Al-Khalid MBT And Pakistani Armour

farhan_9909

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the al zarar program was to bring it to t80UD level(as per ukrainian sources)

and in firepower it matches the t80UD
surpass in electronics gadgets

while is inferior in armour.
protection level
 

farhan_9909

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just check out the specs

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Zarar

it is indeed comparable to (t-72)upgraded

upgraded engine(just 520hp in type59)
weight 40tonnes(36tonnes for type59)
125mm smoothbore(100-105mm rifled gun)

new FCS/GCS
AC
laser threat warning system

and upgraded armour as well(confirmed by this incident even after hits from multiple RPG's after disabling by IED the crew survived(courtesy maj.talat)
 

farhan_9909

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Al-Zarrar - Heavy Industries Taxila of Pakistan has introduced the Al-Zarar Main Battle Tank. The Al-
Zarrar series was designed to improve and rebuild
the Pakistani army's Type 59 tanks by way of
more modern armament, fire control, defensive
equipment, etc
Improvements include:
125 mm smoothbore gun, firing APFSDS, HEAT-FS and HE-FS. Semi-automatic loading and image Stabilized fire control.
730 hp Engine for improved mobility.
Improved suspension.
Improved defense with explosive reactive armour and anti-mine cover underneath.
 

farhan_9909

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muzzle velocity of naiza DU round is 1730m/s

i dnt think the AK may use this anymore now
bt rather the naiza 2(no official specs as of now) and naiza 3 only to be compatible with AK2(bustle autoloader for long rod penetrator)
 

Damian

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Clear Photo..
This perfectly shows, that under very thin outer screens, there is nothing more than ZTZ-56/69 cast turret based on T-54/55 series. Primitive and simple protection that is inefficent against any more capable shaped charge warhead.

Tanks have a service life up to 40 years. Over that amount of time armour technology improves. Fixed armour is for life while modular is easily changed and replaced with even more advanced packages. The advantages don't end there. Replacement of damaged modules is easily done in the field while damage to fixed armour compromises the tank. Emptying modules in low threat situations also improves logistics.
All composite armors are by nature modular or semi-modular, it is because they are made from two elements, the base turret structure with attachements for armor modules with composite armor filler or cavitiesfor composite armor filler, in both solutions, armor repair or replacement is easy, if filler is not integral part of turret structure, like on some soviet tanks.

Was thinking, IMI CL-2579 archiving same penetration at 2kms, Why such DU heavy round preform so bad ?
Because of short penetrator, they use the same, not modified autoloader as Chinese tanks and older T-72 variants.

Crew of the destroyed Al- Zarrar MBT survived without injuries and tank was recovered as neither turret of chassis of Al-Zarrar MBT was penetrated which also proved the recent upgrade was successful
This is obviously not truth.

And it seems Your knowledge is complete 0. Holes in armor made by shaped charge jet are very, very small, especially the ones from RPG's, on such photos it is immposible to see such holes.

Maybe first educate yourself, before You start spreading nonsense.

look at this photo..the main turret is nt penetrated..it is just the armour upgrade on alzarar (the original t59 turret doesnt has such armour bt rather a bare turret)
As above, how You can notice any hole after penetration, when such hole is such small that You can barely put there, tip of a pencile?

As I said, educate Yourself, because Your knowledge is in fact primitive, and full of false belife that your military scientific industry represent something more than a primitive level. Al Zarrar have primitive, simple spaced armor, You can delude yourself that it is opposite, but all clues and sources, seems to prove my opinion.

So You just talk the same nonsense as repairing the burn out tank, which is immposible without remelting it and in fact building new vehicle.

compare al zarar turret armour upgrade with this bare turret t59

But it is just the same turret, only that of Al Zarrar recived some upgrades and outer screen layer, that changes it's visual apparence, but as we can see, under the screen, there is just the same, cast turret.

Once again, educate yourself.

@farhan_9909

If You think that copy paste from some silly, unreliable sources will make any effect on me, or anyone with knowledge about tanks, then You are wrong... but please, continue, this is entertaining and amusing to see amateur at work. :D

I start to understand Indians opinion about Pakistanis.
 
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farhan_9909

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This perfectly shows, that under very thin outer screens, there is nothing more than ZTZ-56/69 cast turret based on T-54/55 series. Primitive and simple protection that is inefficent against any more capable shaped charge warhead.



All composite armors are by nature modular or semi-modular, it is because they are made from two elements, the base turret structure with attachements for armor modules with composite armor filler or cavitiesfor composite armor filler, in both solutions, armor repair or replacement is easy, if filler is not integral part of turret structure, like on some soviet tanks.



Because of short penetrator, they use the same, not modified autoloader as Chinese tanks and older T-72 variants.



This is obviously not truth.

And it seems Your knowledge is complete 0. Holes in armor made by shaped charge jet are very, very small, especially the ones from RPG's, on such photos it is immposible to see such holes.

Maybe first educate yourself, before You start spreading nonsense.



As above, how You can notice any hole after penetration, when such hole is such small that You can barely put there, tip of a pencile?

