Al-Khalid MBT And Pakistani Armour

[farhan_9909]

No, it is because I'am talking with poor educated person, who does not even know, about what I'am talking about.



I don't care if You produce something locally, You can even clone elephants, it is not important, important is turret geometry, and no, You can't place more ERA, because turret geometry do not permitts this.

It is ammusing for Asian nations, but all of them seems to not understand or not take enough focus on details like safe manouvering angles principle, that says, the vehicle frontal protection is achieved within frontal arc of 60-70 degrees (30-35 degrees for left or right side of vehicle) from the hull/turret longitudinal axis. Neither Chinese tanks, neither Al Khalid meets this requirement due to poor side hull protection, and turret geometry that is not designed for a tank with such composite armor placement.



Well seems that obvious things are not obvious for You?



Size of a turret is not important, in fact what is important is placement and thickness of composite armor. In Al Khalid composite armor is only on the turret front, while highly exposed at the frontal arc, side turret surfaces are only protected by thin RHA armor, just like on Chinese tanks.



1) Nonsense,
2) I compared, and I say, that what You say is nonsense. I proved many times that any of your argument is nonsense based on Your silly pseudo patriotism and this silly national pride withot any back up.

lol..help your ego
i am happy calling me uneducated.
rather than despite knowledge being a ignorant

in the same thread i posted a picture of al khalid with different ERA layout
the problem we dnt have enough pictures of AK.as all the picture of the same AK unit and are 5-6 years old.

poorly placed turret was a news from you..
everytime you dnt have anything bt just calling chinese and AK turret poorly placed

i guess chinese should hire you?or you should help your country designing a 2nd gen tank(i doubt there capability to develop a 3rd gen tank)

poorly placed,poorly placed
than show us picture with red marking..

lol

you just compared two pictures of AK and T80Ud/t84

while nt noticing that

AK has a superior western FCS/GCS
thermal imagers
bigger turret(more room for upgrades)
bigger caliber gun in AK1

and much more.

though yes the oplot is comparable to AK..

 

[p2prada]

Yes, or he is just poorly akowledged with this issue. I seen many silly fantasies made by military personell, despite respect for them, they are not nececary specialists in many terms when it comes to military technology, they know how to use it, but majority of them are just not interested in all details.

I agree with this point. This is a "Frog in a well" case. There are military personnel who are not exposed to international standards in weaponry. They think they believe the stuff they work with is the best there is. I had this discussion with an IAF Mirage-2000 groundsman when discussing about the MKI.

He did not know anything about the MKI and had this misconception that the Mirage-2000 beats it in every parameter simply because it is French.

Almost always, only R&D teams know what's happening around the world.

Solid State Autoloader for AK

www.carepvtltd.com/cms.php?id=Solid_State_Autoloader

I hope you realize this is just a digital circuit and nothing particularly impressive...

 

[farhan_9909]

Kombat as well as 9M119 and such GLATGM's are just previous generation without a future. Future lies in GLATGM's with BLOS and Top Attack capabilities. With Kombat or 9M119 You still need to see enemy, and You can be seen by enemy. And this is not thing You want with something such slow like GLATGM.

seriously you lack knowledge about kombat

the other russian guy can explain it very well

 

[Damian]

lol..help your ego
i am happy calling me uneducated.
rather than despite knowledge being a ignorant

Well You are ignorant.

in the same thread i posted a picture of al khalid with different ERA layout
the problem we dnt have enough pictures of AK.as all the picture of the same AK unit and are 5-6 years old.

There are no photos. You should try to use imageshack to post photos, then these will be visible for everyone.

poorly placed turret was a news from you..
everytime you dnt have anything bt just calling chinese and AK turret poorly placed

Not poorly placed, but it have a wrong geometry for it's composite armor placement. It is ammusing that You don't know the principle of safe manouvering angles. It was discussed on this forum so many times.

i guess chinese should hire you?or you should help your country designing a 2nd gen tank(i doubt there capability to develop a 3rd gen tank)

First I would refuse such offer. Second, this is such an old and known fact for countries that are manufacturing tanks for much longer time, that I do not understand why newcomers to tank industry don't learn from them, but just repeat the same mistakes all over again.

poorly placed,poorly placed
than show us picture with red marking..

