Al-Khalid MBT And Pakistani Armour

[Swiftfarts]

Best option is to upgrade T90 and NGMBT.

NGMBT is armata. Likh ke le lo

 

[NAMICA]

NGMBT is armata. Likh ke le lo

Is 'like' armata.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

DRDO WHap. Army is already looking for foreign option for obvious reasons.

Heavy IFV is not suitable for Punjab. It's a river country.
a simple flooding will create Swampy condition and make heavy IFV , tank effective maneuvering almost impossible. as for heavily build up cities , it will be the last target. i will go for a siege and starving option rather than go all at once. For Rajasthan sector i am all for it.

DRDO WhAP has not been rejected by the Army. Don't go by what the dalals say in media.

As @ArgonPrime has pointed out, swampy conditions would stop a tank too. So yeah, its not a problem unique to heavy ICV, not a dealbreaker, in my opinion. But one potential dealbreaker for heavy ICV in Punjab sector would be lack of floating capability in a heavy ICV. Pakistan's primary defence in this sector is based on canal networks. Army could mitigate it with better drive-in pontoon bridges like the DRDO Amphibious Floating Bridge and Ferry System, but the logistic feasibility of that is questionable.

As for urban warfare, you can't avoid it by simply laying seige to these cities. Look at the Amritsar Lahore axis. The suburbs are built-up in a way that affords the Pakistani defenders a huge advantage, multiple structures to hide ATGM crews in.

New US ABCT model can help, IBG are similar i think.

US ABCT and Indian IBG have very different philosophies. Indian IBG is meant to conduct shallow armoured thrusts in set-piece engagements against a Maginot-type Pakistani fortification. Indian IBG is meant to be highly terrain and task specific and a forward deployed formation with quick reaction times. Moreover, Indian IBG are expected to have the capability to fight in an NBC environment.

US ABCT are different. They are meant for modular operations, global deployability and simplified logistics.

 

[Bleh]

My old post in FICV thread... Seems relevant in this context.

Indian defence forces rather follow (and this is one of thing I really like about them) a colourful combo of Western and Eastern war doctrines, nitpicked and modified to fit our needs... What their model of mechanised warfare in this subcontinent requires, is fully amphibious ICVs 25ton max, with fast tanks 50ton max. To them STANAG Level6 frontal protection against auto-cannonsis enough.
T-15 is a fucking 48ton monster! And irrespective what other people are following, also irrespective of what we think Indian armour should follow, Army themselves have never shown any interested in such FICV design.

And they may actually be right... Slapping modular armor won't make the cut as we are entering the era of top attack ATGMs & Loitering Munitions which can recognise enemy tank to go around hitting from the rear. My detailed post on this at FMBT page. Anti-tank thermobaric warhead can heat up the whole thing to cook troops/crew alive inside, no matter how well armoured.

Our best bet is full reliance on APS, MCS, EW etc. like we do in attack-helos.

 

[Swiftfarts]

Frankly, I'm not so sure. Is it the Naiza?? Also, they may have received that Chinese APFSDS-T rounds with DOP of ~220mm at 66.4 degrees with their new VT-4s, who knows??

Naiza DU one ? what's the DOP. What other round they use. What about this one.

 

[Swiftfarts]

My old post in FICV thread... Seems relevant in this context.

What their model of mechanised warfare in this subcontinent requires, is fully amphibious ICVs 25ton max, with fast tanks

Kruganetz 25 meet that requirement.

. T-15 is a fucking 48ton monster! And irrespective what other people are following, also irrespective of what we think Indian armour should follow, Army themselves have never shown any interested in such FICV design.

T 15 is actually around 60 tonne same class as Namer. even Armata is around 55-56 tonne not 48 as previously reported.

Naiza DU one ? what's the DOP. What other round they use. What about this one.
View attachment 66433

Kya huwa?

 

[ArgonPrime]

DRDO WhAP has not been rejected by the Army. Don't go by what the dalals say in media.

