Alternatives to Dassault Rafale

[Zebra]

Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

What will be consequences after that super duper 'deep strike mission' in today's China!

India is ready for it....?

Have fun after it.

 

[HMS Astute]

Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

thought india and china were good friends, if not allies.

 

[p2prada]

Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

Deep Strike Mission:- This actually is the biggest fallacy that Rafale will be used to carry out deep strike. Just for a moment assume that war has been imposed on India and GOI has no option but to respond. If the war happens to be with PAKISTAN, we know that majority of the air bases and military installment of Pakistan is situated at less than 300 km from the border. These areas are highly defended by air defence SAMs. Rafale with big load under it's belly will easily have RCS 2m2 - 3m2 or more. With such RCS, the ground based batteries of these SAMs will detect Rafale from more than 100km. The very question of Rafale's survivability under these circumstances come under the scanner as far as deep strike mission is concerned. It is very common understanding, that these missions will be undertaken by more reliable, faster and world beater BRAHMOS. What Rafale will do as part of A2G mission is to give air support to ground troops for which almost all the fighters other than Mig 21 is good at and Tejas will be cheaper and idle solution.

Google the size and area of the Indian Ocean and get back to me. Read up on what our service chiefs mean when they talk about "from Malacca Straits to the Persian Gulf." At the same time look up the Chinese map. Google the military regions of China and see where the headquarters are located at. Looking at Pakistan only is being myopic. Also look up why all air forces have started giving a lot of importance to deep strike.

Rafale will use a combination of flight tactics, terrain and EW to mask itself.

Brahmos isn't meant for deep strike. It is a tactical weapon.

Can Perform Task, which Su 30mki can't perform and Tejas will not able to perform:- No one ever mentioned with sufficient logic, that what are these tasks.

Su-30 has a different role. Tasking is different, it is dependent on equipment.

Have you ever thought how LCA will perform a recce mission from Kalaikunda to Nicobar with its crappy range? Do you know why it is the MKI which is equipped with EL/M 2060P pods and not Mirage-2000s or Mig-29s? And LCA isn't a first day of war fighter anyway. Disputing that is like advertising you don't know anything about the capabilities of the LCA.

Have to induct it as Fighters squadrons of IAF is depleting:- I like to ask that is, why the hell they advocating to spend $20 billion for 126 Rafale when we can get 300 Tejas(mk1 & mk2) and 100+ Super Sukhoi for the same price or even lesser price. This way we can induct get rid of all our problems. Both Tejas and Super Sukhoi is way ahead of anything Pakistan will have in the next two decade and comparable to what China is gonna induct in terms of capability in the coming decade.

Rafale has already achieved IOC and FOC. Even the radar has achieved FOC. Now, where is LCA? Even Mk1 has not received FOC. Mk2 is not even flying. So, what's that nonsense about getting 300 LCAs?

Will help to fix Kaveri problem, with the know how of it's engine:- Again something which everyone argues without knowing the reality. Some gave me the link to read Su 30mki 100% indigenous fighter. They need to understand that HAL still don't manufacture engines on its own and it has to buy the engine from Russia. Yes it is true that some parts of the engine it can make of its own, but they don't have the technical know-how of some critical technology. Similarly the source codes of the radar of Su 30mki, the display system, has never been transferred and will never will. You can get technical knowledge of hardware parts but not any source codes. Do you guys really think that HAL people sit back in their lab and write the source codes of all these. Surely in Rafale case, there will be more TOT but not all and critical technology what we want most of it will never get transferred like the technical details(source codes) of AESA radar, Spectra, etc. And whatever gets transferred it will take HAL close to 15 years to completely master it, by then the technology itself will get obsolete.

SCB technology for AL-31FP was transferred. We only source raw materials from Russia due to contract obligations. We can make spares from Indian raw materials. Radar source code was transferred many years ago. Indian companies supply the display systems. It is made by SAMTEL. Without any of these it is impossible to integrate our own weapons by ourselves. Why don't people understand this fact? It is so simple.

Radar ToT is 60% for Rafale. This is minimum. Beyond that we many not need more. It is still too early to talk about how much we are getting. HAL won't take 15 years to learn because the Rafale program itself won't take that long. HAL will have to learn everything by the time the 4th phase starts because that's when the first indigenous Rafale will be made. That could happen well before 2020.

Can be used for next 40 years:- I doubt 40 years, because if we are talking about 40 years, we are talking about 2060-2070 timeline and considering how fast the technology evolves these days, these dates are absurd. 2040-2045 will be more realistic. And I also want to question when 5th gen fighters will be available to us for induction, most probably from 2022 onwards, it will be stupidity to induct Rafale which again is termed as costly than fifth gen fighters and will be nowhere close to them.

2060 is what the IAF said. Not me. We are still using Mig-29 and Mirage-2000. They were inducted in the '80s and will be used up to 2030. That's 50 years. More than what's for Rafale. And Rafale has much longer service life than either the Mig-29 or the Mirage-2000.

Less break down, higher availability:- The recent data released by French Air Force is of 44% availability of these fighters which is comparable to Sukhoi's today. Moreover these are today's number when the fighter is still new, just imagine what will happen once they will be in service for 10-15 years, their availability rate will fall down to 30 odd percentage(even worse than Sukhoi).

Amazing. Your ability to fart is astounding.

The Rafale As Canada's Next Fighter – Part 3 | Ottawa Citizen

The average availability during the conflict was 95%, with only three mechanics per plane

It gets annoying when people post whatever the heck they want without any thought or reason.

And Sukhoi's availability is much higher.

Malaysia Invests In Sukhoi Fighter Readiness | Aviation International News

The increased spending is meant to boost combat readiness of the Royal Malaysian Air Force (RMAF) Su-30MKM fleet from the current level of 65 to 70 percent to 85 percent in the "near term" and eventually increase this to 100 percent.

It's funny when a small air force that has to send their aircraft to foreign countries for servicing has such a high availability demand, suddenly it is the exact opposite for the IAF when spares and support comes from within the country.

Unmatched avionics in the region:- Now this is true. But two possible set of questions comes in mind. Firstly, for how long this will be true? It will be true for Pakistan, may be for ever but we don;t need Rafale for Pakistan. Even the IAF's official hold the same status on this in the recently held discussion in vayu-stratpost. And for China, this will stand true for a decade from now but not after. And again the question arises why induct Rafale when we will be able to induct FGFA at a cheaper price than this. And we also will have 272 Sukhoi's and if my alternative of 300 Tejas & 100+ Super Sukhoi is considered, then close to 380 Sukhoi's and all better than their Sukhoi's and it's variant(J 16). Second question that comes to mind is, though this is true but do we need something this or do we have better alternative which will give way better result.