I said about geometry You fool, it only shows Your education level if You don't see difference between geometry and placement.



This shows turret geometry comparrision between T-90A/S welded turret, and ZTZ-98/99 (Al Khalid have similiar turret geometry) and Type 10 from Japan.

T-90A/S and T-84M Oplot turrets, the same principle of hiding the weak side turret armor, behind strong frontal armor, within vehicle frontal 60-70 degrees arc.

As a comparrision, western tanks have thick side turret armor to achieve desired protection levels within their frontal arc.

Chinese designs, there is also Al Khalid there, the red circle shows place where weak side armor is most exposed.

I have much more of such drawings.

you just compared two pictures of AK and T80Ud/t84

And these photos shows superiority of armor protection of Ukrainian tank.

while nt noticing that

AK has a superior western FCS/GCS
thermal imagers
bigger turret(more room for upgrades)
bigger caliber gun in AK1

and much more.

Nothing superior, Soviet FCS is comparable to western FCS in many terms, in some is a bit inferior, but not that much as You think.
T-80UD used by Pakistan also have thermal imagers, based on French technology, what You want to proove here?
Bigger turret does not mean better turret, and the fact You need more space for internal upgrades, only shows Your inferiority in electronics minimalization.
"Big calliber gun" is just a slogan, the same calliber, 125mm is used around the globe by many designs, nothing superior here.

though yes the oplot is comparable to AK..

T-84 series, and especially T-84M/BM Oplot is far superior to Al Khalid.

seriously you lack knowledge about kombat

the other russian guy can explain it very well

No, it is only You, with your poor english, that is not capable to comprehend what I'am talking about.

Kombat is classic GLATGM, that is guided to target in LOS (Line of Sight) mode like all "Beam Rider" type of GLATGM's, and have only a range of 5,000m. While for example Israeli LAHAT that is BLOS (Beyond Line of Sight) GLATGM type, can be guided by it's own platform, other platform or forward observer, so there is not needed any contact with enemy by platform firing this type of ammunition. LAHAT have a range of 8,000m.

And there were more advanced developments like XM1111 MRM-KE/CE, also BLOS ammunition, with a range of 12,000m.

Both LAHAT and XM1111 were Direct Attack/Top Attack munitions, while Kombat or 9M119 are only Direct Attack weapons.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

the al zarar program was to bring it to t80UD level(as per ukrainian sources),and in firepower it matches the t80UD,surpass in electronics gadgets,while is inferior in armour.protection level

Its simple PR leaflet..

Firepower : Al-zarar use same 125mm cannon as you posted in another thread than its even degraded than T-72M1 2A46M.

Mobility: What is the range of the tank with new engines compare to T-80 ?

al khalid waste of money!?

al khalid is already superior to t80UD/t84

Its even degraded than T-72M1 ( Updated )

Chinese tanks are nothing but mutant version of Russian tanks with huge flaws in designing tanks..

 

[Damian]

Mobility: What is the range of the tank with new engines compare to T-80 ?

Al Khalid use the same engine as T-80UD, fuel storage should be similiar.

 

[farhan_9909]

Well You are ignorant.



There are no photos. You should try to use imageshack to post photos, then these will be visible for everyone.



Not poorly placed, but it have a wrong geometry for it's composite armor placement. It is ammusing that You don't know the principle of safe manouvering angles. It was discussed on this forum so many times.



First I would refuse such offer. Second, this is such an old and known fact for countries that are manufacturing tanks for much longer time, that I do not understand why newcomers to tank industry don't learn from them, but just repeat the same mistakes all over again.



I said about geometry You fool, it only shows Your education level if You don't see difference between geometry and placement.



This shows turret geometry comparrision between T-90A/S welded turret, and ZTZ-98/99 (Al Khalid have similiar turret geometry) and Type 10 from Japan.

T-90A/S and T-84M Oplot turrets, the same principle of hiding the weak side turret armor, behind strong frontal armor, within vehicle frontal 60-70 degrees arc.

