Al-Khalid MBT And Pakistani Armour

[Kunal Biswas]

You mainly gave advantages of Challenger 2 and use of HESH against bunkers(something that I have already mentioned and it is already something handled by Anti-Material rounds). Nothing in it what can substantiate your claim. ( I HAVE CLAIM NOTHING BUT HESH IS BETTER THAN HE ) Also, keep in mind we are talking about tanks ( WHAT U WERE THINKING? ) . I am that confident ( WHAT ? )

I am not going to spell it for you, READ IT AGAIN!

It gives, why HESH is associate with Rifled..
It Gives why HESH is consider as Multipurpose ammo..

HESH is not typical high explosive ammo, it is more a multipurpose ammo. You can fire it at infantry, non armored targets, armored targets, structures etc. Of course it is not effective against targets protected by spaced or multilayer laminate (composite) armor. But again if Shot is taken at vulnerable places like turret ring it going to do the damage inside where as HE don't, HE is usefull against targets other than armored..

 

[p2prada]

HESH is not typical high explosive ammo, it is more a multipurpose ammo. You can fire it at infantry, non armored targets, armored targets, structures etc. Of course it is not effective against targets protected by spaced or multilayer laminate (composite) armor. But again if Shot is taken at vulnerable places like turret ring it going to do the damage inside where as HE don't, HE is usefull against targets other than armored..

The advantages of HESH has long died with the advent of APFSDS. Even if HESH has it's "small" advantages with being multi purpose, new ammunition rounds being created with world over has made it completely obsolete. The only reason why the British use it is because they already have the gun. IA gave the requirement for rifled gun only because of the technology of the time and the experience with Centurion tanks, 1985 requirements. So, most of the advantages HESH on tanks were present in the 60s, 70s and 80s.

If you look at the American and Israeli advancements, you will notice that they have developed highly specialized rounds for countering each eventuality that gives it a capability far superior to what HESH can provide.

http://www.deagel.com/Projectiles/APAM_a002269001.aspx

http://vodpod.com/watch/5457585-future-weapons-israel-special-part-3-apam-round

In case of bunker bursting and ammo against IFVs etc, the HEAT forms a better anti-personnel and anti material round compared to HESH. HESH is primarily used to cause a lot of damage from the outside before penetration while the HEAT still focuses on penetrating and then going for the kill. HEAT also uses delay fuses and multi fuses for anti-personnel as well as bunker bursting.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m830a1.htm

Also, when targeting tank turret, HESH has a lot of rules and restrictions against it's usage against tanks. The biggest disadvantage in using HESH is because of the rules that need to be followed. For eg: a HESH round against a bunker will have to be at a particular distance, at a particular muzzle velocity and at a particular angle(90deg).

For eg: A HESH round to be effective has to be fired at a velocity of 400-600m/s and the round HAS to hit a completely FLAT object, ie the target must not be sloped or inclined in anyway. It needs a 90deg hit. In an anti-tank role the HESH can only be used on armour that is not sloped. For eg: The turret of most tanks have a box like shape and this was the primary reason why the HESH round fired(fratricide) on the Challenger 2 in Iraq was very effective. However, the only ones Indian Army will be facing against are the T-types with Pakistan(T-80UD and Al-Khalid) with capable ERA that gives the turrets a very high inclination and protection against low velocity projectiles like HESH. The HESH will simply bounce of such armour. So, it's capability against the turret ring that worked in Iraq no longer exists today.

The Challenger 2s main advantage against Iraq in 2003 had a lot to do with outdated T-72s than anything special with the HESH.

In conclusion, the APFSDS with Anti-tank capability and HEAT with anti-personnel and ant-material capability including thin armour vehicles, there is no longer a place for the dated HESH. Couple that with modern FCS and longer life along with decreased cost and ease in manufacture of the smoothbore, the rifledbore is no longer in contention to adorn modern tanks in the 21st century. Therefore HESH and Rifled bores are obsolete.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The advantages of HESH has long died with the advent of APFSDS. Even if HESH has it's "small" advantages with being multi purpose, new ammunition rounds being created with world over has made it completely obsolete. The only reason why the British use it is because they already have the gun.

