Altay Tank - The New Beast on the block!

[Damian]

it is old post. I stand correct, but then again, the reasons of rejection of M1A1 in Pakistan are still fairy tales, and it seems that Pakistani army have completely unrealistic requirements, at least you Pakistanis says so.

Stucking in mud or water, nothing special and weight have nothing to do with it, even lighter vehicles have problems to get out on their own.

T-80U have the same weight as Pakistani T-80UD's, as we can see it needs help to get out of mud that is not especially deep either.

M2A2, 30 tons weight, still can stuck in mud.

M60A1 or M60A3, still weighting only 55 tons, can stuck in mud.

Merkava Mk3D... obvious.

Leopard 1, weighting 42 tons, still stuck in water and mud.

So Pakistani conditions are nothing special, in fact in Europe or other parts of the world we have similiar surprises for AFV's crews, and weight have nothing to do with them.

So it only shows how incompetent Pakistani Army was in understanding the characteristics of vehicle, environement and what can happen if driver and TC ---- up navigation in terrain.

 

[farhan_9909]

it is old post. I stand correct, but then again, the reasons of rejection of M1A1 in Pakistan are still fairy tales, and it seems that Pakistani army have completely unrealistic requirements, at least you Pakistanis says so.

well as per some pakistani sources on pakdef.initially pak wanted to buy german tanks but germany refused to supply(because of india revealing the kirana hills test info which lead world wide sanction on pakistan)

the reason t-80ud from ukraine were bought.if india would have not revealed the kirana hills info.we could have bought leopard.we had alot of funds that time

I will disclose the name of the source: Rommel from pakdef

 

[Damian]

well as per some pakistani sources on pakdef.initially pak wanted to buy german tanks but germany refused to supply(because of india revealing the kirana hills test info which lead world wide sanction on pakistan)

the reason t-80ud from ukraine were bought.if india would have not revealed the kirana hills info.we could have bought leopard.we had alot of funds that time

I will disclose the name of the source: Rommel from pakdef

Sorry, but you are very naive to believe someone on the internet forums, who do not use probably any hard proof source, for example a monography of Leopard 2, I have several, nowhere there is said that there were even attempts to sold Leopard 1 or Leopard 2 to Pakistan.

 

[farhan_9909]

Sorry, but you are very naive to believe someone on the internet forums, who do not use probably any hard proof source, for example a monography of Leopard 2, I have several, nowhere there is said that there were even attempts to sold Leopard 1 or Leopard 2 to Pakistan.

yes but he's a military officer.i don't know much more about him but he's in armed forces i do know

as reading the comments H khan told him that KSA didnt went for Ak because it had no AC..
he told him to wait for an hour and captured the pictures of AK interior..(i could not see the picture as i have no registration in that forum)
so he does has some internal links

though i don't have any other source to support this

 

[Damian]

yes but he's a military officer.i don't know much more about him but he's in armed forces i do know

Seriously, so when someone told he is a military officer, shows you a photo of random guy in uniform and you all the sudden believe him?

I can believe only people that have hard proofs of being in military, like some people from TankNet that can proove this (James Warford for example, his articles are in US Army ARMOR Magazine).

as reading the comments H khan told him that KSA didnt went for Ak because it had no AC..
he told him to wait for an hour and captured the pictures of AK interior..(i could not see the picture as i have no registration in that forum)
so he does has some internal links

though i don't have any other source to support this

So you see, no hard proof, argument is invalid.

 

[farhan_9909]

Seriously, so when someone told he is a military officer, shows you a photo of random guy in uniform and you all the sudden believe him?

I can believe only people that have hard proofs of being in military, like some people from TankNet that can proove this (James Warford for example, his articles are in US Army ARMOR Magazine).



So you see, no hard proof, argument is invalid.

anyway as i said before except him i don't have any source to suppport this claim

and it also doesnt makes any difference for us as if we had approached for leopard

 

[militarysta]

Any tests or sell Leoaprd-2 to Pakistan was inpossible due to very serious (for Germans and their Bundestag) problem: Human Rights . Even Turkey had some problem whit German and their human right obssesion.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

well i confirm that there was a documentary on gen zia's assasination on discovery where it clearly stated that on the day of his plane crash zia was invited to a demostation of m1a1 abrams tanks which failed miserably and could't hit even one target.

 

[Damian]

well i confirm that there was a documentary on gen zia's assasination on discovery where it clearly stated that on the day of his plane crash zia was invited to a demostation of m1a1 abrams tanks which failed miserably and could't hit even one target.

Do you know that Discovery Channel is literally piece of shit for any intelligent form of life?

No to mention that for gunner with even avarage training, missing all targets is immposible in M1A1. Had opportunity to learn how to operate this FCS on one of ESim company simulators (they are making simulators for military mainly), it is incredibly easy to learn after reading the manual, if you know what you do it is immposible to miss the target.

If such thing happend, and gunner was Pakistani, it means he didn't know what he was doing, I even know what could confuse the gunner, it is SAHA (Single Axis Head Assembly) for the main sight mirror, which means you have a floating crosshair when FCS adds dynamic lead to hit moving target or when M1 is one the move. If you didn't learn manual properly, and never trained, you will fail to familiarize yourself with this and in the end you will miss the target.

