Al-Khalid MBT And Pakistani Armour

[Okabe Rintarou]

True that since the majority of the top brass do not appear to have any clue as to what they need nor they care about the safety of their personnel.

I don't get it. Its meant to be an ICV. What does it need above a STANAG-6 and APS?

 

[ArgonPrime]

I don't get it. Its meant to be an ICV. What does it need above a STANAG-6 and APS?

Umm...I don't know, how about not wanting to be overwhelmed by scores of beef roast memes in case things go tits up in the future?? Sounds fair now??

 

[WolfPack86]

As per sources delivery of Pantsir-S 1 Air Defense System to Pakistan is in final stages. Pakistan & Russia can reach the agreement for the license production of AK-103 Assault Rifle for Pakistan Army.

 

[Mikesingh]

Where are these beggars getting the money from to purchase all these weapon platforms? Saalon ke paas tamatar kharidney ko paise nahin hai aur inko Pantsir aur MI-35 chahiye?

Looks like they're used to eating grass as ZA Bhutto ordained.

 

[ArgonPrime]

Where are these beggars getting the money from to purchase all these weapon platforms? Saalon ke paas tamatar kharidney ko paise nahin hai aur inko Pantsir aur MI-35 chahiye?

Looks like they're used to eating grass as ZA Bhutto ordained.

Guess they have got an underground parallel economy going on.

 

[India Super Power]

As per sources delivery of Pantsir-S 1 Air Defense System to Pakistan is in final stages. Pakistan & Russia can reach the agreement for the license production of AK-103 Assault Rifle for Pakistan Army.

It's just a media stunt by ispr guided defense sources
Mi 35s are very very old so buying them, russia is more benefited because of selling of old metal craps

 

[Bleh]

Umm...I don't know, how about not wanting to be overwhelmed by scores of beef roast memes in case things go tits up in the future?? Sounds fair now??

To be fair, beyond than SATNAG-6 (40mm rounds ) you can only go for add-on tiles, to raise frontal protection for 50/57mm... At that you can still maintain amphibious capability with inflatable floaters.

Beyond that we're talking about tank hull based APCs like BMP-55 or BTR-T. None of those were actually adopted widely, even NAMER are in limited numbers.
Not really sure why? Maybe lower powered frontal enginesmake then slower. Possibly their large sizes present too big weak spots anyway for 500mm+ RHA frontal protection to be of any effect.

 

[ArgonPrime]

To be fair, beyond than SATNAG-6 (40mm rounds ) you can only go for add-on tiles, to raise frontal protection for 50/57mm... At that you can still maintain amphibious capability with inflatable floaters.

I know that but realistically how often do you expect an AFV to be engaged by an autocannon??!! In my opinion, any AFV will have a far greater likelihood of encountering ATGMs/ RPG type weapons, in which case, STANAG-6 simply won't cut it or should I say, hold it.

Beyond that we're talking about tank hull based APCs like BMP-55 or BTR-T.

I was thinking more in line with the new T-15 Armata IFVs which are now under series production.

None of those were actually adopted widely,

Doesn't mean we have to copy everything that other militaries do or don't do.

even NAMER are in limited numbers.

Dude, are you serious?? They already have built close to 150 of those and plans to operate a fleet of ~500-550 eventually. For the size of their military, that order is just huge!!

Not really sure why? Maybe lower powered frontal enginesmake then slower. Possibly their large sizes present too big weak spots anyway for 500mm+ RHA frontal protection to be of any effect.

Dude, it'd appear that you're stuck in the 90s. Wake up and take a closer look around. Namers are powered by 1200 bhp engines whereas the T-15 makes use of a 1500 bhp one and they sure as hell do not lack in mobility.

And as for big weak spots, no, that is simply incorrect as the Israelis themselves have claimed that pound for pound, Namer is better protected than Merkava MkIV, which is quite logical if you think about it as more percentage of its mass consists of armor than it would be possible for a tank for obvious reasons.

 

[Bleh]

Dude, are you serious?? They already have built close to 150 of those and plans to operate a fleet of ~500-550 eventually. For the size of their military, that order is just huge!!