Indian Army will be facing against are the T-types with Pakistan(T-80UD and Al-Khalid) with capable ERA that gives the turrets a very high inclination and protection against low velocity projectiles like HESH. The HESH will simply bounce of such armour. ( FIRST KNOW WHAT IS A TURRET RING ) So, it's capability against the turret ring that worked in Iraq no longer exists today.

There is no comparison between APDFS with HESH and never was, Tank ammo is always consist of two, I.e: Kinetic and chemical

there are such countries like Spain or Sweden use HE as secondary ammo besides APFSDS and HE is used as multipurpose ammo where many other countries use HEAT as multipurpose ammo. However tendency in NATO is to use more types of ammo, HE/HESH and canister ammo against targets other than heavy armored, HEAT/MPAT as multipurpose and APFSDS as anti heavy armor ammo.


HEAT vs HESH:
HESH wins anytime any place any day, HEAT is no comparison to 20kgs of pure HE The blast radius OF HESH is bigger and better shock and perfectly suit for Anti-Infantry and Anti-Light vehicles and MBTs like T-55/59 So does the Concrete Bunkers, HEAT simply lacks the explosion of HESH..


IA vs PA:
IA tanks both T-90/72 and Arjun carry two types of Ammo, as i have mentioned before APDFS is for Anti-Tank and HESH / HE as secondary, HESH have many advantage over PA tanks, Here are Some Pics:

al-zarrah

AL-KHALID

T-80UD

RESULT[/QUOTE]



1. The Vent for Exhaust: is famous in Ukrainian Engines, Behind the Vent their is a thin sheet of Steel separating Engine Compartment from the Exhaust vents..

2. Turret ring: is a very delicate and almost exposed on all tanks, the turret ring is where no ERA can be applied 100%, When Hit by HEAT / HESH / APDFS it will damage inside the Crew compartment..


If u disagree with may analysis, U can ask any tanker in any force except Pakistani
Tank.net is a nest of tank vets including Indian-tankers, they will Educate u better..

 

[p2prada]

HEAT vs HESH:
HESH wins anytime any place any day, HEAT is no comparison to 20kgs of pure HE, The blast radius is bigger and better shock and perfectly suit for Anti-Infantry and Anti-Light vehicles and MBTs like T-55/59 So does the Concrete Bunkers, HEAT simply lacks the explosion of HESH..

All I need is a cheap, easy to install, easy to replace slat armour and even HESH is of no use after that while HEAT still has a higher probability of penetration.

HESH relies on blowing up stuff from the outside. HEAT uses a delay fuze to blow up the inside of tanks.

IA vs PA:
IA tanks both T-90/72 and Arjun carry two types of Ammo, as i have mentioned before APDFS is for Anti-Tank and HESH / HE as secondary, HESH have many advantage over PA tanks, Here are Some Pics:

You are talking about advantages of HESH on 60s, 70s and 80s made tanks. Pakistan will be standardizing on Al-Khalid 2. If you go up against Kontakt-5 with HESH, then there is no use of even fighting them tank vs tank. Any round is effective against the turret line, it is the weakest part of the tank and isn't something only HESH can do.

1. The Vent for Exhaust: is famous in Ukrainian Engines, Behind the Vent their is a thin sheet of Steel sperating Engine Compartment from the Exhunst vents..

I will throw a KE or HEAT at it instead. At least I have a better chance at hitting the front or side if the target tank swerves away. HESH will simply bounce off the tank in such a situation. With modern FCS, don't expect tanks to be stationary for long.

2. Turret ring: is a very delicate and almost exposed on all tanks, the turret ring is where no ERA can be applied 100%, When Hit by HEAT / HESH / APDFS it will damage inside the Crew compartment..

HESH needs to be 90deg on target. The ERA sloping defeats that because of the inclination. Spalling is no longer applicable to modern day tanks. HEAT or KE will do more damage than HESH at any target on a tank.

HESH is only useful on Bunkers. HEAT is better against thin armour compared to HESH. HEAT is only slightly inferior against bunkers. But the advantages of HESH over HEAT does not even scratch the surface of advantages of smooth bore over rifle bore.

If u disagree with may analysis, U can ask any tanker in any force except Pakistani
Tank.net is a nest of tank vets including Indian-tankers, they will Educate u better..