As a comparrision, western tanks have thick side turret armor to achieve desired protection levels within their frontal arc.

Chinese designs, there is also Al Khalid there, the red circle shows place where weak side armor is most exposed.

I have much more of such drawings.



And these photos shows superiority of armor protection of Ukrainian tank.



Nothing superior, Soviet FCS is comparable to western FCS in many terms, in some is a bit inferior, but not that much as You think.
T-80UD used by Pakistan also have thermal imagers, based on French technology, what You want to proove here?
Bigger turret does not mean better turret, and the fact You need more space for internal upgrades, only shows Your inferiority in electronics minimalization.
"Big calliber gun" is just a slogan, the same calliber, 125mm is used around the globe by many designs, nothing superior here.



T-84 series, and especially T-84M/BM Oplot is far superior to Al Khalid.



No, it is only You, with your poor english, that is not capable to comprehend what I'am talking about.

Kombat is classic GLATGM, that is guided to target in LOS (Line of Sight) mode like all "Beam Rider" type of GLATGM's, and have only a range of 5,000m. While for example Israeli LAHAT that is BLOS (Beyond Line of Sight) GLATGM type, can be guided by it's own platform, other platform or forward observer, so there is not needed any contact with enemy by platform firing this type of ammunition. LAHAT have a range of 8,000m.

And there were more advanced developments like XM1111 MRM-KE/CE, also BLOS ammunition, with a range of 12,000m.

Both LAHAT and XM1111 were Direct Attack/Top Attack munitions, while Kombat or 9M119 are only Direct Attack weapons.

ignorant or uneducated?

i dnt know what you want to prove with these self created images.
it means AL KHALID didnt went through testing phase.
no armour test nothing
and the guy nabil is actually lying?

i mean you have never been inside AK.
you dnt even know the actuall thickness of AK armour.
these are just your useless claims without any solid official claim

and we are making tanks since 70's..roughly 50 years.
a 3rd gen tank in production.as well
successfull development of another variant AK1 (1900kg more weight)
and another variant with 1500hp engine (6td-4??) and 55tonnes weight just 2-3years remaining development time.(more probably a new tank)

watch this video it include most of the pictures(of different kind of era layout)



Al-Khalid tank ( Type 90-IIM / MBT-2000 ) - YouTube
in the previous pages i have posted the difference b/w ak and ak1 and there armour protection level as well

 

[farhan_9909]

a true reply for a guestimater


HOW do you know?
You are out to disprove a theory(lets call it that for
your sake).. and have not presented anything to
disprove it on an evidential basis other than
guesstimates.
What is the interior of the AK turrent like? Where are the three plan views?
Where are the multiple photographs from
different angles? I am an engineer, not a scientist.. I work on what
I can do and have seen.
I worked on the AK's Radio system, I sat in the
darn thing..took a ride.
Every AK-1 and AK(upgrades flowing downstream)
will have my signature on it whenever its crew talks to anyone outside of the tank. I did not care
to ask about the armour thickness, but only what
it could stop. Everything else they would not tell
the person they trust with their communication so
its safe to say that its designed to stop a KE and
APFDS round. So even to me these figures are alien and
unrelated. If the Sky is not blue, then show me that it is not
blue...
You gonna graduate soon, better be able to make
your case then.


more


these I worked on, so I can tell you their size.
The Radio is about 10x15x7.. The autoloader/
cooling/aircon/etc electronics are all solid state
which comes in various shielding not exceeding
6x6x6. The mechanicals are a tight fit(you cannot
move around much). Im looking for a video that shows the interior so
that you can judge.
I dont have a theory, I only see a tank.. make the
radio.
If you have expertise(say of five to ten years) in
the field where you can say with authority (preferably a diploma or degree) in armoured
vehicle engineering that it is impossible to do so.
I would believe you.. till then.. Ill believe the other
claim.
Im just a judge here who has actually seen the
thing and spoken to the people who make it..rather than be a couch potato critique

 

[farhan_9909]

