ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[stat231]

Its a complicated process, its roll out depends on many factors. including the status of LCAmk1a, if every thing going without any issues, then around end of 2024 or early 2025, if ada consider LSP/FOC level jet in the first place then in 2025 or later.

I am sorry i am new here but how does mk1a affect mk2 (is it the production line?)

 

[johnj]

I am sorry i am new here but how does mk1a affect mk2 (is it the production line?)

Involvement of ADA, and HAL business.
MK1A is important for HAL to keep fighter jet production line alive, a small issue may case involvement of ADA, and ADA redirect top engineers from other programs, mainly from MK2, may case delay in assembly process of mk2. Production line also need ADA top engineers support [mk2]

 

[Azaad]

 

[Azaad]

 

[Azaad]

 

[Tshering22]

There are multiple reports stating that the ToT is a landmark agreement while a few others say that the IP will rest with the US (which is logical from a US pov). This makes me wonder why did we not accept Rolls Royce's proposal of developing a completely new engine from scratch when they were literally dancing around Indian government officials, with the commitment to share IP rights.

Based on whatever is available to the public, the GE414 & its derivative will require US export clearance in the future, meaning that we won't be able to get export license approval to countries like Argentina, South Africa, etc. who want to buy a jet independent of American tech & are politically at odds with the American state.

What do you guys think?

 

[Blademaster]

There are multiple reports stating that the ToT is a landmark agreement while a few others say that the IP will rest with the US (which is logical from a US pov). This makes me wonder why did we not accept Rolls Royce's proposal of developing a completely new engine from scratch when they were literally dancing around Indian government officials, with the commitment to share IP rights.

Based on whatever is available to the public, the GE414 & its derivative will require US export clearance in the future, meaning that we won't be able to get export license approval to countries like Argentina, South Africa, etc. who want to buy a jet independent of American tech & are politically at odds with the American state.

What do you guys think?

Of course we will need US export clearance for outside sales but what is far more important and the only thing that matters is that we can license produce the engine in great numbers and build up a chain of supply impervious to any potential sanctions that allows us to fortify our air force against the combined threat of China and Pakistan. Everything else is secondary and can be bargained or negotiated. But that first criteria is nonnegotiable and that is what Modi and GoI are trying to do. If we want outside sales badly, then we need to fund our Kaveri program all the way through no ifs or buts or maybes about it. And that is a separate conversation because we have competing requirements & interests very much like guns vs butter debate. Parliament have to come to a resolution that the Kaveri program must be funded at all costs to get our indigenous engine that can be used across all spectrum. Modi and GoI cannot make that decision alone.

 

[Tshering22]

Of course, we will need US export clearance for outside sales but what is far more important and the only thing that matters is that we can license produce the engine in great numbers and build up a chain of supply impervious to any potential sanctions that allow us to fortify our air force against the combined threat of China and Pakistan.

That bold part is the whole point of me asking that question. Arm-twisting the UK was going to be much easier than trying that with the US. Remember, we are talking about a country that walked out of thousands of trade agreements worth hundreds of billions of dollars in Russia over the whim of the same elites that control that country.

Do you really think that an agreement for 1,200+ engines would matter to them? Tomorrow if we have to take a military position that requires us to take unilateral actions in our neighbourhood, what are the chances of a stoppage of engine tech sharing? I doubt that the myopic IAS brass sitting inside the Ministry of Defence has any concern for all this.

Everything else is secondary and can be bargained or negotiated. But that first criteria is nonnegotiable and that is what Modi and GoI are trying to do.

They are doing it with a country that is infamous for walking out of military agreements and imposing sanctions at whim. Remember, the US can ground our entire future air force fleet with one decision. I would say it would have made better sense to get RR or Safran even if they charged double the contract price that US is charging. Autonomy over short-term monetary gains.

If we want outside sales badly, then we need to fund our Kaveri program all the way through no ifs or buts or maybes about it. And that is a separate conversation because we have competing requirements & interests very much like "guns vs butter" debate.