Avionics evolve every few years. And Rafale is completely modular in nature. For eg: If there is something wrong with the engine, in case of LCA they have to replace the entire engine, but in case of Rafale they just have to replace the problematic module. The engine has some 20+ modules and they can all be removed without having to remove the engine itself.

In the future, both IAF and ALA will work together on the Rafale for upgrades. Meaning, the two air forces will decide what's required for MLU to make the aircraft better.

We will be inducting Rafale at the same time when LCA Mk2 will be seeing its first flight. IAF wants the big bird in the hand, not that half plucked chicken in the bush. The IAF ex-Air Chief already explained they don't need more MKIs. I don't know why this is so hard to grasp.

Lesser operating cost:- Not at all. It is a twin engine platform, not good availability(recent figure of 44% suggest that which also means higher maintenance), set up of new logistics, etc.

It has lesser operating cost compared to the MKI, not LCA. The rest is crap you made up.

 

[p2prada]

Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

thought india and china were good friends, if not allies.

Rivals, so to speak. And we have a border dispute with them.

 

[Ripples]

Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

@ P2prada
Would you mind further clarifying the following points.
1. Reverse engineering is an act of illegality yet all great and aspiring powers have done it in future. Because reinventing wheel all the way isn't a smart way after all. Then why are we or for how far long will be remain afraid shy away from such attempts ?
2.

That would be illegal. And unnecessary. Anyway, why modify MKI when we can buy Su-35? And why buy Su-35 when we can buy Rafale... thereby placing our eggs in two baskets.

 

[Ripples]

Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

@p2prada
Would you mind further clarifying the following points.
1. Reverse engineering is an act of illegality yet all great and aspiring powers have done it in future. Because reinventing wheel all the way isn't a smart way after all. Then why are we or for how far long will we remain afraid and shy away from such attempts ?
2.

That would be illegal. And unnecessary. Anyway, why modify MKI when we can buy Su-35? And why buy Su-35 when we can buy Rafale... thereby placing our eggs in two baskets.

We modify MKI and do not buy Su 35 or say Rafale because as of now we have already taken TOT on MKI and as of now no serious study has taken place ( that we are aware of) which shows that MKI can't get modified to serve the purpose of Rafale to large extent. Then why do we buy Rafale?
3. Since the technology obtained under ToT can't be used on other projects then why exactly we get it to begin with ? Starting from the old days Chinese modified each and everything they bought from international market with varied success but at least they tried and nicely got away. Russians are desperate for Indian money. As long as they are getting big orders they wont mind Indians playing a little foul here and there. It isn't that ... it is actually the spineless clueless Indian decision makers with pathetic management skills and only 2nd tier scientists and technicians that the gov research facilities boast off . Still best guys are not well paid in India and prefer working abroad.
4. What spare support has gotta do with ToT? For different migs ( excluding 29 ) we had high degree of ToT . Even that has been the case with Jaguar . Yet we are still fond of the grey market and begging process. Even after producing mig 27 in dozens of numbers for decades HAL couldn't complete a decent upgrade on time and only ended up wasting millions in the name of modification. We signed the MKI contract in 2000 then got our first delivery in 2004 and now its 2014 and we are still wrestling for ToT. And if one tries to be logical the situation shouldn't be anything different for Rafale as well.
5. Many people think science and technology can be done teaching by spoon feeding and hand holding but it can't be farther from the truth. BY discipline practice and good guidance a lousy mechanic and get better and more efficient but can never turn into an engineer. Defence technologies are the culminations of the bests of every field. It involves the so called "extreme technologies" which can push the limits. India simply do not have the industrial or even technological base to under take a highly sophisticated project such as Rafale. Indian think tanks neither have the will not the vision to go out of the way and hire the best Indian brains by paying extra. Just as the saying goes " If you pay peanuts you only get monkeys ". No amount of ToT can ever groom a top class scientist out of a mediocrity.
6. I didn't know If AIF called the eco core obsolete but they wanted to go with kabini core for some reason...I though may be price issue. can you provide me a link on this plz.
7. Obsolescence is more or less a marketing gimmick. If AL-31FP is obsolete then entire Chinese Airforce is a bunch of cave men. Just having something more advance does not necessarily make the previous generation obsolete. More often that not technology move on to the next level without exploiting the past generations to its fullest. That's the job of developers. The fact that there is no inter agency technology sharing in India is not because we are angels and do not do wrongs by violating protocols rather because guys are just not smart enough and do not understand the technology well enough to pass it on to someone else.
6. I agree with you, ToT in a country such as India is absolutely waste of money ..
7. India on per with USA ? well no comments on that. What ever little I know says that variable cycle engine technologies are dated back to 1980's. Yes some serious optimisations are going on and as far as I know Russia in no where in the contention where from the Indians will join the party?
8. The Indian people who works on the old technology will deliver advanced products after 15/20 years ? Well this sounds like saying that a student who never went through the classical mechanics thoroughly will teach me about quantum field theory after 20 years. Science & tech can never ever happen this way. Unless Indains are aliens.
9 By the way that 44% availability of Rafale as mentioned by Anony86 is not his own crap at least. It is the revelation of StratPost vids.

 

[SajeevJino]

Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

Wow, comparing Syria with capabilities of Pakistan & CHINA. Western countries has gone for deep strike missions only against third world countries which do not posses any capable air defence.

the libiyan AD Asserts

www.ausairpower.net/PDF-A/DT-Libya-Jun-2011.pdf

Syrian IDAS

https://csis.org/publication/syrias-uncertain-air-defense-capabilities


compare with Pakistan AD

www.claws.in/images/journals_doc/SW J.99-106.pdf



We know Chinese operating more number of HQ 9 System comparable to S 300

 

[Anony86]

Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

Google the size and area of the Indian Ocean and get back to me. Read up on what our service chiefs mean when they talk about "from Malacca Straits to the Persian Gulf." At the same time look up the Chinese map. Google the military regions of China and see where the headquarters are located at. Looking at Pakistan only is being myopic. Also look up why all air forces have started giving a lot of importance to deep strike.

Rafale will use a combination of flight tactics, terrain and EW to mask itself.