Out of all the tanks in the world today. Only Challenger 2 has a rifle bore along with Arjun. And both tanks are set to move away from HESH and rifle bores with new upgrades. So, whatever education they give me they will still support Smooth bore over Rifle bore on their tanks. Everybody respects HESH, including me, because of it's usefulness against bunkers and buildings. But the fact is it is losing it's value in the overall scale of it's effectiveness compared to KE and HEAT rounds on tanks.

Stryker has a rifled gun with HEP rounds particularly for bunker bursting. The L7 was used in the 70s and 80s and everybody moved away from that because they considered the Smooth bore to be a more effective gun system. Even the US will be completely moving away from rifle guns with the advent of their new 120mm gun on their new MGS system.

With new rounds like APAM and the existence of other anti material rounds HESH has already lost it's value in the 21st century.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

All I need is a cheap, easy to install, easy to replace slat ( SLAT IS DEVELOPED TO DEFEAT HEAT! ) armour and even HESH is of no use after that while HEAT still has a higher probability of penetration.



But the advantages of HESH over HEAT does not even scratch the surface of advantages of smooth bore over rifle bore. ( ? )



Only Challenger 2 has a rifle bore along with Arjun. And both tanks are set to move away from HESH and rifle bores with new upgrades. So, whatever education they give me they will still support Smooth bore over Rifle bore on their tanks. ( AND I SAID INVERSE ? )



Everybody respects HESH, including me, because of it's usefulness against bunkers and buildings. ( AND IFVS & Older T-55/59 Which our neighbor used in MASS )

Stryker has a rifled gun with HEP rounds particularly for bunker bursting.
With new rounds like APAM and the existence of other anti material rounds HESH has already lost it's value in the 21st century,( ITS THE DOCTRINE OF DIFFERENT ARMIES, I mentioned in my above Post )

EDIT: Rifled bores are supposed to be a b*tch to maintain and has a very short life compared to smooth bore

HESH is obsolete ?
A HESH have more advantage than a HE in many cases..

500rnds is the life of MK1 gun, I don't see any problems with it.. ( ASK MR TANK GURU OF YOURS, WHAT IS THE LIFE OF L44 SMOOTH-BORE )

Besides Army do like smooth-bore and FMBT will have one..

Did you Even Read my POST ? Before running with this S***!

Who and Where and When, I SAID RIFLED ROCKED OVER SMOOTH-BORE or ANY member here, WHy are u running with the nonsense when none said it ?

 

[Rage]

You guys are getting emotional. Relax please.

 

[p2prada]

The EFC of the M256 is 1500. At 0.5 EFC the HEAT round can be fired 3000 times. At 1.0 EFC the KE rounds can be fired 1500 times.

The EFC of the L55 is lower only because the gun is BRILLIANT. The Arjun's gun, 2A46M-5, M256 does not even scratch it in power. The new age propellants used have significantly reduced EFC of L55, but that is mainly at the expense of raw power and high target velocities. So, you can't compare the L-55 with the Arjun's obsolete gun.

Also, you have a high propensity to edit your previous posts well after I have replied to them.
In your post 118, your post time was 9:59AM and my reply in 119 with your "exact quotes" was at 11:46AM. Then you edit your post at 12:03PM and a second reply at 12:28PM saying;

Did you Even Read my POST ? Before running with this S***!

So you post and wait for a reply, then edit your original post with a supposed new reply and say I am the one running with "S***."

Also,

Who and Where and When, I SAID RIFLED ROCKED OVER SMOOTH-BORE or ANY member here, WHy are u running with the nonsense when none said it ?[/SIZE]

The only reason to continue using HESH is to use Rifle bore. So, supporting HESH means supporting rifle bore. They go hand in hand.

Thus HESH and Riflebore are obsolete as they no longer provide any advantage on tanks as they did in the 80s. HESH being superior to HEAT in one role means nothing any more.

If you want to question some one POV you have to be clear in what you are trying to say. I show decency to a poster who can give the same respect. I am allergic to BS after all.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

So, you can't compare the L-55 with the Arjun's obsolete gun.

Who Started Rifle Vs Smooth-bore ?

So you post and wait for a reply, then edit your original post with a supposed new reply and say I am the one running with "S***."

Also,

http://defenceforumindia.com/showthread.php?t=14190&page=6

Their is no editing, Coz it was never..

U Intentionally Ran with Rifle vs Smooth-bore without any reason and as part of Off-topic coz it was related to ARJUN..