I agree on the continued funding of Kaveri. But Kaveri needs to have timelines & punitive actions built into its funding agreement. Without that, we are simply throwing the funds into a gutter.

We all studied the "guns vs butter" debate in civics in our schools but personally, to me, the butter can exist only if there are guns to protect it; and also, selling guns gives money for the butter. It's a stupid socialist, altruistic debate that had no real justification except emasculating the Indian geo-strategic psyche over seven decades.

Parliament have to come to a resolution that the Kaveri program must be funded at all costs to get our indigenous engine that can be used across all spectrum. Modi and GoI cannot make that decision alone.

Dry Kaveri has shown success in Ghatak tests. I hope that we are ready for the larger one at least for the AMCA Mk2 models.

 

[Blademaster]

That bold part is the whole point of me asking that question. Arm-twisting the UK was going to be much easier than trying that with the US. Remember, we are talking about a country that walked out of thousands of trade agreements worth hundreds of billions of dollars in Russia over the whim of the same elites that control that country.

Do you really think that an agreement for 1,200+ engines would matter to them? Tomorrow if we have to take a military position that requires us to take unilateral actions in our neighbourhood, what are the chances of a stoppage of engine tech sharing? I doubt that the myopic IAS brass sitting inside the Ministry of Defence has any concern for all this.

We are getting technology (albiet not 100%) that will speed up India's goal of being self reliant. GoI foresees that the next decade there will be no major issues between India and US because India is highly focused on building up its economy and needs US goodwill to maintain that growth and is milking that conflict between US and China to get great benefits. Its all about walking a tightrope and juggling different sizes of balls while getting from Peak A to Peak B. We shall see.

They are doing it with a country that is infamous for walking out of military agreements and imposing sanctions at whim. Remember, the US can ground our entire future air force fleet with one decision. I would say it would have made better sense to get RR or Safran even if they charged double the contract price that US is charging. Autonomy over short-term monetary gains.

Modi and GoI knows this but they also know that they can play the US as well. This is high stakes poker with a long con play.

I agree on the continued funding of Kaveri. But Kaveri needs to have timelines & punitive actions built into its funding agreement. Without that, we are simply throwing the funds into a gutter.

We all studied the "guns vs butter" debate in civics in our schools but personally, to me, the butter can exist only if there are guns to protect it; and also, selling guns gives money for the butter. It's a stupid socialist, altruistic debate that had no real justification except emasculating the Indian geo-strategic psyche over seven decades.

The guns vs butter debate is not a socialist altruistic debate. It is a democracy debate. Politicians have to get votes and what matters to voters the most, guns & bullets or milk & butter? It is a very real and in your face issue that elected politicians have to contend on a daily basis. You cannot ignore it or get around it. Only dictatorships run countries can.

Dry Kaveri has shown success in Ghatak tests. I hope that we are ready for the larger one at least for the AMCA Mk2 models.

I pray that we continue that momentum. We need to keep the momentum going no matter the costs.

 

[Azaad]

That bold part is the whole point of me asking that question. Arm-twisting the UK was going to be much easier than trying that with the US. Remember, we are talking about a country that walked out of thousands of trade agreements worth hundreds of billions of dollars in Russia over the whim of the same elites that control that country.

Do you really think that an agreement for 1,200+ engines would matter to them? Tomorrow if we have to take a military position that requires us to take unilateral actions in our neighbourhood, what are the chances of a stoppage of engine tech sharing? I doubt that the myopic IAS brass sitting inside the Ministry of Defence has any concern for all this.



They are doing it with a country that is infamous for walking out of military agreements and imposing sanctions at whim. Remember, the US can ground our entire future air force fleet with one decision. I would say it would have made better sense to get RR or Safran even if they charged double the contract price that US is charging. Autonomy over short-term monetary gains.



I agree on the continued funding of Kaveri. But Kaveri needs to have timelines & punitive actions built into its funding agreement. Without that, we are simply throwing the funds into a gutter.