Pakistan's Al Khalid Tank, widely considered one
of the most competent Main Battle Tanks (MBTs)
in the global arms market, has received an
update, according to GrandeStrategy sources. This
new version of Al-Khalid is said to be ready for
production, although orders are yet to be placed for production to begin. The Al Khalid II is said to
have a new armor that has been tested to defeat
all known 120mm and 125mm rounds. This
"special" armor is a major technological
breakthrough for Pakistan. The tank has received
a new transmission and revised electronic turret control. The Al Khalid II has a new Integrated Battle
Management System (IBMS) and active threat-
protection system, the latter being an upgrade
from the passive system in the earlier model. The
tank is now perhaps the most heavily weaponized
per tonnage of any tank, being able to carry 49 125mm rounds, 1,500 12.7mm and 7,100
7.62mm rounds. Rumors suggest that Saudi Arabia is ready to
procure the Al Khalid II but not going through
with the deal because of differences with the
political administration in Pakistan. Rumors also
indicate that these relate to the kickbacks
demanded by Pakistan's infamously corrupt President Asif Zardari, nicknamed "Mr.10%". . The specifications surfaced about T-90S were
nothing special so much so that T-80ud was
better in some aspects like a more reliable
engine, ballistic computer and so on. To say the
AK=T-90S is like saying T-80ud=AK which is far
from truth. Yes the Russians have been making tanks fro more than 70 years and have earned
tremendous capabilities in tank design but their
tank do suffer by some basic design limitations
which has been highlighted time and again. An
example is T-90S and even M model where tank
crew not only have a crampy interior but lack of Panoramic vision, a Battle Management System
and even datalink ability which limits its battle
field awareness, hence survivability. One wonders
why India took delivery of the same MBT but in
three different versions that too in a span of less
than 8 years?? Its not just upgrading, rather rectifying issues surfacing in each version from S
to M to AM. Having no intentions to degrade
Russian engineering and technological expertise,
both T-80 and T-90 have K-5 armor and a
powerful 125 mm main gun which is among the
best out there.

 

[farhan_9909]

lahat is useless against tank with varta/shtora

as i told you before

someone should tag that russian guy(he posted in the tank gun thread)

he knows alot about this stuff

 

[Damian]

i dnt know what you want to prove with these self created images.
it means AL KHALID didnt went through testing phase.
no armour test nothing
and the guy nabil is actually lying?

i mean you have never been inside AK.
you dnt even know the actuall thickness of AK armour.
these are just your useless claims without any solid official claim

My drawings are based on knowledge of people from Russia, Ukraine, EU countries, USA and some Asia countries. So You says that the knowledge of allmost whole world is nothing compared to claims of some Pakistani?

And I do not know the actuall thickness of Al Khalid tank, but to your butt hurt information, little silly pakistani fellow, I know about tanks more than You, and I know where to watch, to find what I need. Side turret armor is not more than ~50-80mm, this is obvious, we can say this due to observation of commander hatch and cupola placement. Simple as that.

and we are making tanks since 70's..roughly 50 years.
a 3rd gen tank in production.as well
successfull development of another variant AK1 (1900kg more weight)
and another variant with 1500hp engine (6td-4??) and 55tonnes weight just 2-3years remaining development time.(more probably a new tank)

If You think that building clones of T-54 and T-55 makes You industrial power in tank designing, then You are or stupid, or it is just your propaganda.

And weight have nothing to do with protection of vehicle without understanding how this protection is achieved.

watch this video it include most of the pictures(of different kind of era layout)



Al-Khalid tank ( Type 90-IIM / MBT-2000 ) - YouTube
in the previous pages i have posted the difference b/w ak and ak1 and there armour protection level as well

This video actually prooves everything I said... and jeeze men, it is a must that in each video from muslic country such horrific music must be added, damn...

As for the rest of this butt hurt babble talk. I will not answer untill You learn how to properly write in english... I'am barely capable to understand anything from this... writing.

If You claim to be engineer, You should be educated enough to have capability of properly writing in different languages.

But as a positive side of this amusing discussion, your reaction proves that I'am right. People from countries like you react at any criticism that is truth, in such funny emotional way.

I wonder what will be next? Death to the infidel?

 

[p2prada]

Are there good pictures of AK-2 available? I think we have only seen AK-Is on the internet.