Have you ever thought how LCA will perform a recce mission from Kalaikunda to Nicobar with its crappy range? Do you know why it is the MKI which is equipped with EL/M 2060P pods and not Mirage-2000s or Mig-29s? And LCA isn't a first day of war fighter anyway. Disputing that is like advertising you don't know anything about the capabilities of the LCA.

So, you want to say that EW system of Rafale will block/jam the huge radar of PLAN warships. It's childish. Moreover we are inducting Super Sukhoi's for this job. Su-30mki itself in future will able to carry 3 Brahmos-M which will be enough. And it will also save the money which we will have to pay to France then, for adapting it with Rafale. And before showing the size of Indian ocean, get an official figure of Rafale's range in Indian condition and not to forget the configuration. Though Rafale range is more than LCA, the different in fuel fraction is not much. So stop claiming sky's and mountain's when in original it might not be more than a few storied building.

Brahmos isn't meant for deep strike. It is a tactical weapon.

Who has described/defined this classification. It's the role that they will perform which is destroying enemy's command post, etc which both can do. Stop propagating.

Su-30 has a different role. Tasking is different, it is dependent on equipment.

What do you mean by different here, that's is what I asked. Still you failed to define this different. There is no mission parameter, which Su-30mki can't perform which Rafale can. One of another propaganda which is an outcome of lobbying and stupid journalism.

Rafale has already achieved IOC and FOC. Even the radar has achieved FOC. Now, where is LCA? Even Mk1 has not received FOC. Mk2 is not even flying. So, what's that nonsense about getting 300 LCAs?

Please care to mention the IOC & FOC parameters of Rafale and how Rafale performed in Indian weather condition. If you don't have these figures, then you don't have any right of criticizing LCA compared to Rafale where all the test parameters of LCA are available in public and all of those parameters are from performance in Indian condition. There are more than 200 J-10 with PLAAF, just go and check when did they achieve IOC & FOC, and compare that with their date of induction.

Whether the radar in LCA is totally indigenous or not is not the point if discussion here, till it is available. And for your information, radar is ready and the nose cone need to redesign with quartz. And if ordered today all the fighters will not be available next day, it is true even for Rafale. But if the order is increased, bigger investment can be done to fast process it like an additional production facility can be set-up.


[/QUOTE]SCB technology for AL-31FP was transferred. We only source raw materials from Russia due to contract obligations. We can make spares from Indian raw materials. Radar source code was transferred many years ago. Indian companies supply the display systems. It is made by SAMTEL. Without any of these it is impossible to integrate our own weapons by ourselves. Why don't people understand this fact? It is so simple. [/QUOTE]

People like you only understand this. Knowledge of Metallurgy is much more important than SCB technology for engine, which was never transferred. I agree that Samtel is supplying the display system of Su-30mki, but have tried to learn, whether they are writing the codes. I uses HP laptop, does that mean the intel chip has been designed by HP and HP has written the source codes of MS-Office which all of us uses.

Radar ToT is 60% for Rafale. This is minimum. Beyond that we many not need more. It is still too early to talk about how much we are getting. HAL won't take 15 years to learn because the Rafale program itself won't take that long. HAL will have to learn everything by the time the 4th phase starts because that's when the first indigenous Rafale will be made. That could happen well before 2020.

From where you got this figure of 60%. And if it is indeed 60%, then we all have another 100 reasons to scrape this deal as this ensures no transfer of critical technology. Do you even know how TOT works. And asking HAL to grasp all this technology in next 5 years is foolishness, probably you think TOT is a cup of tea which you can drink and be ready to roll out indigenous product. It's like asking a student of 5th standard to complete

2060 is what the IAF said. Not me. We are still using Mig-29 and Mirage-2000. They were inducted in the '80s and will be used up to 2030. That's 50 years. More than what's for Rafale. And Rafale has much longer service life than either the Mig-29 or the Mirage-2000.

Amazing. Your ability to fart is astounding.

The Rafale As Canada's Next Fighter – Part 3 | Ottawa Citizen


It gets annoying when people post whatever the heck they want without any thought or reason.

We are using Mig 29 & Mirage 2000 because in 80's they were termed as 4th gen and today after 30 years it is possible to upgrade them to 4.5th gen fighter by upgrading their avionics, engine, mission control system, etc. But it will not be possible to upgrade 4.5th gen fighter to 5th gen 20 years from now. 5th gen fighter are/will be in completely separate class. Thus, we will have no option but to phase out this expensive toys.

Whatever I say, I support it will logical reasoning, not like you who keep babbling without any facts. You couldn't prove any of my point wrong with logical reasoning and just to take the discussion into new direction, made some new claims without any facts or logical figure.

So if I fart, then you are not good enough even for it's smell.

And Sukhoi's availability is much higher.

Malaysia Invests In Sukhoi Fighter Readiness | Aviation International News


It's funny when a small air force that has to send their aircraft to foreign countries for servicing has such a high availability demand, suddenly it is the exact opposite for the IAF when spares and support comes from within the country.

And Sukhoi's availability is much higher. Certainly. I didn't say that Sukhoi's availability is 44%, but I said it can't be less than that as Rafale's availability is only 44%(as per French Air Force official claim) even when it is newly inducted, just to imagine what will happen once it is 15 years old. This again tilt the favour in scrapping TR

Avionics evolve every few years. And Rafale is completely modular in nature. For eg: If there is something wrong with the engine, in case of LCA they have to replace the entire engine, but in case of Rafale they just have to replace the problematic module. The engine has some 20+ modules and they can all be removed without having to remove the engine itself.

In the future, both IAF and ALA will work together on the Rafale for upgrades. Meaning, the two air forces will decide what's required for MLU to make the aircraft better.

We will be inducting Rafale at the same time when LCA Mk2 will be seeing its first flight. IAF wants the big bird in the hand, not that half plucked chicken in the bush. The IAF ex-Air Chief already explained they don't need more MKIs. I don't know why this is so hard to grasp.

Who told you the above crap about Rafale's engine being modular LCA's not. Moreover the engine which is powering or will power LCA is the most reliable engine in the world today. So stop making things of your own. Again did ALA or IAF told you how they will function in future and about their joint effort. No reality in any of these statement.

It has lesser operating cost compared to the MKI, not LCA. The rest is crap you made up.

May be. But no one can say these with surety. IAF officials first time in their life tried to understand the operating cost for MMRCA deal and they agreed that it's reliability can be given. And also that comparison was done between Eurofighter and Rafale. And they feel that Rafale operating cost will be cheaper but as per that you can't say it will be lower than Su-30mki.