We all studied the "guns vs butter" debate in civics in our schools but personally, to me, the butter can exist only if there are guns to protect it; and also, selling guns gives money for the butter. It's a stupid socialist, altruistic debate that had no real justification except emasculating the Indian geo-strategic psyche over seven decades.



Dry Kaveri has shown success in Ghatak tests. I hope that we are ready for the larger one at least for the AMCA Mk2 models.

You're either missing the point or conflating two different points. GE F-414 has multiple applications in Mk-2 , TEDBF & AMCA Mk-1 which is why we couldn't rely solely on imports . This is the best risk mitigation strategy possible under the circumstances. Then there's the requirement for a 120 KN TF for which RR SAFRAN & GE still are contenders for the JV.

These are 2 different requirements. Why would we select RR for the first requirement when they didn't make the cut ? As far as the second requirement goes it's still being worked out . We should learn who would be our JV partner shortly ( hopefully ).

 

[spacemarine2023]

This deal is better we are getting from RR and Safran,
also Americans are true to the legal contracts which they sign so the timelines will be honoured by them, India has good experience on that front with Americans till now.

India is getting compositions of superalloys, ceramics and composites and on which temp. to cook them. Metallurgical knowledge was critical.
But for casting, forging, machining, welding, additive manufacturing (3D printing), and surface treatments the cookers will need to be set up by GE(Its like Taiwan they can manufacture 3 nm chips but the machines will come from Holland, Germany and US).

All of electronic systems, sensors, actuators will come from US and EU same as GE supply chain for US, knowledge of feedback control algorithms will come.

Engine stringent quality assurance processes knowledge will come but test facilities requires US shipping for now the set up will require extra time not sure that will be added in contract but India do require testbed in future.

Both Safran, RR and chinese has got inputs from GE earlier by US govt support … but its hard to iterate will require 100s of billions for finally setting up the system and processes ..
Better deal than RR and Safran for sure.

Ultimate aim is to achieve 80% by value(not tech) as per the contract so India wont be getting TOT for actual engine machinery but manufacture independent if we can source electronics and sensors inhouse, India will not be able to create pedigree on 414 but the assembly line will help India in long run if we even start manufacturing Indian engine in real sense.

 

[Javelin_Sam]

That bold part is the whole point of me asking that question. Arm-twisting the UK was going to be much easier than trying that with the US. Remember, we are talking about a country that walked out of thousands of trade agreements worth hundreds of billions of dollars in Russia over the whim of the same elites that control that country.

Do you really think that an agreement for 1,200+ engines would matter to them? Tomorrow if we have to take a military position that requires us to take unilateral actions in our neighbourhood, what are the chances of a stoppage of engine tech sharing? I doubt that the myopic IAS brass sitting inside the Ministry of Defence has any concern for all this.



They are doing it with a country that is infamous for walking out of military agreements and imposing sanctions at whim. Remember, the US can ground our entire future air force fleet with one decision. I would say it would have made better sense to get RR or Safran even if they charged double the contract price that US is charging. Autonomy over short-term monetary gains.



I agree on the continued funding of Kaveri. But Kaveri needs to have timelines & punitive actions built into its funding agreement. Without that, we are simply throwing the funds into a gutter.

We all studied the "guns vs butter" debate in civics in our schools but personally, to me, the butter can exist only if there are guns to protect it; and also, selling guns gives money for the butter. It's a stupid socialist, altruistic debate that had no real justification except emasculating the Indian geo-strategic psyche over seven decades.



Dry Kaveri has shown success in Ghatak tests. I hope that we are ready for the larger one at least for the AMCA Mk2 models.

