ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[spacemarine2023]

I don't know why GTRE not able to make workable engine till now. Apart from resources, I think we lacking brilliant mind also.

Rather than going to various nations asking technology , can invest same money here and provide resources.

Funds are main blocker, to perfect a superalloy requires numerous iterations, time, money and govt backing

 

[MonaLazy]

 

[MirageBlue]

"3 times more engine life against corrosion resistance"

Lol..kuch bhi!

 

[MonaLazy]

"3 times more engine life against corrosion resistance"

Lol..kuch bhi!

25000 hours before overhaul

I think both were a slip of tongue.

that excuse behoves a politician, not a supposed defence beat journo

 

[Azaad]

25000 hours before overhaul

I think both were a slip of tongue.

 

[johnj]

www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/us-seals-key-jet-engine-deal-ahead-of-modi-s-visit-101687114785567.html

US seals key ‘jet engine deal’ ahead of Modi’s visit
By
, Washington:
Jun 19, 2023 05:16 AM IST
The US administration has completed the executive approvals for the manufacture of F414 jet engines in India.
Sealing a key deliverable during Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s state visit to Washington DC, the United States (US) administration has completed the executive approvals for the manufacture of F414 jet engines in India and begun the process of notifying the US Congress about the impending Memorandum of Understanding to be signed between General Electric (GE) and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), people familiar with discussions on the subject said.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi with US President Joe Biden in Oval Office, at White House in Washington,on September 24, 2021. (Reuters)
This is the first time that the US will share what it called a “crown jewel” in its defence capabilities with a non-ally; it is the first time that there will be coproduction of jet engines with a country with which Washington DC doesn’t have a treaty; it is also the first time that the US system is sharing a substantial share of sensitive jet engine technology with a provision for tech transfer ratio to increase.
“It is transformative. India will have access to the full engine. There are no black boxes here. The manufacturing in India is going to start with technology sharing of way over 50% which rises over the production cycle. There will be a flexible licensing agreement. India will have designs and sensitive technology. This is more tech transfer than the US has ever authorised. We are breaking through into new frontiers,” said a person aware of the discussions.
It is understood that commerce, state and defense departments have pushed through executive approvals, with regard to International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR); the administration is notifying the Senate and House armed services and foreign relations committees; and the process will take a few weeks to get to the full Congress. But given the strong bipartisan support India enjoys on the Hill, it is expected to move through smoothly.
In the meantime, during the PM’s visit, GE and HAL will sign an MoU on the manufacturing deal. The jet engines will power Tejas MK 2 fighter planes.
Explaining the significance of the decision, from the American perspective, Sameer Lalwani, a senior expert at the US Institute of Peace (USIP), said, “For the US, this is a significant move – a ‘costly signal’ as social scientists say – to share some highly sensitive technology, which it has never shared with a non-ally. Such transfers can be made possible, not simply with blueprints but from the transmission of tacit and organisational knowledge through a shared ecology of joint research, manufacturing, and supply chains.”
From the Indian perspective, Lalwani said, the deal offered access to better fighter jet engines than what China possessed – “with greater power and efficiency, longer service life, and less maintenance”. “It also offers India a coveted technology cooperation partnership and path to research, design, and produce its own cutting-edge aeroengines and upstream inputs.”
Given the deal’s political importance, Lalwani said, it can help catalyse a much broader defence technology and industrial partnership between the US and India, “ranging from basic science to lab research and development to codevelopment and commercialisation of new capabilities for advanced domains”.
In a recent report arguing for the deal, Heritage Foundation’s John Venable and Jeff Smith noted, “The deal would bolster India’s capacity to field indigenously produced fighters with some of the most powerful and reliable engines in the class, saving decades of research and development costs.” They added that the F414 engine technology transfer will also expand on the “already growing interoperability between US and Indian military systems”.
Under the initiative on critical and emerging technologies (ICET), unveiled by national security advisers Ajit Doval and Jake Sullivan in January, the US acknowledged that it had received an application from GE to “to jointly produce jet engines that could power jet aircraft operated and produced indigenously by India”. During secretary of defense Lloyd Austin and NSA Sullivan’s visit to India this month, they discussed the subject in detail with their Indian counterparts. Those involved in the discussions said that ICET and the leadership of NSAs made a big difference, as did the focus on actual deliverables.