New FCS that had been added in M1A2 and modernized M1A1's, had new sights with DAHA (Double Axis Head Assembly) that works differently.

But as I said, after reading manual and some initial training on simulator, I was able to hit targets both stationary and on the move, this took my about 15-30 minutes to learn, piece a cake.

Only complete idiot could not learn this.


Here you have SB Pro PE, ESim modern battle tanks simulator, this videos show how to operate M1A1/M1A1HA fire control system and Challenger 2 fire control system (however Challenger 2 is still not fully modeled this is why interior is not visible).

 

[militarysta]

every single day being kicked in ass by taliban despite the fact that they only have a ak47 while you have everything.
or yes if killing of unarmed innocent iraq' civilian is termed as success by you guys than we are happy with failure tag than such useless military superiority tag

Few of my friend are sitting in A-stan and Taliban never stand to open battle against Polish, USA,Dutch, Canadian, Britsh army . It's not even propblem that most alied forces have CAS (air support, drones, etc) -even when polish few Rosomak APC (in fact wheel IFV) are moving Talibans are retrateing - of course few yers ago they had tried to made oppen battle whit only few polish APC. Typical scenario - IED, RPG, small fire army. propably those poor bastards thought that polish convoy will retrated as fast as it possible to escape from "kill zone"./ Sorry - not when one APC was damage. Propably Talibans where seriously suprrised when polish unit use smoke launchers not to retrated but to let go infanty from APCs and just, well just killing them whit cooperation whit APCs. Aftert that "Rosomak"-APC start to be known as "Green Devil" or "Green Dragon" in Taliban nicknames. Not even mentioned polish Special Forces.

Most Muslim peopels made serious mistakes when they had tried to assess western (Euriopean and USA) peopels:

They think that western civilization don't want to kill, that this forget how to kill. Sorry -it's not true. Whole Europe rise in to power on blood and harm other nations -it's still elive. But we had second word war, and after that (in central Europe) bloody 50years of soviet (Russian) occupation. So most people in the west don't want fight, war, killing etc. Any familiy in Poland lost many of their familiars during war, or during bloody soviet ocuption (until october 1956). Half of my familiy where murdered by Soviet in Katyń, Ostaszków, Charkiv, and by ukrainian UPA. 80% people with higher education in Poland where killed betwen 1939 and 1945 (in fact even 1950) firstly by Soviet (agression from 17 IX 1939 in cooperation whit Hitler) and germans, after that all polish jews wher murdered by germans, and after that soviets come back and "get free poland" whit more mass murders on polish peopels. And here we come to the muslim peoples mistake. Most of them are thinking that those expiriens and prosperity now demoralized us, that Europe whit their houses, cars, education, human right, ateism, Ipods, cola, etc is weks is "pussy". It's mistake -it's only a small opaque coating centuries of killing, killing and once agian killing - in fact just genocide - against Indian in America, against Negros in Africa, against Jews, etc etc. When somebody disturb the balance, do something really stupid - like 9/11, use nukes in Europe then this whole opaque dissapear and concentration camps will be again in use -this time whit muslims inside. Not even mentioned wars and again fast recolonisation - but his time made in white gloves and mostly by private comanies and corporations.
BTW: the slighty diffrent story is whit slavic peopels (Polish, Ukraina, Belarus, Sebian, Russia, partial Czech and others) - here we even havent those western europe opaque around centuries of harm, iron and blood. Good example is Chechania (Iczkeria) unsekcesfull fight for freedom. Pissing of the Russian was extremly stupid. After first fallen war in 1994-1996 Chechens have chanse for some kind of autonomy, but their wested it and think that Russia is weak, is "pussy" and russian soilders can't fight.Between 1999 and now russians made genocide in Chehcenia and now 8 chechen women falls on 1 men. Most male population is under 14 or over 60. Of course the exept are pro-russian Chehcen from Kadyrow clan and few normal "quiet" citizens.
And Im rememeber when in half of the 1990s Chehcen went into Poland and their start to talks that Russia is ded, is weak is unable to fight and will be colapse. And what?
Many muslims peoples confuse the desire of the peace and normla life whit inability to fight. Try us just slighty harder then 9/11 and will be slaughterhouse again.

BTW: As I said - im not rasist I have rather multiculture friends in Poland here ( From Iraq, from Israel, and other countries) and this upper is not in style "waaa we are strong we are super power Europe bla bla bla", it's rather to explain that trying to use terror in Europe or huge danger (nukes?) will result in somthing diffrent then fear and escape, but as I posted - many (too many) muslim peopels thinh that Europeean peopel have "broken will" and is unable to fight. And it's huge mistake and can turn in to deadly (not for Europe) mistake.

 

[Akim]

@militarysta
We are very far away from the topic of the Turkish tank. About the genocide of the Chechen people - is this West propaganda. In the Soviet Union in Chechnya lived 1.2 million people. 25% of them were Russians and Ukrainians. Now in Chechnya lives of 1.3 million people. From them of 93% - it is the Chechens. So who was subjected to genocide? On the contrary, the Slavic people in the time of the Republic of Ichkeria.

