Altay Tank - The New Beast on the block!

[Blackwater]

Pakistan refused to buy M1A1 in 1988, because it failed terrain tests miserably. Heavy tanks don't fare well in our terrain, even though Turkey is ALREADY pitching this tank to Pakistan, i have strong belief it will not see service with Pakistan Army, however Pakistan would be more than interested in using Altay sub systems and technology in Al-Khalid Block II. MOU has been signed for that purpose.

Altay MBT - Main Battle Tank - History, Specs and Pictures - Military Tanks, Vehicles and Artillery

pakistan dont buy it gets in AID.

why should turkey pitch these tanks to pakistan?? will they get $$$ in return from pakistan??


Even lahore 100 BRT metro buss are donated by turkey not pitched . :taunt1::taunt1:

 

[farhan_9909]

There is no reliable source confirming this story. I have allmost all books about M1 development and service history, written by authors from several countries, from Russia as well, nowhere such event is mentioned. It is IMHO convieniant history for someone, the reality was that Americans didn't liked behavior of Pakistan goverment (nuclear weapons research).



What heavy tanks?

Do you even know that such class of tanks does not exist anymore, with medium class, both had been replaced by Main Batle Tanks. MBT's are designed as universal, can operate in different kinds of terrain, not to mention that in 1988 M1A1 weighted below 60 tons, currently operated in Afghanistan USMC M1A1FEP weights 63,1 metric tons and does not have any problems in desert and mountain terrain.

This is story is more and more a fairy tale, convieniant for Pakistans internal use.

major reputed source confirms this.under zia ul haq..he himself witnessed the performance after that he died in plane because someone planted bomb in the plane

i don't know which books your talking about.

 

[Blackwater]

major reputed source confirms this.under zia ul haq..he himself witnessed the performance after that he died in plane because someone planted bomb in the plane

i don't know which books your talking about.

someone

pls show the major source

 

[farhan_9909]

even indian army refused to accept arjun as the offensive tank against pak in thar desert

heavy tank doesnt do well in thar desert even if the t/w is more than 23-24(arjun tank)

M1A1 might be below 60t that time but was the power of the engine?

 

[farhan_9909]

someone

pls show the major source

General Zia did not want to go to Bahawalpur to watch the M1A1 tank demonstration.

The London Post

thank God we didnt went for m1a1..AK might not be as good as m1a1 but we are manufacturing it at home,upgrading,cost less and most important is the gain of knowledge

and export as well(sri lanka possibly)

 

[Damian]

major reputed source confirms this.under zia ul haq..he himself witnessed the performance after that he died in plane because someone planted bomb in the plane

Sorry, this is ridiculous, you should less believe in what someone says, and start to read books.

i don't know which books your talking about.

Books describing in detail development and service history of specific tank. What you do not have such books in Pakistan? How happy I am I live in that part of the world where people are not isolated from knowledge...

Such books:

Abrams - A History Of The American Main Battle Tank Vol.2
M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank 1982-1992
M1 Abrams vs T-72 Ural
Abrams Company
M1A1 & M1A2 Abrams
Warmachines - M1 Abrams
М1 Абрамс
M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank
Museum Ordnance Special 9 - Abrams Main Battle Tank M1A1 and M1A2
Tankograd - M1A1, M1A2 TUSK

This are several titles specifically dedicated for M1 development and service history. I have more where M1 is also mentioned. Nowhere such story is as you describe can be found. These books are written by Americans, Germans, Russians etc.

The only, one of the more important books I do not have, is King of the killing zone by Orr Kelly. Perhaps in future I will get my hands on it.

M1A1 might be below 60t that time but was the power of the engine?

In all variants one engine is used, it is AGT-1500C Gas Turbine engine that produces 1,500HP with governor and without governor (digital device that can be disabled) it can produce up to 2,000HP.

thank God we didnt went for m1a1..

I am also happy, in my opinion we should not sell to countries outside NATO any type of advanced weapon systems, maybe some components like main guns, engines, but not a complete systems. Eventually design specially for exports such things like tanks and aircrafts.

 

[farhan_9909]

Sorry, this is ridiculous, you should less believe in what someone says, and start to read books.



Books describing in detail development and service history of specific tank. What you do not have such books in Pakistan? How happy I am I leave in that part of the world where people are not isolated from knowledge...

Really?please tell us the name of the book.
what if the book didnt had mentioned this?missed it?..you have taken the words of that book as if they are the words of gospel

In all variants one engine is used, it is AGT-1500C Gas Turbine engine that produces 1,500HP with governor and without governor (digital device that can be disabled) it can produce up to 2,000HP.