Which Ghatak test? Ghatak is still on drawing board

 

[MonaLazy]

www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/us-seals-key-jet-engine-deal-ahead-of-modi-s-visit-101687114785567.html

US seals key ‘jet engine deal’ ahead of Modi’s visit
By
, Washington:
Jun 19, 2023 05:16 AM IST
The US administration has completed the executive approvals for the manufacture of F414 jet engines in India.
Sealing a key deliverable during Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s state visit to Washington DC, the United States (US) administration has completed the executive approvals for the manufacture of F414 jet engines in India and begun the process of notifying the US Congress about the impending Memorandum of Understanding to be signed between General Electric (GE) and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), people familiar with discussions on the subject said.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi with US President Joe Biden in Oval Office, at White House in Washington,on September 24, 2021. (Reuters)
This is the first time that the US will share what it called a “crown jewel” in its defence capabilities with a non-ally; it is the first time that there will be coproduction of jet engines with a country with which Washington DC doesn’t have a treaty; it is also the first time that the US system is sharing a substantial share of sensitive jet engine technology with a provision for tech transfer ratio to increase.
“It is transformative. India will have access to the full engine. There are no black boxes here. The manufacturing in India is going to start with technology sharing of way over 50% which rises over the production cycle. There will be a flexible licensing agreement. India will have designs and sensitive technology. This is more tech transfer than the US has ever authorised. We are breaking through into new frontiers,” said a person aware of the discussions.
It is understood that commerce, state and defense departments have pushed through executive approvals, with regard to International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR); the administration is notifying the Senate and House armed services and foreign relations committees; and the process will take a few weeks to get to the full Congress. But given the strong bipartisan support India enjoys on the Hill, it is expected to move through smoothly.
In the meantime, during the PM’s visit, GE and HAL will sign an MoU on the manufacturing deal. The jet engines will power Tejas MK 2 fighter planes.
Explaining the significance of the decision, from the American perspective, Sameer Lalwani, a senior expert at the US Institute of Peace (USIP), said, “For the US, this is a significant move – a ‘costly signal’ as social scientists say – to share some highly sensitive technology, which it has never shared with a non-ally. Such transfers can be made possible, not simply with blueprints but from the transmission of tacit and organisational knowledge through a shared ecology of joint research, manufacturing, and supply chains.”
From the Indian perspective, Lalwani said, the deal offered access to better fighter jet engines than what China possessed – “with greater power and efficiency, longer service life, and less maintenance”. “It also offers India a coveted technology cooperation partnership and path to research, design, and produce its own cutting-edge aeroengines and upstream inputs.”
Given the deal’s political importance, Lalwani said, it can help catalyse a much broader defence technology and industrial partnership between the US and India, “ranging from basic science to lab research and development to codevelopment and commercialisation of new capabilities for advanced domains”.
In a recent report arguing for the deal, Heritage Foundation’s John Venable and Jeff Smith noted, “The deal would bolster India’s capacity to field indigenously produced fighters with some of the most powerful and reliable engines in the class, saving decades of research and development costs.” They added that the F414 engine technology transfer will also expand on the “already growing interoperability between US and Indian military systems”.
Under the initiative on critical and emerging technologies (ICET), unveiled by national security advisers Ajit Doval and Jake Sullivan in January, the US acknowledged that it had received an application from GE to “to jointly produce jet engines that could power jet aircraft operated and produced indigenously by India”. During secretary of defense Lloyd Austin and NSA Sullivan’s visit to India this month, they discussed the subject in detail with their Indian counterparts. Those involved in the discussions said that ICET and the leadership of NSAs made a big difference, as did the focus on actual deliverables.

• ABOUT THE AUTHOR
  
  
  Prashant Jha is the Washington DC-based US correspondent of Hindustan Times. He is also the editor of HT Premium. Jha has earlier served as editor-views and national political editor/bureau chief of the paper. He is the author of How the BJP Wins: Inside India's Greatest Election Machine and Battles of the New Republic: A Contemporary History of Nepal.