One thing about Rafale as per operating cost is concerned that it will consume lesser fuel than Su-30mki for the same distance covered. But if it's availability is lower than Su-30mki, which means higher break-down Rafale's operating cost might turn out to be higher than Su-30mki.

And more importantly, in my post there were many important parameters I had covered to prove that Rafale deal is futile for us which you have very clearly omitted.

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

Google the size and area of the Indian Ocean and get back to me. Read up on what our service chiefs mean when they talk about "from Malacca Straits to the Persian Gulf." At the same time look up the Chinese map. Google the military regions of China and see where the headquarters are located at. Looking at Pakistan only is being myopic. Also look up why all air forces have started giving a lot of importance to deep strike.

before trying to dominate areas from mallaca straits to persian gulf (which can easily be done by Su-30 MKI with mighty brahmos addition)with 20 billion dollar 6 squadron rafale fleet. The immediate worry is to replace the 14 obsolete squadrons of IAF's 34 squadrons(improving IAF's strength to sanctioned 45 squadrons are long forgotten by every one ) with a fighter that is above the level of mirage-2000 (in tejas mk-1)in close combat (and at the same level of Gripen E in mk-2) is the pressing concern for IAF.

Then why the two rafales with three huge external tanks and no weapons needed five refuelling from tankers to cross the 10000 Km distance in a 10 hour flight from France to reunion island.
If we take into account it had full fuel from take off, then 10000/6=1500 Km is the simple ferry range for a flight with no weapons and huge external fuel tanks. tell me how rafale will dominate mallaca straight with weapons commensurate for its 200 million dollar price tag without the help of refuelling tankers?

If it does so without weapons with wea

If we buy enough tanker fleet even mk2 tejas can easily safeguard areas from mallaca straits to persian gulf with enough money to spare for increasing tIAf fleet to 45 sanctioned squadrons

Rafale will use a combination of flight tactics, terrain and EW to mask itself.

Same tactics will beused by tejas mk1, mk2 and Super Sukhois, close to the ground flying, Ew suits.

but what about the SAAB early warning crafts in PAF/ No way a rafale with such huge external loads will disappear from it and that of patrolling PAF fighters simultaneously even in close to the ground flying.
So issues faced by all the fighters are the same here.rafale has no silver bullet.

Brahmos isn't meant for deep strike. It is a tactical weapon.

SO IAF SU-30 MKI equipped with brahmos just a tactical fighter and has no strategic use. But storm shadow equipped rafale is strategic. How come?

Su-30 has a different role. Tasking is different, it is dependent on equipment.

Have you ever thought how LCA will perform a recce mission from Kalaikunda to Nicobar with its crappy range? Do you know why it is the MKI which is equipped with EL/M 2060P pods and not Mirage-2000s or Mig-29s? And LCA isn't a first day of war fighter anyway. Disputing that is like advertising you don't know anything about the capabilities of the LCA.

SU-30 MKI can do that and we are not spending 20 billion dollars for a recce to nicobar. And tejas mk2 will come very close to rafale range.
Most of the wars fought by india are hot rolling borders war, where we need as many fighters up in air at the same time to support our forces, rather than doing recce from kalikunda to Nicobar.If recce is such a need just buy a couple of squadrons of rafales like Mirage-2000 buy. Who invests 20 billion dollar for recce fighter?

LCA (the two TDs) may not be fit for any warfighting on any day. But tejas will fight wars from the first day. Deployed at frontline bases in rajasthan tejas is not going to sit idle even in the 124 reduced numbers.

And what is it your fanatic obsession in continuing with the same name LCA , despite being reminded many times by many members that it was renamed Tejas long back?

Rafale has already achieved IOC and FOC. Even the radar has achieved FOC. Now, where is LCA? Even Mk1 has not received FOC. Mk2 is not even flying. So, what's that nonsense about getting 300 LCAs?

100 F-35s have arrived in USAF with no IOC. Just read that only now F-35 has been cleared for 3.2 gs and 1.6 mach in USAF.
So 300 tejas makes sense. Spending 20 billion dollars for recce fighter is nonsense.

SCB technology for AL-31FP was transferred. We only source raw materials from Russia due to contract obligations. We can make spares from Indian raw materials. Radar source code was transferred many years ago. Indian companies supply the display systems. It is made by SAMTEL. Without any of these it is impossible to integrate our own weapons by ourselves. Why don't people understand this fact? It is so simple.

http://idrw.org/?p=41266
If all the tech are in HAL.Why is IAF asking the russians for the problems on Su-30 MKI. Just read that instead of 3000 flight hours IAf now REBUILDS each AL-31 engines in just 700 hours and desperately seeking russian help on their repeated failures.

IAF is desperate to relieve this engine problem.SO who told you HAL got the tech for SCB?

With such unreliable fleet is it fair to spend 20 billion dollar for 6 squadrons of recce fighters?

Radar ToT is 60% for Rafale. This is minimum. Beyond that we many not need more. It is still too early to talk about how much we are getting. HAL won't take 15 years to learn because the Rafale program itself won't take that long. HAL will have to learn everything by the time the 4th phase starts because that's when the first indigenous Rafale will be made. That could happen well before 2020.

100 percent screw driver tech , with full tech to make all the non critical item, a waste of time these TOTs. HAL can hold the hand of Dassault to grave . Nothing useful will appear from this courtship.

2060 is what the IAF said. Not me. We are still using Mig-29 and Mirage-2000. They were inducted in the '80s and will be used up to 2030. That's 50 years. More than what's for Rafale. And Rafale has much longer service life than either the Mig-29 or the Mirage-2000.

With upgrades and spares we will spend more than 50 billion plus if we keep them till 2060.Just for 6 squads.

Amazing. Your ability to fart is astounding.

Your ability to stoop to lowest possible debating level is never surprising. And standing calmly by your exposed lies like tejas will cost more than 162 crores as declared by HAL since it is ADA which buys the engine is astounding. So never be surprised about someone's ability to fart

The Rafale As Canada's Next Fighter – Part 3 | Ottawa Citizen


It gets annoying when people post whatever the heck they want without any thought or reason.

And Sukhoi's availability is much higher.

Malaysia Invests In Sukhoi Fighter Readiness | Aviation International News


It's funny when a small air force that has to send their aircraft to foreign countries for servicing has such a high availability demand, suddenly it is the exact opposite for the IAF when spares and support comes from within the country.