It has its place, gotta agree.

As But one potential dealbreaker for heavy ICV in Punjab sector would be lack of floating capability in a heavy ICV. Pakistan's primary defence in this sector is based on canal networks. Army could mitigate it with better drive-in pontoon bridges like the DRDO Amphibious Floating Bridge and Ferry System, but the logistic feasibility of that is questionable.[/QUOTE]
That won't be a problem because armored-mechanized regiments will always be accompanied by mobile assault bridges. We already have a 70 ton class assault bridge operational.
[QUOTE="Okabe Rintarou, post: 1800166, member: 26331"]As for urban warfare, you can't avoid it by simply laying seige to these cities. Look at the Amritsar Lahore axis. The suburbs are built-up in a way that affords the Pakistani defenders a huge advantage, multiple structures to hide ATGM crews in.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. Even if you want to go the siege route, you would still need to close in and even circumvent/drive through your objective in order to block the enemy reinforcements and supplies from pouring in. Besides, I don't think that long of a war can be sustained under a nuclear overhang.

[QUOTE="Okabe Rintarou, post: 1800166, member: 26331"]US ABCT and Indian IBG have very different philosophies. [B][I][U]Indian IBG is meant to conduct shallow armoured thrusts in set-piece engagements against a Maginot-type Pakistani fortification.[/U][/I][/B] Indian IBG is meant to be highly terrain and task specific and a forward deployed formation with quick reaction times. Moreover, Indian IBG are expected to have the capability to fight in an NBC environment.[/QUOTE]
Very true indeed. And that necessitates the use of heavy AFVs even more.

 

[ArgonPrime]

Naiza DU one ? what's the DOP.

Yep, the DU one. DOP is reported be in the 530-550 mm range at 0 degrees at 2 km but nothing official.

What other round they use. What about this one.
View attachment 66433

It's old tungsten round they got from the Ukrainians to be used with their T-80UDs. It's got a reported DOP of ~460mm at 2 km at 0 degree inclination angle.
Here - https://pof.gov.pk/productDetail/36 (you may need to use a VPN to access the page)

 

[Swiftfarts]

Yep, the DU one. DOP is reported be in the 530-550 mm range at 0 degrees at 2 km but nothing official.

It's an old round they got from the Ukrainians to be used with their T-80UDs. It's got a reported DOP of ~460mm at 2 km at 0 degree inclination angle.
Here - https://pof.gov.pk/productDetail/36 (you may need to use a VPN to access the page)
View attachment 66435

is this DU one the best they use ?

 

[Bleh]

Kya huwa?

Naiza DU is no better. Reportedly 500mm at 2km.

 

[ArgonPrime]

is this DU one the best they use ?

Well, it would appear so but I'm not certain because I don't know what the Chinese may or may not have them provided with.

 

[ArgonPrime]

I didn't know Naiza was that low... It's out a fucking DU?

It's pretty short in length though. But I'm not so sure because I can't find anything official.

 

[Swiftfarts]

I didn't know Naiza was that low... It's out a fucking DU?

well anything on its dimensions?

 

[Swiftfarts]

It's pretty short in length though. But I'm not so sure because I can't find anything official.

Chalo unofficial he bata do. Hum sare yanha kon se professional bhetay hain

 

[ArgonPrime]

Chalo unofficial he bata do. Hum sare yanha kon se professional bhetay hain

Arey kaha na, ~530-550 mm at 0 degrees.

My old post in FICV thread... Seems relevant in this context.
Indian defence forces rather follow (and this is one of thing I really like about them) a colourful combo of Western and Eastern war doctrines, nitpicked and modified to fit our needs... What their model of mechanised warfare in this subcontinent requires, is fully amphibious ICVs 25ton max, with fast tanks 50ton max. To them STANAG Level6 frontal protection against auto-cannonsis enough.

Which just goes to show how utterly clueless these old coots are as to what to expect in a future battle ground.