U wanted to prove again and again Rifled is aboslite Coz it is associated with ARJUN..

I am allergic to BS after all.

Who is talking.... :thumb:

 

[p2prada]

Who Started Rifle Vs Smooth-bore ?

http://defenceforumindia.com/showthread.php?t=14190&page=6

Their is no editing, Coz it was never..

U Intentionally Ran with Rifle vs Smooth-bore without any reason and as part of Off-topic coz it was related to ARJUN..

U wanted to prove again and again Rifled is aboslite Coz it is associated with ARJUN..[/SIZE]


Who is talking.... :thumb:

You have edited 2 posts after I had already replied to them(Post 95 and Post 118). So, don't argue about it. You already know that.

And look at the post I was replying to at #87. Who was I replying to and what was the content?

I can still give plenty of reasons why HESH is still obsolete. Since you cannot carry an argument in a civilized way, I think I will stop before the Mods intervene.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Who is arguing abt anything except Post No 88..



This is how u did:
Started By Rifled Gun..

HESH Vs APDFS then HESH Vs HEAT, Rifled Gun Vs Smooth-bore ----> Ultimately Arjun..

 

[sayareakd]

Al-Khalid/MBT-2000 Main Battle Tank

Alkhalid cannot shoot properly

check the video, alkhalid cannot shoot stright, first video at frame no. 5.39 onwards
first attempt at the moving target at static position fails, second attempt at moving target at moving position, they did not show the video think what must have happen


second video has Al khalid shooting its missile at target check frame no.1.30 onwards, wide gap between the target and missile and again impact is not shown


PA has to now start thinking about other MBT with China.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Does it say Made in China?

If they where really misses then they where huge misses!

The Pak General says it has the highest power to weight ratio, which means if you can not make your tank to hit the target, you should atleast make it runaway fast!!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The funnest thing abt this Chinese tank protection:

The first two ERA tiles are inferior to DRDO ERA in terms of Explosive Charge as they are so thin, the third may have same thickness as ours, And fourth seems better, But none of this can possible protect them from tandem..

Give a look at thickness of DRDO era all over the tank..

Now give a look at these ERAs, They occupied large space also they are thin, If one blew up it will leave a large space unprotected..
But the given RHA plates at slopes do reinforce the protection to some degree, These ERA panels can be breached easily by modern APDFS rounds available in Indian Tanks..



They could have put ERA tiles all over the tank, don't know why they didn't..

Btw, No troops would like to climb one of those over hot desert....

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Do we have any video of Arjun or T-90 hitting the target?

 

[sayareakd]

al khalid protection area is very small, at front side of tank lot of area is not covered by ERA, they have tried very hard to reduce weight. Tank is supposed to have proper protection against anti tank weapons, if it is not done then any Anti tank weapon can take it out, then it will be scrap.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

The first two ERA tiles are inferior to DRDO ERA in terms of Explosive Charge as they are so thin, the third may have same thickness as ours, And fourth seems better, But none of this can possible protect them from tand.

May be their ERA has better explosives like CL – 20? We cant judge them on the knowledge we have unless we have some substantive proof? Because we would be failing ourselves first if we are not realistic!!

 

[sayareakd]

Do we have any video of Arjun or T-90 hitting the target?

Arjun target

on static target, firs pic has gunner shooting it for the first time.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

al khalid protection area is very small, at front side of tank lot of area is not covered by ERA, they have tried very hard to reduce weight. Tank is supposed to have proper protection against anti tank weapons, if it is not done then any Anti tank weapon can take it out, then it will be scrap.

We dont know much abt Chinese modular Armour, But its not good enough, If you see type-99 or newer Type-96 they have composite armour module in front of the tanks, Some model though give hidden ERA behind those modules, And these tanks are export variants, Use your imaginations, Sir..

 

[Godless-Kafir]

It shows two bullet holes and this a static target not an moving target!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

May be their ERA has better explosives like CL – 20? We cant judge them on the knowledge we have unless we have some substantive proof? Because we would be failing ourselves first if we are not realistic!!

Their is nothing realistic, we all are guessing and this is my guess, No one know what type of explosive DRDO are using perhaps the same ? or different..

My judgment is based on its other looks and also its a vital factor, Its known that thin era are single layered wher thicker may have more than two layers of ERA panels inside them..