I am also happy, in my opinion we should not sell to countries outside NATO any type of advanced weapon systems, maybe some components like main guns, engines, but not a complete systems. Eventually design specially for exports such things like tanks and aircrafts.

so american had a 1500hp engine in 1998?.

i don't care whether your happy or not but we simply rejected it...

our relation pre 1998 with USA were as close as usa and israel relations
they had offered us everything they were offering to israel

 

[Damian]

Really?please tell us the name of the book.
what if the book didnt had mentioned this?missed it?..you have taken the words of that book as if they are the words of gospel

I gave you titles of several books. Besides this it is clear you never studied and had been teached what is source and what is not a source.

Source is when you have a document or a publication with full bibliography and known author that is credible. I use such sources. You can even seek informations on DTIC site where are stored documents of the US DoD.

DTIC Home Page

Here you have a link to DTIC, try to search such documents, I wish luck, as there is nowhere said in documents that M1A1 failed in Pakistan. And Americans are very open in this matter, they gave to public knowledge any failure, and such failure is there investigated to seek reason and solution to it.

so american had a 1500hp engine in 1998?.

They had it in M1 from the beggining from 1970's. Jeez you do not know anything about M1's development and service history, do you?! :shocked:

i don't care whether your happy or not but we simply rejected it...

Nope, Americans refused to sell it to Pakistan, when they get knowledge that Pakistan is working on nuclear weapons, it was a punishment for not playing withint the rules.

our relation pre 1998 with USA were as close as usa and israel relations
they had offered us everything they were offering to israel

I hoped you are not so naive... well I was wrong, you are. Seriously do not take serious everything what goverment and national propaganda says to you, it is a purpose of national propaganda to lie to own citizens, damn you people in the middle east and Pakistan didn't learned that yet?

 

[farhan_9909]

@Damian

Zaloga SJ and Sarson P, 1993. M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank 1982 - 1992, Osprey New Vanguard No. 2

as written in your own suggested book.
Pakistan tested the M1 tank.

 

[Damian]

What is written there?

And take a notice that Steven Zaloga use official US Army and DoD documentation as a source for his book. This makes him credible.

 

[farhan_9909]

I gave you titles of several books. Besides this it is clear you never studied and had been teached what is source and what is not a source.

Source is when you have a document or a publication with full bibliography and known author that is credible. I use such sources. You can even seek informations on DTIC site where are stored documents of the US DoD.

well i do admit my knowledge about tanks is limited.for you it may be but for us it is not.
not everything is included in the books.if pak would have agreed to buy m1a1 than they might have published that in the book as well

They had it in M1 from the beggining from 1970's. Jeez you do not know anything about M1's development and service history, do you?! :shocked:



Nope, Americans refused to sell it to Pakistan, when they get knowledge that Pakistan is working on nuclear weapons, it was a punishment for not playing withint the rules.

punishment?...it means you seriously lack the knowledge about pak-usa relations.or hit by indian propaganda
so they exported in the mean time F-16(2nd after israel),radar,p3c,howitzers,small arms,ships and what not
but not the m1a1?

I hoped you are not so naive... well I was wrong, you are. Seriously do not take serious everything what goverment and national propaganda says to you, it is a purpose of national propaganda to lie to own citizens, damn you people in the middle east and Pakistan didn't learned that yet?

you might be good at tanks but seriously you lack the basic knowledge about history

Pakistan–United States relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[farhan_9909]

What is written there?

And take a notice that Steven Zaloga use official US Army and DoD documentation as a source for his book. This makes him credible.

the issue was of whether pak tested M1 or not

which is solved and your once again proved wrong

the lattter was to save the respect of m1 as it stand no chance against russian tanks be it in the capabilities or price

 

[Damian]

well i do admit my knowledge about tanks is limited.for you it may be but for us it is not.
not everything is included in the books.if pak would have agreed to buy m1a1 than they might have published that in the book as well

This is not explanation of your words. I put this other way, I have no knowledge about mating habits of beavers, this is why I do not make any hard opinions about beavers.

punishment?...it means you seriously lack the knowledge about pak-usa relations.or hit by indian propaganda
so they exported in the mean time F-16(2nd after israel),radar,p3c,howitzers,small arms,ships and what not
but not the m1a1?