Avionics evolve every few years. And Rafale is completely modular in nature. For eg: If there is something wrong with the engine, in case of LCA they have to replace the entire engine, but in case of Rafale they just have to replace the problematic module. The engine has some 20+ modules and they can all be removed without having to remove the engine itself.

Tejas too is completely modular and indian too. It already has HMDS and higher diameter radome to fit any larger upgraded ASEA radar later a significant advantage over rafale.Engines of tejas too are from GE not some RD-93.

In the future, both IAF and ALA will work together on the Rafale for upgrades. Meaning, the two air forces will decide what's required for MLU to make the aircraft better.

Ofcourse with no other airforce for company and with huge costs. Spending close to 50 to 60 billion dollars till 2060 for just 6 squads with no hope of reaching its sanctioned 45 squad strength in near future.

We will be inducting Rafale at the same time when LCA Mk2 will be seeing its first flight. IAF wants the big bird in the hand, not that half plucked chicken in the bush. The IAF ex-Air Chief already explained they don't need more MKIs. I don't know why this is so hard to grasp.

Big bird in hand and forget all the obsolete 14 squads of Mig and jags. And completely forgettingits aim to reach sanctioned strength of 45 squads to meet any eventuality of rolling border wars!!! That does not sound like Indian Airforce, Imported airforce is the right word!!!!

It has lesser operating cost compared to the MKI, not LCA. The rest is crap you made up.

Cost of rafale with no development cost is 95 million per piece till date.
cost of rafale with development cost is 127 million per piece, with a huge indian order it may drop to 117 million dollar piece at the most.(from information given to french parliamnet with the deduction of VAT)
These are all for rafales not in F-3 standards asked for by IAF. SO cost will go up further.
And TOT cost will add further up,(if we go by Su-30 MKI analogy local manufacture has no way reduced the cost even for 272 order number)
And indian requirement for russian weapons and HMDS will add some more.
training , very costly french weapons will add some more
SO 150 millions per piece is nothing unrealistic, even though not accurate.

If we add spares, support, and very costly upgrades(going by Mirage-2000 experience)
there is nothing substantially wrong in author's claim of 200 plus million dollar per piece for rafale.

 

[Anony86]

Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

the libiyan AD Asserts

www.ausairpower.net/PDF-A/DT-Libya-Jun-2011.pdf

Syrian IDAS

https://csis.org/publication/syrias-uncertain-air-defense-capabilities


compare with Pakistan AD

www.claws.in/images/journals_doc/SW J.99-106.pdf



We know Chinese operating more number of HQ 9 System comparable to S 300

If you read your link carefully, you will understand that all these missiles were fired from more than 500km initially, until air-defence systems were not destroyed. And NATO launched a flood of cruise missiles. So if one has to launch a missile from more than 500 km or 300km, why the induct Rafale for that, even Jaguar will be good for it.

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

^^^


I wouldn't believe such assessment and will never back down my figure of 300Km combat radius with two 1200ltr tanks..


waiting for more credible source to Change my Views

Then why the two rafales with three huge external tanks and no weapons needed five refuelling from tankers to cross the 10000 Km distance in a 10 hour flight from France to reunion island.
If we take into account it had full fuel from take off, then 10000/6=1500 Km is the simple ferry range for a flight with no weapons and huge external fuel tanks. tell me how rafale will dominate mallaca straight with weapons commensurate for its 200 million dollar price tag without the help of refuelling tankers in case it simultaneously carries air to air missiles and heavy anti ship missile?

Also according to flight global the SAAB claim for gripen E with six air to air missiles is just 1300 Km flight with 20 minutes loiter time.

So tejas combat radius of 500 km with penetration flight profile, AB thrust and close combat needs factored in tejas mk1 itself is good enough. It comes to above 1000 Km without the validation of center line fuel tank in IOC-2.

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

@p2prada
Would you mind further clarifying the following points.
1. Reverse engineering is an act of illegality yet all great and aspiring powers have done it in future. Because reinventing wheel all the way isn't a smart way after all. Then why are we or for how far long will we remain afraid and shy away from such attempts ?
2. We modify MKI and do not buy Su 35 or say Rafale because as of now we have already taken TOT on MKI and as of now no serious study has taken place ( that we are aware of) which shows that MKI can't get modified to serve the purpose of Rafale to large extent. Then why do we buy Rafale?
3. Since the technology obtained under ToT can't be used on other projects then why exactly we get it to begin with ? Starting from the old days Chinese modified each and everything they bought from international market with varied success but at least they tried and nicely got away. Russians are desperate for Indian money. As long as they are getting big orders they wont mind Indians playing a little foul here and there. It isn't that ... it is actually the spineless clueless Indian decision makers with pathetic management skills and only 2nd tier scientists and technicians that the gov research facilities boast off . Still best guys are not well paid in India and prefer working abroad.
4. What spare support has gotta do with ToT? For different migs ( excluding 29 ) we had high degree of ToT . Even that has been the case with Jaguar . Yet we are still fond of the grey market and begging process. Even after producing mig 27 in dozens of numbers for decades HAL couldn't complete a decent upgrade on time and only ended up wasting millions in the name of modification. We signed the MKI contract in 2000 then got our first delivery in 2004 and now its 2014 and we are still wrestling for ToT. And if one tries to be logical the situation shouldn't be anything different for Rafale as well.
5. Many people think science and technology can be done teaching by spoon feeding and hand holding but it can't be farther from the truth. BY discipline practice and good guidance a lousy mechanic and get better and more efficient but can never turn into an engineer. Defence technologies are the culminations of the bests of every field. It involves the so called "extreme technologies" which can push the limits. India simply do not have the industrial or even technological base to under take a highly sophisticated project such as Rafale. Indian think tanks neither have the will not the vision to go out of the way and hire the best Indian brains by paying extra. Just as the saying goes " If you pay peanuts you only get monkeys ". No amount of ToT can ever groom a top class scientist out of a mediocrity.
6. I didn't know If AIF called the eco core obsolete but they wanted to go with kabini core for some reason...I though may be price issue. can you provide me a link on this plz.
7. Obsolescence is more or less a marketing gimmick. If AL-31FP is obsolete then entire Chinese Airforce is a bunch of cave men. Just having something more advance does not necessarily make the previous generation obsolete. More often that not technology move on to the next level without exploiting the past generations to its fullest. That's the job of developers. The fact that there is no inter agency technology sharing in India is not because we are angels and do not do wrongs by violating protocols rather because guys are just not smart enough and do not understand the technology well enough to pass it on to someone else.
6. I agree with you, ToT in a country such as India is absolutely waste of money ..
7. India on per with USA ? well no comments on that. What ever little I know says that variable cycle engine technologies are dated back to 1980's. Yes some serious optimisations are going on and as far as I know Russia in no where in the contention where from the Indians will join the party?
8. The Indian people who works on the old technology will deliver advanced products after 15/20 years ? Well this sounds like saying that a student who never went through the classical mechanics thoroughly will teach me about quantum field theory after 20 years. Science & tech can never ever happen this way. Unless Indains are aliens.
9 By the way that 44% availability of Rafale as mentioned by Anony86 is not his own crap at least. It is the revelation of StratPost vids.