• ABOUT THE AUTHOR
  
  
  Prashant Jha is the Washington DC-based US correspondent of Hindustan Times. He is also the editor of HT Premium. Jha has earlier served as editor-views and national political editor/bureau chief of the paper. He is the author of How the BJP Wins: Inside India's Greatest Election Machine and Battles of the New Republic: A Contemporary History of Nepal.

Conclusion, Chinese engine technology is superior to Russians and India need decades of research to develop 4h gen TF engine
In that case what is the possibility of importing 6th gen engine from US ??? for AMCA

 

[johnj]

Indian govt should twist arms of airlines companies, after all we have given 1000 planes order.

To start a trade war ??
Private companies consider going to court inisted of paying extra billions to aircraft maker

 

[abingdonboy]

First confirmation in a long long time that France is helping India with Kaveri to make it more powerful. Joy!

www.newindianexpress.com/nation/2023/jun/19/jet-engine-deal-with-us-to-boost-indias-airpower-2586462.html

Jet engine deal with US to boost India’s airpower
The much-talked-about General Electric F414 fighter aircraft engines could majorly add to India’s airpower and take forward indigenous fighter aircraft programmes.
Published: 19th June 2023 09:35 AM | Last Updated: 19th June 2023 09:35 AM A+A A-

Image used for representative purposes only. (Photo | Express)
Express News Service
NEW DELHI: The much-talked-about General Electric F414 fighter aircraft engines could majorly add to India’s airpower and take forward indigenous fighter aircraft programmes. Sources say there is a high possibility that, in addition to the other defence-related deals, an agreement on manufacturing GE F414 will also be made. The deal is likely to be announced during Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s state visit to the US, which will eventually lead to the transfer of technology.
In a sign of affirmation of the deal, added the sources, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has already been earmarked to partner with General Electric for the manufacture of the F414. The HAL is the nodal aviation manufacturing organisation having the experience and the necessary infrastructure.
Calling it an important deal in waiting, Ravi Gupta, former DRDO scientist, said the deal can add to the punch which needs a lot of focus. “To date the US has not given such high-end technology to anyone. Let’s wait and watch,” Gupta said. “To make the deal a success it should be binding on the US that it would not pull out of it in between and the transfer of technology should be in totality.”
India has lacked in engine-related technology and with time, it will be sought even more as the Air Force is already down to around 30 combat Squadrons as against a sanctioned strength of 42. While the GE-F414 engines are to be fitted in the Light Combat Aircraft Mk2, the work on twin-engine deck-based fighters is also proceeding.
The first batch of the 40 LCA Tejas inducted in 2016 is fitted with a GE F404 engine bought from General Electric. “India has no dearth of talent and potential but lacks in funds and resources. Our Work on the Kaveri engine programme would have succeeded,” says Gupta.
“Even today we don’t have a test-bedding engine facility in India and to test the thrust produced by the Kaveri prototypes, they were sent to Russia,” he said. Much is going on in terms of adding thrust to the Kaveri engine in France.
It was in December 2021 that Defence Minister Rajnath talked about an agreement between France and India for the indigenous manufacturing of an engine in collaboration with an Indian company under a strategic partnership.
Engine manufacturing involves complex metallurgy and is acknowledged as the weakest link in India’s ‘Make in India’ drive. India’s Kaveri engine programme has been frequently hitting roadblocks.
The Defence Minister had said it was due to national security concerns that India wanted indigenous production.
“India can’t be dependent on foreign technologies, especially after the kind of security challenges we have faced. I need not mention what kind of challenges India has faced,” said Rajnath. Stressing self-reliance, he said, “We have conveyed to friendly countries that keeping India’s national security challenges in mind, we want to manufacture defence products, weapons and ammunition in India.”
HAL to partner with General Electric
In a sign of affirmation of the deal, HAL has already been earmarked to partner with General Electric for the manufacture of the F414. The HAL is the nodal aviation manufacturing organisation having the experience and the necessary infrastructure. India has lacked engine-related technology. The IAF is already down to around 30 combat Squadrons as against a sanctioned strength of 42