 

[MonaLazy]

presswire18.com/drdo-hopes-to-get-advanced-technology-from-ge-deal-to-help-indigenous-engine-program/

DRDO hopes to get advanced technology from GE deal to help indigenous engine program

18
Views
DRDO GE Deal: DRDO has high hopes from PM Modi’s US tour from 21st June. Officials of DRDO’s Lab, Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), told that during his/her visit, there is every possibility of an important agreement with the American company GE (General Electronics) to develop jet engines in the country. In an “unprecedented move”, US giant GE has agreed to share technology to manufacture fighter jet engines in India, officials said. The approval of the proposed deal to manufacture jet engines in India will help the country gain expertise in this field.
Know what is GTRE?
Let us tell you that GTRE is a Bengaluru based Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) Ltd.’s laboratory, which is engaged in developing indigenous engines. It has developed the Kaveri engine, which was originally designed to power the LCA Tejas aircraft variant. But due to delay in the project, India had to buy Ge-404 engines for the initial 113 LCA aircraft and Ge-414 for LCA Mark 2. Now they plan to run the fifth generation fighter planes with engines made in India. That’s why the deal with GE is considered important.
Multiple benefits from the deal
The biggest takeaway from the deal, government officials said, is that the percentage of transfer of state-of-the-art technology (ToT) is expected to increase further in the future. With this transfer of technology, the parts will be made in the country and GRTE will get all the knowhow including processes and coatings for crystal blades etc. Officials said the proposed TOT is unprecedented and that GE has not yet transferred technology at this stage to its NATO allies.
future plan
India is striving for self-reliance in the defense sector. After acquiring the technology of jet engine, indigenous fighter aircraft will start being made in the country and our air capability will increase significantly. Also, for this, we will not have to depend on the countries of the world. India is also in talks with France to acquire technology for another large jet aircraft engine for the advanced medium-range fighter aircraft, but the progress is not clear at present. In such a situation, the deal with the American company can prove to be very important for India.
Posted By: Shailendra Kumar

 

[TopWatcher]

presswire18.com/drdo-hopes-to-get-advanced-technology-from-ge-deal-to-help-indigenous-engine-program/

DRDO hopes to get advanced technology from GE deal to help indigenous engine program

18
Views
DRDO GE Deal: DRDO has high hopes from PM Modi’s US tour from 21st June. Officials of DRDO’s Lab, Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), told that during his/her visit, there is every possibility of an important agreement with the American company GE (General Electronics) to develop jet engines in the country. In an “unprecedented move”, US giant GE has agreed to share technology to manufacture fighter jet engines in India, officials said. The approval of the proposed deal to manufacture jet engines in India will help the country gain expertise in this field.
Know what is GTRE?
Let us tell you that GTRE is a Bengaluru based Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) Ltd.’s laboratory, which is engaged in developing indigenous engines. It has developed the Kaveri engine, which was originally designed to power the LCA Tejas aircraft variant. But due to delay in the project, India had to buy Ge-404 engines for the initial 113 LCA aircraft and Ge-414 for LCA Mark 2. Now they plan to run the fifth generation fighter planes with engines made in India. That’s why the deal with GE is considered important.
Multiple benefits from the deal
The biggest takeaway from the deal, government officials said, is that the percentage of transfer of state-of-the-art technology (ToT) is expected to increase further in the future. With this transfer of technology, the parts will be made in the country and GRTE will get all the knowhow including processes and coatings for crystal blades etc. Officials said the proposed TOT is unprecedented and that GE has not yet transferred technology at this stage to its NATO allies.
future plan
India is striving for self-reliance in the defense sector. After acquiring the technology of jet engine, indigenous fighter aircraft will start being made in the country and our air capability will increase significantly. Also, for this, we will not have to depend on the countries of the world. India is also in talks with France to acquire technology for another large jet aircraft engine for the advanced medium-range fighter aircraft, but the progress is not clear at present. In such a situation, the deal with the American company can prove to be very important for India.
Posted By: Shailendra Kumar

Indian govt should twist arms of airlines companies, after all we have given 1000 planes order.