And how modern these F-16's were eh? They were the latest version that US didn't had? What radars, P3C's, howitzers or ships you got? I didn't seen a Ticonderoga cruisers in Pakistans service.

you might be good at tanks but seriously you lack the basic knowledge about history

Pakistan–United States relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is obvious that politics are not your strong side, but what I can do in this?

the issue was of whether pak tested M1 or not

which is solved and your once again proved wrong

the lattter was to save the respect of m1 as it stand no chance against russian tanks be it in the capabilities or price

Tank was tested, US didn't agreed to sold it due to your nuclear program. The old truth is that when it comes to arguments and explanations, 1st world countries are more credible than 3rd world countries. This might be difficult truth for you, but it is truth.

Besides this, M1 was many times tested against Russian or rather Soviet tanks, and it allways was seen as better, with Leopard 2.

Perhaps you should read about trails in Greece and Sweden? Improve your knowledge, in these trails M1A2 and Leopard 2A5/A6 were allways seen as best, T-xx tanks were somewhere at the end of results table.

Not to mention that your argument is just cheesy, it is not argument at all, only your opinion. I seen actuall test results from Sweden and Greece trails and as I said, M1A2 and Leopard 2A5/A6 were top, both closely comparable to each other, T-80U and T-80UD/T-84 were allways behind in terms of capabilities like mobility, firepower (this means also accuracy) and other characteristics.

http://208.84.116.223/forums/index.php?showtopic=17459

TankNet forums is reliable source of informations, now, learn.

 

[farhan_9909]

@Damian

you said M1 was never tested by Pakistan?didnt you?

and i have proved you wrong by posting a source from your own so called credible book.

and m1 being better than t series tank is only a western propaganda...

EDIT*

One most important part to note is pak had nukes since 1983 while m1 was tested in 1988.

 

[farhan_9909]

And how modern these F-16's were eh? They were the latest version that US didn't had? What radars, P3C's, howitzers or ships you got? I didn't seen a Ticonderoga cruisers in Pakistans service.

we got them in 1983 and they were F-16 a/b..we got them only after israel.

still 60% of pakistan armed forces equipments are american(imported one)
M109a5,cobra choppers and super cobra already on order

We still owe 32 embargoed f-16 to usa

 

[Damian]

you said M1 was never tested by Pakistan?didnt you?

and i have proved you wrong by posting a source from your own so called credible book.

and m1 being better than t series tank is only a western propaganda...

EDIT*

One most important part to note is pak had nukes since 1983 while m1 was tested in 1988.

I said that the story was a fairy tale, not that actuall tests never happend.

M1 is better than T tanks, and stop with that silly western propaganda pseudo argument. Contrary to you I have access to the many reliable yet unfortunetely classified informations + the open source informations. In all trails T-xx tanks failed misserably behind NATO tanks.

Nucelar weapons are mostly classified, Americans could know about them and tried to force Pakistan to abandone further research, Pakistan refused, Americans kicked your asses, simple as that.

And I don't blame them, it is dangerous when smaller countries like Pakistan get their hands on nuclear weapons, especially considering that Pakistan is muslim country, and muslims have a bad behavior of having stupid goverments that like to show how "powerfull" they are with their nukes, in the end it might end bad.

we got them in 1983 and they were F-16 a/b..we got them only after israel.

still 60% of pakistan armed forces equipments are american(imported one)
M109a5,cobra choppers and super cobra already on order

We still owe 32 embargoed f-16 to usa

And you consider this as a modern equipment? You have absolutely no idea about military technology. What is so advanced in M109A5? Or AH-1W Super Cobra?

It is completely understandable that Americans said no about M1A1 that even with Export Armor Package, have still this Export Armor package classified, I would not believe that Pakistan would not sold that to China or somewhere else.

Sorry but this is the truth, Pakistan for USA or west is not a reliable ally, and Pakistan proved this many times.

 

[Apollyon]

Pakistan refused to buy M1A1 in 1988, because it failed terrain tests miserably.

Altay MBT - Main Battle Tank - History, Specs and Pictures - Military Tanks, Vehicles and Artillery

There is no reliable source confirming this story. It is IMHO convieniant history for someone, the reality was that Americans didn't liked behavior of Pakistan goverment (nuclear weapons research).

the issue was of whether pak tested M1 or not
which is solved and your once again proved wrong
the lattter was to save the respect of m1 as it stand no chance against russian tanks be it in the capabilities or price

(1): We tested M1A1 and it failed miserably.

Damian: No reliable source confirming that M1A1 failed trials in Pakistan.

(2): You claimed M1A1 not tested in Pakistan, hence proved wrong.

how low could these Pakistani stoop to fulfill their Martial Ego

 

[Damian]

(1): We tested M1A1 and it failed miserably.