Lack of engine test beds and the fact that ADA have to send air intake designs to France to have them validate shows there’s no seriousness to make india self reliant

this 414 deal is just a hyped up offset deal, no IP is shared and no knowledge will be imparted

the fact that GoI wants to talk this up and ignore the elephant in the room (110-125KN JV engine for AMCA) says it all, the latter will cost serious $$$ and require actual long term investments in local capacity. Getting pretty sick of this GoI spinning any small thing as a major ‘india first’ win, they haven’t even been able to attract local manufacturing of narrow body airliners despite 1000s of them to be inducted into Indian airlines in the next 15 years. That would create real capacity and ecosystems in india

all whilst LUH, IMRH, AMCA, TEDBF are begging for financial commitments and firm orders

 

[johnj]

Lack of engine test beds and the fact that ADA have to send air intake designs to France to have them validate shows there’s no seriousness to make india self reliant

this 414 deal is just a hyped up offset deal, no IP is shared and no knowledge will be imparted

the fact that GoI wants to talk this up and ignore the elephant in the room (110-125KN JV engine for AMCA) says it all, the latter will cost serious $$$ and require actual long term investments in local capacity. Getting pretty sick of this GoI spinning any small thing as a major ‘india first’ win, they haven’t even been able to attract local manufacturing of narrow body airliners despite 1000s of them to be inducted into Indian airlines in the next 15 years. That would create real capacity and ecosystems in india

all whilst LUH, IMRH, AMCA, TEDBF are begging for financial commitments and firm orders

You are comparing two different deals
This f414 deal is a modification of old 2009 deal, where GE provide tot to HAL, but in the current modified deal, GE also provide tech to GTRE, and one of the best deal concluded in past 1.5 decade[2 maybe]
110-125kn deal is bigger than this deal, and cost in excess of 5billion $ for R&D alone, at least a gen ahead of f414.
Current gov also cleared and signed deal to buy c295 from TATA - its help to create a small ecosystem for RTA
For AMCA next gen engine GE can offer a modified F414 or new ACE

 

[abingdonboy]

You are comparing two different deals
This f414 deal is a modification of old 2009 deal, where GE provide tot to HAL, but in the current modified deal, GE also provide tech to GTRE, and one of the best deal concluded in past 1.5 decade[2 maybe]
110-125kn deal is bigger than this deal, and cost in excess of 5billion $ for R&D alone, at least a gen ahead of f414.
Current gov also cleared and signed deal to buy c295 from TATA - its help to create a small ecosystem for RTA
For AMCA next gen engine GE can offer a modified F414 or new ACE

I’m not conflating or comparing

the 414 is a standard local assembly+offset deal. Remember how Safran was meant to turn around Kaveri as part of the Rafale offset package and promised within a few years it would be flying on LCA test beds? That’s as credible as the ‘ToT’ GE (a far more regulated company from the US) will offer GRTE

As I said- GoI would rather create fake PR on a decades old deal that had to happen anyway (LCA MK.2, TEDBF and AMCA MK.1 all need 414s) than do the hard work of investing in the AMCA MK.2 engine

 

[johnj]

I’m not conflating or comparing

the 414 is a standard local assembly+offset deal. Remember how Safran was meant to turn around Kaveri as part of the Rafale offset package and promised within a few years it would be flying on LCA test beds? That’s as credible as the ‘ToT’ GE (a far more regulated company from the US) will offer GRTE

As I said- GoI would rather create fake PR on a decades old deal that had to happen anyway (LCA MK.2, TEDBF and AMCA MK.1 all need 414s) than do the hard work of investing in the AMCA MK.2 engine

There is no offset in this deal, I don't think USN interested in HAL manufactured Engine or parts
It is a zero offset deal.
AMCA engine development is stuck, due to uncertainty over cost, tech, IPR, generation of tech etc
This deal is important for LCA mk2, without this deal, either buy mk1 + mig35 or mk1 + mk1 + rafale and PR is important to Biden than Modi, also GRTE is a part of current deal.