As I said, educate Yourself, because Your knowledge is in fact primitive, and full of false belife that your military scientific industry represent something more than a primitive level. Al Zarrar have primitive, simple spaced armor, You can delude yourself that it is opposite, but all clues and sources, seems to prove my opinion.

So You just talk the same nonsense as repairing the burn out tank, which is immposible without remelting it and in fact building new vehicle.



But it is just the same turret, only that of Al Zarrar recived some upgrades and outer screen layer, that changes it's visual apparence, but as we can see, under the screen, there is just the same, cast turret.

Once again, educate yourself.

@farhan_9909

If You think that copy paste from some silly, unreliable sources will make any effect on me, or anyone with knowledge about tanks, then You are wrong... but please, continue, this is entertaining and amusing to see amateur at work. :D

I start to understand Indians opinion about Pakistanis.
than it means the major rank officer was lying?
or you.inspected the tank in swat and attended the martyr funeral?

or your just making false claim?

select yourself one.

indeed i might nt have as much knowledge as you

bt one thing is that i am nt into stupid ignorism

well we could nt change the whole turret..
bt it is evident from the incident that al zarar is a decent platform..


indeed my knowledge regarding such things is limited because this is nt related to the field i am into

bt i do have a slight amount of knowledge.
 

farhan_9909

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i just dnt undermine any country capabilities neither there weapons

anyway the autoloader problem for nt firing enough long rod penetrator will be addressed by a new autoloader
 

Damian

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than it means the major rank officer was lying?
Yes, or he is just poorly akowledged with this issue. I seen many silly fantasies made by military personell, despite respect for them, they are not nececary specialists in many terms when it comes to military technology, they know how to use it, but majority of them are just not interested in all details.

or you.inspected the tank in swat and attended the martyr funeral?
I do not need to inspect a tank, to know what happend. In this case we have a hit on a tank, we know what armament and ammunition for it is used and how it is stored inside vehicle, vehicle started to burn, definetly ammunition deflagrated, and temperature of flames was so high that it melted everything that it could and make enough structural damage to torsion bars that suspension just collapsed.

indeed i might nt have as much knowledge as you

bt one thing is that i am nt into stupid ignorism
The only ignorant here is You. Ignorance is typical for people poorly educated in discussed subject.

To put this in simple words, I don't have a knowledge about mating habits of beavers, so I do not talk about them, if I would, then in such subject I would be ignorant. You don't have a knowledge about tanks, but You unfortunetly talk about this with such certainity that this is amusing, really.

well we could nt change the whole turret..
bt it is evident from the incident that al zarar is a decent platform..
This incident is evident that insurgents had no problems in at least disabling tank. And Al Zarrar by all world class standards is just simple modernization of obsolete tank. It seems that only You are excited in primitive modernization of obsolete tank.

i just dnt undermine any country capabilities neither there weapons
You are overestimating your own capabilities, it is the first step to loose any war.

anyway the autoloader problem for nt firing enough long rod penetrator will be addressed by a new autoloader
We will see.
 

Kunal Biswas

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i just dnt undermine any country capabilities neither there weapons
This is a intellectual debate on tanks and mainly there limitation which should be taken by no mean in political sense..
This debate is purely based on educational purpose..

than it means the major rank officer was lying?
or you.inspected the tank in swat and attended the martyr funeral?

indeed i might nt have as much knowledge as you

well we could nt change the whole turret..
bt it is evident from the incident that al zarar is a decent platform...
Every one does, Even US & Russian and others..
Institutional lies..
 

farhan_9909

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it means they were playing with the lives of those soldiers?

just for the sake of al zarar repo?

what army will gain from that?

if the soldier really would have died inside the tanks

why the family of those soldier didnt questioned the interview and the PA official claim include the major?
 

Damian

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it means they were playing with the lives of those soldiers?

just for the sake of al zarar repo?

what army will gain from that?

if the soldier really would have died inside the tanks

why the family of those soldier didnt questioned the interview and the PA official claim include the major?
But Your army plays with soldiers life, exactly because it's waste money on Al Zarrar and Al Khalid, instead for example to work closely with Ukraine by purchase of more T-80UD, or more modern T-84 or T-84M Oplot. Simple as that.

As for soldiers dying, they could die inside vehicle, they could die in hospital, or they are just horribly wounded. You ever seen a human body in burned out vehicle? I seen such photos, and it's not nice.

Besides this your country, goverment and army are not very opened to wide public compared to western standards... it's easy to hide some things.
 

farhan_9909

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But Your army plays with soldiers life, exactly because it's waste money on Al Zarrar and Al Khalid, instead for example to work closely with Ukraine by purchase of more T-80UD, or more modern T-84 or T-84M Oplot. Simple as that.

As for soldiers dying, they could die inside vehicle, they could die in hospital, or they are just horribly wounded. You ever seen a human body in burned out vehicle? I seen such photos, and it's not nice.