Dude, it'd appear that you're stuck in the 90s. Wake up and take a closer look around. Namers are powered by 1200 bhp engines whereas the T-15 makes use of a 1500 bhp one and they sure as hell do not lack in mobility.

And as for big weak spots, no, that is simply incorrect as the Israelis themselves have claimed that pound for pound, Namer is better protected than Merkava MkIV, which is quite logical if you think about it as more percentage of its mass consists of armor than it would be possible for a tank for obvious reasons.

Yes, even our Tarmour APC (which was hella ugly) used Kanchan armor with ERA & another layer of spaced-armor at upper section. It was claimed that Tarmour's armor provided all-round protection against RPG-7 & 700mm RHA frontal 30° all over... 45t with 850hp engine.
Tarmour had a remotely controlled 12.7 mm machine gun operated by vehicle's commander. There was a driver & 9 troops.

But guess who are expendable cannon fodders in the eyes of IA officers?

Anyways, check this out: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw1MQUjf0W3t7lDRiyr04XtV&cshid=1605243119123

 

[ArgonPrime]

Yes, even our Tarmour APC (which was hella ugly) used Kanchan armor with ERA & another layer of spaced-armor at upper section. It was claimed that Tarmour's armor provided all-round protection against RPG-7 & 700mm RHA frontal 30° all over... 45t with 850hp engine.
Tarmour had a remotely controlled 12.7 mm machine gun operated by vehicle's commander. There was a driver & 9 troops.

But guess who are expendable cannon fodders in the eyes of IA officers?

Anyways, check this out: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw1MQUjf0W3t7lDRiyr04XtV&cshid=1605243119123

I'm actually aware of that whole fiasco. Tarmour had great potential but it didn't see the light of the day simply due to criminal apathy and utter lack of farsight and imagination of the armored corps top brass. And then the same thing was repeated with Tank-Ex. These guys will never learn. Guess the lives of the men they command hold no value to them. Perhaps, it's a supply and demand situation, we have too great a population and too many poor semi-literate unemployed youths standing in the queue, all too eager to fill in the void left behind after a batch of soldiers gets turned into lumps of charcoal.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Umm...I don't know, how about not wanting to be overwhelmed by scores of beef roast memes in case things go tits up in the future?? Sounds fair now??

I know that but realistically how often do you expect an AFV to be engaged by an autocannon??!! In my opinion, any AFV will have a far greater likelihood of encountering ATGMs/ RPG type weapons, in which case, STANAG-6 simply won't cut it or should I say, hold it.

Doesn't APS takes care of most of the ATGM threats? Maybe not in urban areas. You have almost managed to convince me. A case for a T-15 style ICV, that extends ATGM protection to passive armour, can be made for Punjab theater where there is high density of built-up urban and semi-built-up rural areas, especially around and approaching Lahore. The Indian Army doctrine (Cold Start) also involves a tactic that calls for Indian Armoured Columns to move close to Pakistani civilian population centers (hugging the Pakistani cities) because it negates Pakistani nuclear threats, unless the Pakistanis plan to nuke the edges of its own cities just to get rid of a few Indian tanks. In this case the Indian ICV should have passive armour to survive against ATGM. So yeah, you are right. There is a case for T-15 style ICV in Indian Army.

In Thar and Himalayas, its still better to stick with a <30-ton ICV.

 

[NAMICA]

Doesn't APS takes care of most of the ATGM threats? Maybe not in urban areas. You have almost managed to convince me. A case for a T-15 style ICV, that extends ATGM protection to passive armour, can be made for Punjab theater where there is high density of built-up urban and semi-built-up rural areas, especially around and approaching Lahore. The Indian Army doctrine (Cold Start) also involves a tactic that calls for Indian Armoured Columns to move close to Pakistani civilian population centers (hugging the Pakistani cities) because it negates Pakistani nuclear threats, unless the Pakistanis plan to nuke the edges of its own cities just to get rid of a few Indian tanks. In this case the Indian ICV should have passive armour to survive against ATGM. In Thar and Himalayas, its still better to stick with a <30-ton ICV.

Bro don't underestimate the impotency of porkis civilian life is least important to them.