China is trying to reverse engineer AL-31 engines for decades!!!!

No way any one can master the complex trial and error based design and metallurgy process for SCBs.

No nation will sell their aeronautic soul for 126 fighter deal as dassault or Sukhoi in 272 fighter deal as claimed by people here.

 

[Ripples]

Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

China is trying to reverse engineer AL-31 engines for decades!!!!

No way any one can master the complex trial and error based design and metallurgy process for SCBs.

No nation will sell their aeronautic soul for 126 fighter deal as dassault or Sukhoi in 272 fighter deal as claimed by people here.

I was never inferring that ToT on SU 30mki is a technology on silver platter for India rather I am well aware of the fact that India is still far away from a genuinely 100% indigenous production of mkis. But given to the fact that HAL has been dealing with MKIs for more than a decade now it should be an easier platform to test their skill and understanding. China will certainly make it sooner and better simply because their investment in basic and fundamental science is also quiet proportionate compared to their investments in defence. This is where India is lagging far behind. In nano technology , metallurgy, solid state physics , laser technology Chinese are by far ahead of us and owing to their economic might and much more capable management such gaps will only widen faster than we expect. Only advantage that we had until about a couple of decades ago was on theoretical front and due to our inept politicians that little advantages are also eroded and now the quality of works presented by recent generation Indian scientists(I don't know about other streams but in theoretical physics and applied maths it is certainly the scenario ) are degrading rapidly. @ersakthivel

 

[Jagdish58]

Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

China is trying to reverse engineer AL-31 engines for decades!!!!

No way any one can master the complex trial and error based design and metallurgy process for SCBs.

No nation will sell their aeronautic soul for 126 fighter deal as dassault or Sukhoi in 272 fighter deal as claimed by people here.

Agreed on no country will sell the technology at any cost i meant 100% , i feel hard to understand Rafale M-88 engine has after burning thrust of 75Kn but Kaveri with kabini core went upto
81Kn , but we went to Snecma for upgrading kaveri with Smecma core which is installed in M-88:shocked:

DRDO::Major Products and Technologies

Agreed 81KN is not enough for LCA Mk2 , but is that not good enough to test in LCA TD aircraft with flew in 2001 ??

What is the issues hindering the Kaveri to upgrade to 100KN or more??? Even AMCA will go for new engine as per Mr. Tamilmani , Will kaveri ever installed in a fighter plane???

 

[p2prada]

Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

@p2prada
Would you mind further clarifying the following points.
1. Reverse engineering is an act of illegality yet all great and aspiring powers have done it in future. Because reinventing wheel all the way isn't a smart way after all. Then why are we or for how far long will we remain afraid and shy away from such attempts ?

Reverse engineering keeps you behind by a generation. There is no point in reverse engineering the MKI when we can instead launch a JV with Russia for FGFA.

We do some amount of reverse engineering, but it is not system wide.

2. We modify MKI and do not buy Su 35 or say Rafale because as of now we have already taken TOT on MKI and as of now no serious study has taken place ( that we are aware of) which shows that MKI can't get modified to serve the purpose of Rafale to large extent. Then why do we buy Rafale?

We don't need more MKIs. That's already been established. So modifying MKIs is useless.

Video: Vayu-StratPost Air Power Roundtable II | StratPost

'Why can't you buy more of the Su-30s'. Now you can't put all your eggs in one basket – strategically, it's unwise. That's one of the primary reasons. And therefore you created this Medium Multi role Combat Aircraft (competition) which is 30 tons and below. – Air Marshal (retd) M Matheswaran

The point of the MMRCA was to not rely on Russia.

3. Since the technology obtained under ToT can't be used on other projects then why exactly we get it to begin with ? Starting from the old days Chinese modified each and everything they bought from international market with varied success but at least they tried and nicely got away. Russians are desperate for Indian money. As long as they are getting big orders they wont mind Indians playing a little foul here and there. It isn't that ... it is actually the spineless clueless Indian decision makers with pathetic management skills and only 2nd tier scientists and technicians that the gov research facilities boast off . Still best guys are not well paid in India and prefer working abroad.

China is stupidly rich, has a lot of leverage over Russia and is one of the P5. India is not in such a comfortable position. It's like saying, "Why am I in jail for the same crime when the politician's son got away with it?"

China copied Russia's old Flanker and they lost Sukhoi's business. At the same time China has signed two major deals with Russia for oil and gas for $300 Billion and $400 Billion.

And it is pointless to reverse engineer jets. Better to have JVs which are working out in our favor in practically every department. Why reverse engineer MKI when we can buy and sell FGFA?

4. What spare support has gotta do with ToT? For different migs ( excluding 29 ) we had high degree of ToT .

We had no ToT for Mig-29. It was a direct purchase.

Even that has been the case with Jaguar . Yet we are still fond of the grey market and begging process. Even after producing mig 27 in dozens of numbers for decades HAL couldn't complete a decent upgrade on time and only ended up wasting millions in the name of modification. We signed the MKI contract in 2000 then got our first delivery in 2004 and now its 2014 and we are still wrestling for ToT. And if one tries to be logical the situation shouldn't be anything different for Rafale as well.

The upgrade failure of the Mig-27 was more to do with bad planning than lack of technology. CAG didn't find it wise for the IAF to upgrade the jet when they plan to retire in half a decade.

We aren't wrestling for ToT on the MKI. We already got it. Our first jet and first engine were both ready in 2010.

Anyway,
The Su-30MKI Info Page - Vayu Sena

The deal combines license production with full technology transfer and hence called a 'Deep License'.