Besides this your country, goverment and army are not very opened to wide public compared to western standards... it's easy to hide some things.
and who told you say?
i mean dnt you find it silly making silly claims about a country whom you dnt even know?

al khalid waste of money!?

al khalid is already superior to t80UD/t84

and roughly comparable to the oplot(note:M)

pakistan army has both the tanks so they know about both of them and they said al khalid is much better than t80UD(bought just as a stop gap measure)

AL KHALID I is already in service with ammo capacity increased to 49.
and the new locally manufactured gun

And ukraine despite no more t80UD

are helping us in al khalid upgradation
 

Damian

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and who told you say?
i mean dnt you find it silly making silly claims about a country whom you dnt even know?
It is just pure logic.

al khalid waste of money!?

al khalid is already superior to t80UD/t84

and roughly comparable to the oplot(note:M)
It is not truth, especially in terms of armor protection.

Al Khalid have huge ballistic holes in it's protection.

Let's just compare:



As we can see ERA coverage of Al Khalid is much less precise than in T-80UD below:



Also turret geometry of T-80UD is far superior.

So by such claims it seems that Pakistanis also lack the basic knowledge on the principles of tank designing... how typical.

pakistan army has both the tanks so they know about both of them and they said al khalid is much better than t80UD(bought just as a stop gap measure)
IMHO national pride propaganda, typical for countries with inferiority complex.

AL KHALID I is already in service with ammo capacity increased to 49.
and the new locally manufactured gun
And You think this makes it better than T-80UD?

And ukraine despite no more t80UD
They can manufacture T-80UD, T-84 and T-84 Oplot series, the only issue to solve is money.

are helping us in al khalid upgradation
Nothing strange, Ukrainians have on of the best tank designing bureaus around the world, they are even better than Russians, after all Kharkiv was one of the most, if not the most innovative designing bureaus in Soviet Union.
 

farhan_9909

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than your pure logic is totally wrong.

ol era coverage.
well we manufacture ERA locally of two types
and you think it is a difficult task to give more ERA coverage to AK?

national propaganda?
well sir seriously you to change your nonsense pure logic..
lol inferiority complex XD.

again you think the engineers in HIT are just matric grade pass

the turret of AK is much bigger than on t80UD(despite no ERA)
giving more for upgrades

and ukrainian are key people involved in helping us.

and AK1 simply surpass t84
and on par with OPLOT M

compare yourself
 

farhan_9909

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than your pure logic is totally wrong.

ol era coverage.
well we manufacture ERA locally of two types
and you think it is a difficult task to give more ERA coverage to AK?

national propaganda?
well sir seriously you to change your nonsense pure logic..
lol inferiority complex XD.

again you think the engineers in HIT are just matric grade pass

the turret of AK is much bigger than on t80UD(despite no ERA)
giving more for upgrades

and ukrainian are key people involved in helping us.

and AK1 simply surpass t84
and on par with OPLOT M

compare yourself
 

farhan_9909

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aorak mk1 ERA

articles.janes.com/articles/Janes-Armour-and-Artillery-Upgrades/Institute-of-Industrial-Control-Systems-AORAK-Mk-1-explosive-reactive-armour-Pakistan.html

pdf site is down otherwise i would have posted about the most latest aorak mk2 as well
 

Damian

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than your pure logic is totally wrong.
No, it is because I'am talking with poor educated person, who does not even know, about what I'am talking about.

ol era coverage.
well we manufacture ERA locally of two types
and you think it is a difficult task to give more ERA coverage to AK?
I don't care if You produce something locally, You can even clone elephants, it is not important, important is turret geometry, and no, You can't place more ERA, because turret geometry do not permitts this.

It is ammusing for Asian nations, but all of them seems to not understand or not take enough focus on details like safe manouvering angles principle, that says, the vehicle frontal protection is achieved within frontal arc of 60-70 degrees (30-35 degrees for left or right side of vehicle) from the hull/turret longitudinal axis. Neither Chinese tanks, neither Al Khalid meets this requirement due to poor side hull protection, and turret geometry that is not designed for a tank with such composite armor placement.

national propaganda?
well sir seriously you to change your nonsense pure logic..
lol inferiority complex XD.
Well seems that obvious things are not obvious for You?

the turret of AK is much bigger than on t80UD(despite no ERA)
giving more for upgrades
Size of a turret is not important, in fact what is important is placement and thickness of composite armor. In Al Khalid composite armor is only on the turret front, while highly exposed at the frontal arc, side turret surfaces are only protected by thin RHA armor, just like on Chinese tanks.

and AK1 simply surpass t84
and on par with OPLOT M

compare yourself
1) Nonsense,
2) I compared, and I say, that what You say is nonsense. I proved many times that any of your argument is nonsense based on Your silly pseudo patriotism and this silly national pride withot any back up.
 

farhan_9909

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beside this PAK has acquired kombat atgm for AK and AK1

and i doubt there is anything comparable to kombat(8kg warhead) and beam ride(no tracking) unless it hit the target(ukrainian claimed so)

rusdian refleks as well one undisclosed local atgm
 

Damian

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Kombat as well as 9M119 and such GLATGM's are just previous generation without a future. Future lies in GLATGM's with BLOS and Top Attack capabilities. With Kombat or 9M119 You still need to see enemy, and You can be seen by enemy. And this is not thing You want with something such slow like GLATGM.
 

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