Damian: No reliable source confirming that M1A1 failed trials in Pakistan.

(2): You claimed M1A1 not tested in Pakistan, hence proved wrong.

how low could these Pakistani stoop to fulfill their Martial Ego

They can allways call me the mini satan... the satanic trio!

Big satan (USA), small satan (Israel) and mini satan (Me!)

 

[farhan_9909]

I said that the story was a fairy tale, not that actuall tests never happend.

M1 is better than T tanks, and stop with that silly western propaganda pseudo argument. Contrary to you I have access to the many reliable yet unfortunetely classified informations + the open source informations. In all trails T-xx tanks failed misserably behind NATO tanks.

Nucelar weapons are mostly classified, Americans could know about them and tried to force Pakistan to abandone further research, Pakistan refused, Americans kicked your asses, simple as that.

And I don't blame them, it is dangerous when smaller countries like Pakistan get their hands on nuclear weapons, especially considering that Pakistan is muslim country, and muslims have a bad behavior of having stupid goverments that like to show how "powerfull" they are with their nukes, in the end it might end bad.

lol you said test never happened.atleast be a man of your words
you said this in many different thread..hopefully you wont repeat this again since your proven wrong
you might have said this 1trillions time.but we dont agree with you.
fact remain the same russia has exported more tanks than america has ever produced.
America knew about our nuclear program.and our nuclear program wasnt secret at all.but they needed us against USSR.for them we shot down 9 USSR aircraft and many spetsnaz as well

to burst out your ignorism bubble and amateur hate against muslim countries.Pakistan already is a nuclear state,iran may be in the next 2 years.which itself will trigger nuclear arm race in muslim countries.and Pakistan being pro KSA and turkey would have to deploy nuclear weapons in KSA and turkey

which means under 5 years.you may see a total of 4 muslim nuclear state.


And you consider this as a modern equipment? You have absolutely no idea about military technology. What is so advanced in M109A5? Or AH-1W Super Cobra?

they were modern equipments by than

It is completely understandable that Americans said no about M1A1 that even with Export Armor Package, have still this Export Armor package classified, I would not believe that Pakistan would not sold that to China or somewhere else.

no we rejcted.but the author didnt wanted to be M1 ass in mud since they were already loosing to russia in tanks export.poor they

Sorry but this is the truth, Pakistan for USA or west is not a reliable ally, and Pakistan proved this many times.

Whatever you think.but upcomin pak govt may cease relation with USA

 

[Damian]

fact remain the same russia has exported more tanks than america has ever produced.

And this is argument for what? Quantity does not mean quality. Not to mention that most of tanks exported by Soviets were obsolete tanks, not the ones that at specific time period was comparable to what Americans had.

to burst out your ignorism bubble and amateur hate against muslim countries.Pakistan already is a nuclear state,iran may be in the next 2 years.which itself will trigger nuclear arm race in muslim countries.and Pakistan being pro KSA and turkey would have to deploy nuclear weapons in KSA and turkey

which means under 5 years.you may see a total of 4 muslim nuclear state.

You see, this is what worries me, complete lack of responsibility and lack of respect for life. A nuclear arms race? Seriously? What next a nuclear war in the region so you could proove who love Allach more?

Even nuclear arms race between USA and Soviet Union was more responsible and both sides estabilished a game rules + both sides actually feared the nuclear war. Knowing that muslims are willing to blow themselfs in the name of god which is stupid on it's own, at least for me as atheist, means that there will be no reason why you would not change the whole region in to nuclear desert. Everything in the name of entity that does not exist... like in all religions.

they were modern equipments by than

Compared to what? AH-1W would never exist if not the USMC lower budget that prevented them from purchasing AH-64A, AH-1W was just a low cost, low risk temporary solution.

no we rejcted.but the author didnt wanted to be M1 ass in mud since they were already loosing to russia in tanks export.poor they

But you seems to not know history neither politics. USA never competed with Soviet Union or Russia in terms of tanks exports. Both sides have their own estabilished zones of control or influance. Not to mention that Pakistan didn't purchased tanks from Russia, but from independent Ukraine, and Ukrainians do not cooperate with Russians but compete with them, so Ukrainians are not with Russians but against them.

And there is more, actually Ukrainians cooperate with Americans, so both countries do not compete against eachother. You see, you do not know about anything that happens outside Pakistan.

Whatever you think.but upcomin pak govt may cease relation with USA

Good, why NATO should bother with unreliable partner?