5. Many people think science and technology can be done teaching by spoon feeding and hand holding but it can't be farther from the truth. BY discipline practice and good guidance a lousy mechanic and get better and more efficient but can never turn into an engineer. Defence technologies are the culminations of the bests of every field. It involves the so called "extreme technologies" which can push the limits. India simply do not have the industrial or even technological base to under take a highly sophisticated project such as Rafale. Indian think tanks neither have the will not the vision to go out of the way and hire the best Indian brains by paying extra. Just as the saying goes " If you pay peanuts you only get monkeys ". No amount of ToT can ever groom a top class scientist out of a mediocrity.

Oh, we can't license produce a fully developed aircraft while you think we can develop LCA from scratch?

6. I didn't know If AIF called the eco core obsolete but they wanted to go with kabini core for some reason...I though may be price issue. can you provide me a link on this plz.

It wasn't worth the money to pursue the ECO core when DRDO could develop it on its own. What IAF needs is a new generation engine and they also want DRDO to continue to develop Kaveri.

7. Obsolescence is more or less a marketing gimmick. If AL-31FP is obsolete then entire Chinese Airforce is a bunch of cave men. Just having something more advance does not necessarily make the previous generation obsolete.

That's how it works. Large projects have large gestation periods. So, they get obsolete quickly. While upgrades take care of some levels of obsolescence, it doesn't take care of the entire problem. The F-15 had become obsolete in 1996, but countries still continue to purchase it even today.

6. I agree with you, ToT in a country such as India is absolutely waste of money ..

What? No. You did not understand what I was saying. ToT is extremely important for India.

7. India on per with USA ? well no comments on that. What ever little I know says that variable cycle engine technologies are dated back to 1980's. Yes some serious optimisations are going on and as far as I know Russia in no where in the contention where from the Indians will join the party?

Variable cycle engines are older than that. The F120 engine for YF-23 was a VCE. They rejected it due to costs and complexity.

8. The Indian people who works on the old technology will deliver advanced products after 15/20 years ? Well this sounds like saying that a student who never went through the classical mechanics thoroughly will teach me about quantum field theory after 20 years. Science & tech can never ever happen this way. Unless
Indains are aliens.

This is how it happens. You don't make a product until you have the relevant technologies, until then you make experimental products. GTRE has worked on experimental engines for decades now. They didn't just jump to Kaveri from scratch.

Even other industries make such experimental prototypes.

This is a list of experimental aircraft from the US.
List of X-planes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

9 By the way that 44% availability of Rafale as mentioned by Anony86 is not his own crap at least. It is the revelation of StratPost vids.

Stratpost is an Indian website, where did they get French data from?

Journos are not always right. And nobody even replied to his query. It was the same with that "sadly we haven't achieved that... something something" for MKI's raw materials stage production when more official sources point to the opposite. Not everybody is always properly briefed and mistakes do happen. The fact is Phase IV production is small with only 60 jets out of the 272, the rest are all fly away, SKDs and CKDs. People will get confused when we say we manufacture MKIs from scratch but the latest contract for 42 jets is just CKDs.

That 44% availability figure may have been true, but may have been for a very specific cause. We don't know the entire story. It may have been for just a squadron, it may have been for one particular base which didn't get spares delivered in time. These things happen. When the MKI's HUD black out happened, you can say the entire squadron was unavailable. So, this adds to the unavailability.

The fact is the Rafale's availability in conflict zones and exercises has always been above 90%, and this is what's important. While exercises have small number of aircraft, the Libya war wasn't a small operation. After a war, aircraft become less available anyway because they need to undergo repairs, overhauls and modifications.

 

[p2prada]

Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

So, you want to say that EW system of Rafale will block/jam the huge radar of PLAN warships. It's childish. Moreover we are inducting Super Sukhoi's for this job. Su-30mki itself in future will able to carry 3 Brahmos-M which will be enough. And it will also save the money which we will have to pay to France then, for adapting it with Rafale. And before showing the size of Indian ocean, get an official figure of Rafale's range in Indian condition and not to forget the configuration. Though Rafale range is more than LCA, the different in fuel fraction is not much. So stop claiming sky's and mountain's when in original it might not be more than a few storied building.

Keep Sukhoi out of it! How many times do I keep repeating the same thing???

This is between LCA and Rafale. I have already posted quotes from the Air Chief who said we don't need more MKI. It is simple English, try to understand simple statements. The air force has made it very very clear we don't need more MKIs.

We have only 1000 Brahmos, we need something like 10000-50000 LGBs, and even this is not enough. We can't afford 50000 Brahmos.

Who has described/defined this classification. It's the role that they will perform which is destroying enemy's command post, etc which both can do. Stop propagating.

It has limited range, just 300 Km. And it is very few in numbers. Deep strike is conducted by missiles in the 1000-3000 Km range, or aircraft that can fly that far in.

Deep strike changes based on terrain. Against Pakistan, deep strike is just a few hundred Km and Brahmos is enough for that, but not against China and not in the IOR.

What do you mean by different here, that's is what I asked. Still you failed to define this different. There is no mission parameter, which Su-30mki can't perform which Rafale can. One of another propaganda which is an outcome of lobbying and stupid journalism.

I have already explained it before. Rafale is designed for generating more sorties, MKI is not. Sortie rates affect mission planning and tactical mobility. Depending on that different missions are performed. For eg: LCA can also generate more sorties than MKI, but it has limited range, so it will be used for air policing missions close to bases. The MKI will fly just once a day and perform OCA/DCA etc in enemy air space. Rafales can use their greater sorties rates to drop bombs, return to base, rearm and repeat. So, all of their roles are spelled out. During wartime sortie rates of each jet increase.

MKIs can do what Rafale can and viceversa, but as already explained, IAF wants something other than MKI. And LCA is not the answer, so only Rafale is that answer.

Please care to mention the IOC & FOC parameters of Rafale and how Rafale performed in Indian weather condition. If you don't have these figures, then you don't have any right of criticizing LCA compared to Rafale where all the test parameters of LCA are available in public and all of those parameters are from performance in Indian condition. There are more than 200 J-10 with PLAAF, just go and check when did they achieve IOC & FOC, and compare that with their date of induction.

You are worried about Rafale performing in Indian conditions? Do you even know how hot Libya is? The hottest regions in the world is Sub-Saharan Africa. Rafale easily exceeds Indian requirements by the mere fact that it is a carrier aircraft. Hot and humid? Don't make me laugh. You don't know the first thing about hot and humid.

