet from scratch too? And do you know they only took 3 years to flight test it?

First flight in 2002 and induction in 2005. Their fighter version already has export orders.
 

Pulkit

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p2prada

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

@p2prada you missed this question... You are talking of facts ... provide a link....
In the IAF only Mirage-2000 and Jaguar are nuclear capable. Rafale will make that three nuclear capable aircraft. MKI will be nuclear capable with the addition of Brahmos, or else even this aircraft is not nuclear capable.

Mig-21, Mig-27, Mig-29, LCA are not nuclear capable.
 
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Pulkit

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

Give the Nigerians 30 years and enough cash and even they can make a LCA type aircraft.

Do you know Korea made their fighter jet from scratch too? And do you know they only took 3 years to flight test it?

First flight in 2002 and induction in 2005. Their fighter version already has export orders.
Oh u forgot even pakis did it..though not on there own but they did it..and they also have orders...lol...
Its not that easy ...
 

Pulkit

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

In the IAF only Mirage-2000 and Jaguar are nuclear capable. Rafale will make that three nuclear capable aircraft. MKI will be nuclear capable with the addition of Brahmos, or else even this aircraft is not nuclear capable.

Mig-21, Mig-27, Mig-29, LCA are not nuclear capable.
so you wanna say it will be nuclear capable...and It has the ability to be nuclear capable once brahmos is there...?
 

Zebra

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

One of the crap of this article.--->
That the cost of the project in rupee terms (and not dollar value) would increase is a no-brainer as more than three years have elapsed in decision-making and the rupee value has depreciated. Any further delay will jack it up further but that would have happened with whichever aircraft had met the criteria
**********************************************************************************************************



Almost the price of Gripen and FA-18 nearly remains the same as they offered in MRCA.

I am talking flyaway cost of each bird. The last deal of FA-18 G gone to Australia. It was $533.4 million for 12 aircrafts. Flyaway cost without jamming equipments (as they may use their own).

And It is the latest deal also.

******************************************************************************************************

A link for FA-18 price, (dated Dec 9, 2013)
Boeing Faces March Decision On F/A-18 E/F, EA-18G | Defense content from Aviation Week

It says.........."with its portion at a flyaway cost of $37 million, Gibbons says. This excludes the price of two General Electric engines and electric warfare systems, both of which are government-furnished equipment. The total flyaway cost for a Super Hornet is roughly $50 million, he says. The Growler, which includes jammers and specialized avionics, costs about $9 million more per jet, he adds."
 

Pulkit

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

Give the Nigerians 30 years and enough cash and even they can make a LCA type aircraft.

Do you know Korea made their fighter jet from scratch too? And do you know they only took 3 years to flight test it?

First flight in 2002 and induction in 2005. Their fighter version already has export orders.
I think you were talking about KAI T-50 Golden Eagle ...
Was made by Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) along with the American aerospace company Lockheed Martin.
It was Started in 1990....

Just a quick google of it.... but what was your point?
 

p2prada

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

so you wanna say it will be nuclear capable...and It has the ability to be nuclear capable once brahmos is there...?
Rafale, Mirage-2000 and Jaguar are nuclear capable even without Brahmos. Our main means of delivery is gravity bombs. After they drop the bomb the electronics have to be shielded from EMP.

MKI and LCA are not adequately shielded from nuclear zones.
 

Defcon 1

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

so you wanna say it will be nuclear capable...and It has the ability to be nuclear capable once brahmos is there...?
Who told you that Brahmos can carry nuclear warhead?
 

Pulkit

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

Rafale, Mirage-2000 and Jaguar are nuclear capable even without Brahmos. Our main means of delivery is gravity bombs. After they drop the bomb the electronics have to be shielded from EMP.

MKI and LCA are not adequately shielded from nuclear zones.
Can they or they cannot be?
 

Pulkit

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

Who told you that Brahmos can carry nuclear warhead?
@p2prada that he told me that refer to quote 133....

but what the issue... are you saying its not?
 
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