 

[NAMICA]

Doesn't APS takes care of most of the ATGM threats? Maybe not in urban areas. You have almost managed to convince me. A case for a T-15 style ICV, that extends ATGM protection to passive armour, can be made for Punjab theater where there is high density of built-up urban and semi-built-up rural areas, especially around and approaching Lahore. The Indian Army doctrine (Cold Start) also involves a tactic that calls for Indian Armoured Columns to move close to Pakistani civilian population centers (hugging the Pakistani cities) because it negates Pakistani nuclear threats, unless the Pakistanis plan to nuke the edges of its own cities just to get rid of a few Indian tanks. In this case the Indian ICV should have passive armour to survive against ATGM. So yeah, you are right. There is a case for T-15 style ICV in Indian Army.

In Thar and Himalayas, its still better to stick with a <30-ton ICV.

Using different types of IFV for different theatre it's logistics nightmare. Indian Army wants a IFV that can be operated any where and in any terrain.

 

[Swiftfarts]

T 15 armata ,Namer APC is the way to go in future if you want to give crew survivability importance.
Indian army requirement are fully meet by IFV like kurganets 25

weigh and everything else is in acceptable range.

 

[NAMICA]

T 15 armata ,Namer APC is the way to go in future if you want to give crew survivability importance.
Indian army requirement are fully meet by IFV like kurganets 25

View attachment 66428View attachment 66427

weigh and everything else is in acceptable range.

Too much dalali now I am fed up with Russian arm twisting and imports.

 

[Swiftfarts]

Too much dalali now I am fed up with Russian arm twisting and imports.

To hai koi or option ?

 

[ArgonPrime]

Doesn't APS takes care of most of the ATGM threats?

Yes, they do but they have their limits. For example,
1. Any system can be overwhelmed....................eventually, if the enemy throws enough numbers of ATGWs at your way.

2. What if the sensor gets damaged by artillery fire or some other means??

There are some other issues but that's for another time.

Maybe not in urban areas.

Exactly. Personally, I would not want to send in an armored unit into an enemy-occupied heavily built-up area but sometimes, there is no choice and if your AFVs are not adequately protected, you'll have the devil to pay, metaphorically speaking.

You have almost managed to convince me. A case for a T-15 style ICV, that extends ATGM protection to passive armour, can be made for Punjab theater where there is high density of built-up urban and semi-built-up rural areas, especially around and approaching Lahore. The Indian Army doctrine (Cold Start) also involves a tactic that calls for Indian Armoured Columns to move close to Pakistani civilian population centers (hugging the Pakistani cities) because it negates Pakistani nuclear threats, unless the Pakistanis plan to nuke the edges of its own cities just to get rid of a few Indian tanks. In this case the Indian ICV should have passive armour to survive against ATGM. So yeah, you are right. There is a case for T-15 style ICV in Indian Army.

You're on the right track. That was indeed the line of thinking I had based my arguments on.

In Thar and Himalayas, its still better to stick with a <30-ton ICV.

Yeah, even though I would still prefer a heavier AFV even in those theaters but I believe we can get away with a lighter less protected vehicle just fine in such open terrain conditions.

It appears that the army has decided to take the one-size-fits-all approach when it comes to selecting its next IFV but I'm not at all sure if that's the practical option given the uniqueness of our predicament. I think two different versions of IFVs should be designed along with an MBT, an ARV, an AEV and an urban tank support vehicle using the same basic hull design to ensure maximum commonality among them.

 

[NAMICA]

To hai koi or option ?

Public private collab.

 

[ArgonPrime]

T 15 armata ,Namer APC is the way to go in future if you want to give crew survivability importance.
Indian army requirement are fully meet by IFV like kurganets 25

View attachment 66428View attachment 66427

weigh and everything else is in acceptable range.

I think I get your point......kinda, but why should we wait for the future in order to induct something beefier such as T-15 or Namer?? Why shouldn't it be done from the get-go??

 

[ArgonPrime]

Public private collab.

But, will the army accept it?? After witnessing the whole clusterfuck of a shitshow that's the ATAGS saga, I don't think we have got much to hope for in that regard.