Whether the radar in LCA is totally indigenous or not is not the point if discussion here, till it is available. And for your information, radar is ready and the nose cone need to redesign with quartz. And if ordered today all the fighters will not be available next day, it is true even for Rafale. But if the order is increased, bigger investment can be done to fast process it like an additional production facility can be set-up.

Radar design stage has not even started. What's ready today is a planar array made by LRDE. And integration of BVR weapons is still going on. AESA is still very far away.

First LCA has to fly and clear all tests before it can start production.

From where you got this figure of 60%.

From Thales.

And if it is indeed 60%, then we all have another 100 reasons to scrape this deal as this ensures no transfer of critical technology. Do you even know how TOT works. And asking HAL to grasp all this technology in next 5 years is foolishness, probably you think TOT is a cup of tea which you can drink and be ready to roll out indigenous product. It's like asking a student of 5th standard to complete

How about simply waiting and watching?

We are using Mig 29 & Mirage 2000 because in 80's they were termed as 4th gen and today after 30 years it is possible to upgrade them to 4.5th gen fighter by upgrading their avionics, engine, mission control system, etc. But it will not be possible to upgrade 4.5th gen fighter to 5th gen 20 years from now. 5th gen fighter are/will be in completely separate class. Thus, we will have no option but to phase out this expensive toys.

4th gen, 4.5th gen, 5th gen are simply numbers to you. What matters more is the specs of the aircraft.

A 4.5th gen LCA is no match to the Rafale, same as a 2nd gen Mig-21FL is no match to the 4th gen Mig-21 Bison. Specs change based on how much you invest.

The French have spent Billions on Rafale, we haven't spent that much on LCA.

Whatever I say, I support it will logical reasoning, not like you who keep babbling without any facts. You couldn't prove any of my point wrong with logical reasoning and just to take the discussion into new direction, made some new claims without any facts or logical figure.

Your logical reasoning is as logical as a chimp dancing on a keyboard.

Who told you the above crap about Rafale's engine being modular LCA's not.

It is clear you don't know anything about Rafale. Google is your friend.

Moreover the engine which is powering or will power LCA is the most reliable engine in the world today. So stop making things of your own.

The LCA's engine is the most ancient one available today. It has been in production since the early '90s. It is nowhere as reliable as M88-4E. M88 is a new gen engine.

Again did ALA or IAF told you how they will function in future and about their joint effort. No reality in any of these statement.

Trappier already announced that the MLU of Rafale will be done together with the IAF. Since you know nothing about Dassault or Rafale let me inform you that he is the CEO of Dassault.

May be. But no one can say these with surety. IAF officials first time in their life tried to understand the operating cost for MMRCA deal and they agreed that it's reliability can be given. And also that comparison was done between Eurofighter and Rafale. And they feel that Rafale operating cost will be cheaper but as per that you can't say it will be lower than Su-30mki.

MKI costs more in operation and lifecycle costs than Rafale.

And more importantly, in my post there were many important parameters I had covered to prove that Rafale deal is futile for us which you have very clearly omitted.

Those many important parameters were just nonsense, so I truncated them. The same with this post, you make up shit as you go along so I didn't bother to correct them.

First go to proper websites and learn about Rafale. Go through the Know your Rafale thread. Update your knowledge first and then come back. I can't keep arguing with people who claim Maruti 800 is better than BMW M5 simply because they don't know jack shit about the BMW.

 

[jalsa]

Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

@p2prada Its a bit OT, but you said our FGFA will have "plasma stealth". I have doubts about its feasibility as the power requirements will be very high and plasma shield means effective communication black-out, can you please elaborate?

 

[p2prada]

Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

@p2prada Its a bit OT, but you said our FGFA will have "plasma stealth". I have doubts about its feasibility as the power requirements will be very high and plasma shield means effective communication black-out, can you please elaborate?

The reason is because this was mentioned in an interview by a pretty important person.

I don't know how they plan on utilizing plasma properly. What has been mentioned is they will use plasma in the radome. Radar can be a large RCS generator, so they place the radar in an angle to reflect off incident waves. Now, I have no idea how plasma comes into the picture here. And I am pretty sure we are not going to know anything about the Russian techniques for a few more decades.

What is understood is modern aircraft have RAM coatings both outside and inside aircraft. Composites in particular allow some levels of passage of radio waves through their skin. So, these waves then bounce off metal parts inside the aircraft and generate returns. To avoid that, they apply RAM coatings so the waves are destroyed inside the aircraft. I bet you already know this.

Now, you should also consider that RAM paints are heavy, they can add many hundreds of Kgs to the aircraft's empty weight. To avoid that, it is possible to use plasma inside the aircraft's structure instead of RAM. This is probably how it works inside the radome. Now, plasma can be very light in comparison and perhaps much better at absorption compared to RAM. The huge amount of fuel in the aircraft will help dissipate heat generated from destroying radar waves.

As for communication blackout, the plasma doesn't need to cover antennas that perform communication functions. These areas can be covered with RAM paints instead of plasma.

About the radome, now you will say that using plasma in front of the radar would mean you cannot use the radar. This can be taken care of by using tactics. You can have some aircraft with their radars on while the aircraft making the kill can have plasma in their radome to further reduce RCS and go radar silent. This way they can fire their missiles after going close enough while the emitting aircraft are far away, safe and sound, directing the missile towards the target.

As for power requirements, @SATISH mentioned that the Russians tested a 100 KW device on a Tu-160 a decade ago. Maybe older jets cannot power it, but it is possible PAKFA can. It is already known that PAKFA generates twice as much power as older jets, that's easily around 150-200 KVA of analog power.

You can treat this plasma thing as speculation at best until there is more information. There could be stuff on PAKFA and F-22 that the civilian circle may have no idea about, let alone plasma stealth.

 

[HMS Astute]

Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

nobody wants to operate rafale expect the french. this aircraft has been struggling to find the customers outside of france. brazil also doesn't want it.

but why is india buying it when nobody wants it?

 

[Illusive]

Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

nobody wants to operate rafale expect the french. this aircraft has been struggling to find the customers outside of france. brazil also doesn't want it.

but why is india buying it when nobody wants it?

Its very expensive, UAE is a potential customer after India. As for Brazil it was a wise decision because their threat perception is very low, they have a friendly neighborhood. India needs a capable platform to deal with the Chinese huge airforce. India didn't go for typhoons cause it was more expensive to operate than rafales which is of similar capability.