 

[farhan_9909]

My drawings are based on knowledge of people from Russia, Ukraine, EU countries, USA and some Asia countries. So You says that the knowledge of allmost whole world is nothing compared to claims of some Pakistani?

And I do not know the actuall thickness of Al Khalid tank, but to your butt hurt information, little silly pakistani fellow, I know about tanks more than You, and I know where to watch, to find what I need. Side turret armor is not more than ~50-80mm, this is obvious, we can say this due to observation of commander hatch and cupola placement. Simple as that.



If You think that building clones of T-54 and T-55 makes You industrial power in tank designing, then You are or stupid, or it is just your propaganda.

And weight have nothing to do with protection of vehicle without understanding how this protection is achieved.



This video actually prooves everything I said... and jeeze men, it is a must that in each video from muslic country such horrific music must be added, damn...

As for the rest of this butt hurt babble talk. I will not answer untill You learn how to properly write in english... I'am barely capable to understand anything from this... writing.

If You claim to be engineer, You should be educated enough to have capability of properly writing in different languages.

But as a positive side of this amusing discussion, your reaction proves that I'am right. People from countries like you react at any criticism that is truth, in such funny emotional way.

I wonder what will be next? Death to the infidel?

lol that was oscar reply for a guestimater(you???)

and i am nt a engineer.bt rather in medical field

well seriously in the vary first day when you said AK is a crap.i ignored youbt again you came here defaming AK again

well i agree you do have alot of knowledge regarding tanks bt with sheer ignorism(zero knowledge better)

your a product of inferiority complex from china and muslim countries
because as far as i know your country till date has nt even designed a 100% indigenous APC

and the engineers at HIT are well aware of these fact..keep your suggestions for your country

and plzz dnt leave a reply to my this post

 

[farhan_9909]

Are there good pictures of AK-2 available? I think we have only seen AK-Is on the internet.

no there are no pictures of AK2 available
still underdevelopment(2015-16)

 

[p2prada]

your a product of inferiority complex from china and muslim countries
because as far as i know your country till date has nt even designed a 100% indigenous APC

I wouldn't be so sure. The Polish have researched a lot on tanks too.

There is a chance India may order 300 of their Anders UCP for our light tank needs in the North East and North.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Al Khalid use the same engine as T-80UD, fuel storage should be similiar.

I was taking about Al-zarar comparison as raised with T-80..

 

[farhan_9909]

I wouldn't be so sure. The Polish have researched a lot on tanks too.

There is a chance India may order 300 of their Anders UCP for our light tank needs in the North East and North.

hmmm
seems like the turret is naturaly fixed

or he has some drawing for this as well

 

[Damian]

WPB Anders use low profile manned turret, all crew sits below turret race ring, and ammunition is completely isolated in turret bustle. This increase crew survivability without a need for heavy turret armor.

WPB Anders is medium universal combat platform, so it can be used as a light tank, infantry fighting vehicle or any other role, here are several other variants.

IFV with manned turret Hitfist-30P.

IFV with unmanned turret Hitfist-OWS.

Light Tank variant with Polish designed low profile turret armed with 120mm smoothbore gun.

There were allready performed firing tests of Light Tank with 120mm smoothbore gun.

And remember, this is not even prototype, but single builded technology demonstrator, all these variants are builded on the one and same hull.

So really my country do not have anything to be shame off. Even Americans were interested in WPB Anders design solution for their GCV IFV.

My country is also working on Hybrid engine for armored fighting vehicles, as well as on developing new MBT with as many common components with new lighter tracked platforms as possible to improve logistics.

There is also a lot of other work, not known to many people outside my country, simply because in my country instead of stupid advertisement, engineers are more focused on real work.

 

[farhan_9909]

I was taking about Al-zarar comparison as raised with T-80..

450km as per wiki

 

[Damian]

Too add something more.

Several proposed (from many more) variants.

Mobility tests.

Firing tests.

Hmmm, so it seems we developed something on our own, and it is impressive despite a fact of very limited budget our engineers had.

OBRUM spented only 20.000000 PLN = 5996462.09 USD if I'am correct.