 

[MonaLazy]

First confirmation in a long long time that France is helping India with Kaveri to make it more powerful. Joy!

www.newindianexpress.com/nation/2023/jun/19/jet-engine-deal-with-us-to-boost-indias-airpower-2586462.html

Jet engine deal with US to boost India’s airpower
The much-talked-about General Electric F414 fighter aircraft engines could majorly add to India’s airpower and take forward indigenous fighter aircraft programmes.
Published: 19th June 2023 09:35 AM | Last Updated: 19th June 2023 09:35 AM A+A A-

Image used for representative purposes only. (Photo | Express)
Express News Service
NEW DELHI: The much-talked-about General Electric F414 fighter aircraft engines could majorly add to India’s airpower and take forward indigenous fighter aircraft programmes. Sources say there is a high possibility that, in addition to the other defence-related deals, an agreement on manufacturing GE F414 will also be made. The deal is likely to be announced during Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s state visit to the US, which will eventually lead to the transfer of technology.
In a sign of affirmation of the deal, added the sources, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has already been earmarked to partner with General Electric for the manufacture of the F414. The HAL is the nodal aviation manufacturing organisation having the experience and the necessary infrastructure.
Calling it an important deal in waiting, Ravi Gupta, former DRDO scientist, said the deal can add to the punch which needs a lot of focus. “To date the US has not given such high-end technology to anyone. Let’s wait and watch,” Gupta said. “To make the deal a success it should be binding on the US that it would not pull out of it in between and the transfer of technology should be in totality.”
India has lacked in engine-related technology and with time, it will be sought even more as the Air Force is already down to around 30 combat Squadrons as against a sanctioned strength of 42. While the GE-F414 engines are to be fitted in the Light Combat Aircraft Mk2, the work on twin-engine deck-based fighters is also proceeding.
The first batch of the 40 LCA Tejas inducted in 2016 is fitted with a GE F404 engine bought from General Electric. “India has no dearth of talent and potential but lacks in funds and resources. Our Work on the Kaveri engine programme would have succeeded,” says Gupta.
“Even today we don’t have a test-bedding engine facility in India and to test the thrust produced by the Kaveri prototypes, they were sent to Russia,” he said. Much is going on in terms of adding thrust to the Kaveri engine in France.
It was in December 2021 that Defence Minister Rajnath talked about an agreement between France and India for the indigenous manufacturing of an engine in collaboration with an Indian company under a strategic partnership.
Engine manufacturing involves complex metallurgy and is acknowledged as the weakest link in India’s ‘Make in India’ drive. India’s Kaveri engine programme has been frequently hitting roadblocks.
The Defence Minister had said it was due to national security concerns that India wanted indigenous production.
“India can’t be dependent on foreign technologies, especially after the kind of security challenges we have faced. I need not mention what kind of challenges India has faced,” said Rajnath. Stressing self-reliance, he said, “We have conveyed to friendly countries that keeping India’s national security challenges in mind, we want to manufacture defence products, weapons and ammunition in India.”
HAL to partner with General Electric
In a sign of affirmation of the deal, HAL has already been earmarked to partner with General Electric for the manufacture of the F414. The HAL is the nodal aviation manufacturing organisation having the experience and the necessary infrastructure. India has lacked engine-related technology. The IAF is already down to around 30 combat Squadrons as against a sanctioned strength of 42

 

[spacemarine2023]

Indian govt should twist arms of airlines companies, after all we have given 1000 planes order.

this is private order they want these jets ASAP, cant be done although Indian Govt can ask France to put some offset value in sourcing parts of Civilian Jets from India

 

[TopWatcher]

this is private order they want these jets ASAP, cant be done although Indian Govt can ask France to put some offset value in sourcing parts of Civilian Jets from India

I think France till now not invested offset of Rafeal deal even.

 

[TopWatcher]

“India has no dearth of talent and potential but lacks in funds and resources. Our Work on the Kaveri engine programme would have succeeded,” says Gupta.

I don't know why GTRE not able to make workable engine till now. Apart from resources, I think we lacking brilliant mind also.

Rather than going to various nations asking technology , can invest same money here and provide resources.

 

[spacemarine2023]

I think France till now not invested offset of Rafeal deal even.

thats something Govt to take care to make sure contracts are followed, Americans despite all their malaises are better with following legal contracts.