T-15 is a fucking 48ton monster! And irrespective what other people are following, also irrespective of what we think Indian armour should follow, Army themselves have never shown any interested in such FICV design.

Yeah yeah, the same old British line of thinking - 'Speed is Armor'!! And then Jutland happened. Fools, they never learn, do they??

And they may actually be right... Slapping modular armor won't make the cut as we are entering the era of top attack ATGMs

Top attack ATGMs have been around since forever, didn't seem to have stopped the advanced nations from producing heavier and heavier AFVs, now did it??

& Loitering Munitions which can recognise enemy tank to go around hitting from the rear.

Such loitering munitions/ kamikazee drones require man-in-the-loop guidance mode, which means, there would have to be continous uninterrupted communications between the operator and the munition. Don't be fooled by the seemingly unstoppable havoc they wreaked against poorly equipped militaries of small nations such as Armenia or Syria but against a military, like that of India, which has access to powerful all aspect mobile EWS like Samyukta and now Himshakti, which covers the entire gamut of the em spectrum, such toys won't be nearly as effective.

Anti-tank thermobaric warhead can heat up the whole thing to cook troops/crew alive inside, no matter how well armoured.

Are you sure about that?? Cause thermobaric warheads generally don't do too well against hardened targets. They are generally used to destroy field fortifications made of earthwork, timber, and other naturally sourced materials and against your regular buildings but they are generally not used against reinforced concrete structures.
Are you sure you are not confusing this with the neutron bombs??

Our best bet is full reliance on APS, MCS, EW etc. like we do in attack-helos.

Such defense measures can not be a substitute for actual armor, they can only supplement the latter.

 

[Swiftfarts]

Arey kaha na, ~530-550 mm at 0 degrees.

Which just goes to show how utterly clueless these old coots are as to what to expect in a future battle ground.

Yeah yeah, the same old British line of thinking - 'Speed is Armor'!! And then Jutland happened. Fools, they never learn, do they??

Top attack ATGMs have been around since forever, didn't stop the advanced nation from producing heavier and heavier AFVs, now did it??

Such loitering munitions/ kamikazee drones require man-in-the-loop guidance mode, which means, there would have to be continous uninterrupted communications between the operator and the munition. Don't be fooled by the seemingly unstoppable havoc they wreaked against poorly equipped militaries of small nations such as Armenia or Syria but against a military, like that of India, which has access to powerful all aspect mobile EWS like Samyukta and now Himshakti, which covers the entire gamut of the em spectrum, such toys won't be nearly as effective.

Are you sure about that?? Cause thermobaric warheads generally don't do too well against hardened targets. They are generally used to destroy field fortifications made of earthwork, timber, and other naturally sourced materials and against your regular buildings but they are generally not used against reinforced concrete structures.
Are you sure you are not confusing this with the neutron bombs??

Such defense measures can not be a substitute for actual armor, they can only supplement the latter.

Dimensions ki baat kar raha tha main.

 

[ArgonPrime]

Dimensions ki baat kar raha tha main.

Oh, I see. Sorry, I can't provide anything concrete on that but here's a picture of it for reference

Make of it what you will.

 

[Bleh]

Are you sure you are not confusing this with the neutron bombs??

No I read something about high-yield incendiary warhead that heat up the metal to several hundred degrees... Under development probably, but meant to effectively bypass armour protection.

 

[ArgonPrime]

No I read something about highyield incendiary warhead that heat up the metal to several hundred degrees.

Oh, I see. That could work. I remember seeing in a History TV documentary on how the retreating Iraqis had lost scores of AFVs including tanks and thousands of personnel were burnt to a crisp in bombing attacks by RAF and USAF aircraft using napalm during operation Desert Shield. So I can see that working.

 

[Swiftfarts]

Oh, I see. Sorry, I can't provide anything concrete on that but here's a picture of it for reference View attachment 66436
Make of it what you will.

@Bleh ? Your view on this.