 

[militarysta]

BTW: One more. The world is change - form unipolar (Western Europe -France, Brittan, Spain, German) supreme on whole world to bipolar world order duriong cold war, and multipolar order now (it's seem that S. Huntinghton have right). Propably in future word order will be not multipolar but multi in narrow means - they will be only few major players, and on first place propebly will not by Europe

Propably in most pretendent place will be India - economy, demographics, culture -all factor seems that India in nex 50 years overtake China and will be second the biggest -but young and powerfull - superpower. IMHO it is only a matter of time
China will be strongly compete whit India, but India have mucht better demographics and what is more important - mucht more ballanced economy. So India will have better position. Propably the axis of the global confrontation will be around China whit their aspiration to be biggest super power and Japan, Russia, and India on other side as counterweight against China dominantion.
Europe and USA will be closer becouse only together "old" western civilisation will be able to cooperate whit India and propably aginst China. Paradoxically, the importance of westrrn europe + USA will be bigger then now - becouse it (west) will be important for India against China.
Russia will reign over its "near abroad" -only one questionable think is whit whole Ukraine or only estern half. But Russia is the natural leader of the Orthodox civilization and can be four in those triangle between India - China and "West". So it can completly ruined Chineese aspiration, or...like now -try to make ballance to be more important. For Africa there is no future, for South America rather too (Brasil is natural leader but diffrent language and slight culture make it's imossible).
And problem will be whit all muslim countries borders...but future for that countries will be rather not funny. Maybe sooner then we think.

 

[Damian]

And now we should get back to Altay, the original subject of this topic. Thank you for your attention.

 

[jedigman]

IDEF 2013: Altay MBT completes critical design review

08 May 2013 - 9:09 by Tony Skinner in Istanbul


Turkey's new-generation MBT is almost at the end of its detailed design phase, with manufacturer Otokar awaiting approval of the final design.

The company has now completed the critical design review (CDR) of the Altay MBT and hopes to begin the prototype development and qualification phase shortly.

Speaking at the IDEF exhibition in Istanbul, where the Altay was the centrepiece of Otokar's stand, a spokesman told Shephard that the company is waiting for the Defence Industries Undersecretariat (SSM) to approve the critical design before formally moving into the next phase of development.

Alongside its development of the vehicle, the company is already eyeing prospective export opportunities for what is the only new MBT programme among NATO member countries.

The spokesman said Otokar had purposely avoided involving a foreign partner on the project, so that it can freely offer the MBT to customers in the Middle East and Asia without having to seek outside approval.

Aselsan is developing the MBT's fire control system and C3 information system; MKEK the 120mm L55 smoothbore main gun; and Roketsan the modular armour package. In addition, MTU Turkey has provided its MTU MT 883 diesel engine for the Altay prototypes.

'We are currently looking at the Middle East and as there are no export-licencing problems, we think [the Altay] is going to be attractive to them. They also get the advantage of the new-generation design,' the spokesman said.

He noted that the vehicle had been designed to be easily reconfigured between high intensity warfare and operations other than war, while the open nature of the vehicle's electronic architecture allowed for easier integration of new systems.

Otokar was selected as the prime contractor to design and qualify the Altay in 2008. It has already developed two preliminary prototypes – a Mobile Test Rig (MTR) and a Firing Test Rig (FTR) – both of which underwent a series of tests at the end of last year. The vehicle on display at IDEF featured the FTR's chassis and a representative turret.

The MTR has now done 3600km of testing across a variety of surfaces, including terrain, tarmac and secondary roads.

Once the SSM approves the vehicle's detailed design, the company will move into the qualification phase during which it will produce a further four prototypes.

According to the company spokesman, negotiations for a production contract will then begin in a year's time and are expected to take some 12 months to conclude.

Turkish Land Forces Command has an initial requirement for 250 MBTs with a stated total requirement of more than 1,000 to be produced in later batches.

 

[jedigman]

Thought I'd freshen up this thread with some news. The first prototype of Altay has been built and we may see the images start to appear soon, what we've seen so far were not the Prototypes but "Test Rigs".

There's also an image floating about which shows a different configuration of Altay, not sure if it's prototype or not.

This is Firing Test Rig, might be confirmable by the angling of the sides of turret

 

[Damian]

First two images looks like CGI for promotion.

 

[jedigman]

Video from 1:30 to 5:50 efforts made to develop fire control system within Lab Environment.
@4:31 shows FCS with Stabilization on and off, also interesting first time I've seen such implementation, there's a PIP bottom left of the screen magnification of cross hair. Not sure if it's for lab purposes or functional.


Also, thermal sensor on the Altay Tank will be a QWIP sensor which can switch between MWIR and LWIR.

More information on QWIP sensors here
http://www.eee.metu.edu.tr/~besikci/group/index.html

 

[Damian]

Nice, thanks for posting.

 

[jedigman]

 

[Damian]

It seems that turret design is still evolving, I think armor modules looks slitghly different.