 

[spacemarine2023]

There is no offset in this deal, I don't think USN interested in HAL manufactured Engine or parts
It is a zero offset deal.
AMCA engine development is stuck, due to uncertainty over cost, tech, IPR, generation of tech etc
This deal is important for LCA mk2, without this deal, either buy mk1 + mig35 or mk1 + mk1 + rafale and PR is important to Biden than Modi, also GRTE is a part of current deal.

No other engine deal is in pipeline… GE414 will be put in AMCA MK1 … this deal is good we are getting full CNC machinery set up with maintenance support the plan is to increase the part sourcing in longer run.

 

[abingdonboy]

There is no offset in this deal, I don't think USN interested in HAL manufactured Engine or parts
It is a zero offset deal.
AMCA engine development is stuck, due to uncertainty over cost, tech, IPR, generation of tech etc
This deal is important for LCA mk2, without this deal, either buy mk1 + mig35 or mk1 + mk1 + rafale and PR is important to Biden than Modi, also GRTE is a part of current deal.

Offsets or not is mere semantics

local assembly plus some token tech for GRTE is the epitome of offsets and how they’ve been exercised every time (aka meaningless long term)

414 is ancient tech this deal offers as much for Indian industry as the AL31 did being assembled in india, any talk about ToT is pure marketing BS that both sides have an interest to pretend is transformational

MRO of the engines locally is a plus but that’s about it

as I say this doesn’t help the Indian self reliance goal 1 bit nor will it contribute to AMCA MK.2’s success (which GoI seems to have given up on entirely)

 

[abingdonboy]

No other engine deal is in pipeline… GE414 will be put in AMCA MK1 … this deal is good we are getting full CNC machinery set up with maintenance support the plan is to increase the part sourcing in longer run.

Big nothing burger

 

[jai jaganath]

No other engine deal is in pipeline… GE414 will be put in AMCA MK1 … this deal is good we are getting full CNC machinery set up with maintenance support the plan is to increase the part sourcing in longer run.

Nah basics 2 engine deals need to be pulled odd
1)ge-414 for lca mk2, amca, tedbf maybe HLFT-42
2)110kn engine for amca mk2 thus having ipr and development tech with us
First one seems to be on line this trip 2nd one is the problem and I personally think will never materialize and we can discuss that latter

 

[johnj]

Offsets or not is mere semantics

local assembly plus some token tech for GRTE is the epitome of offsets and how they’ve been exercised every time (aka meaningless long term)

414 is ancient tech this deal offers as much for Indian industry as the AL31 did being assembled in india, any talk about ToT is pure marketing BS that both sides have an interest to pretend is transformational

MRO of the engines locally is a plus but that’s about it

as I say this doesn’t help the Indian self reliance goal 1 bit nor will it contribute to AMCA MK.2’s success (which GoI seems to have given up on entirely)

Offset means, buying Indian made stuff or spending part of total deal money into India,
Rest - better to wait and watch
MRO - GE&HAL established MRO for f404
Self reliance - totally agree

 

[Tshering22]

Funds are main blocker, to perfect a superalloy requires numerous iterations, time, money and govt backing

The shoestring budget does not help. The Indian government has always had a disdain for investing in defence and pouring money into projects that would yield multi-generational technological and economic benefits, all for short-term populist crap.

I remember the interview with the LCA project director ages ago, who was lamenting the lack of interest by successive governments to be willing to fund anything indigenous at one stage. Tejas was a miracle that came into being.

 

[spacemarine2023]

The shoestring budget does not help. The Indian government has always had a disdain for investing in defence and pouring money into projects that would yield multi-generational technological and economic benefits, all for short-term populist crap.

I remember the interview with the LCA project director ages ago, who was lamenting the lack of interest by successive governments to be willing to fund anything indigenous at one stage. Tejas was a miracle that came into being.

There is lack of will to seriously invest in TurboFan tech. the main issue is its a strategic project requires couple of decades minimum to yield results.
Jet engines has so many offshoots but the duration scars Democratic govt.
Either it should be private venture or autocratic leadership like China

 

[Azaad]

25000 hours before overhaul



that excuse behoves a politician, not a supposed defence beat journo

Instead of that you guys ought to have focused on the interview between Vishnu Som & the ex HAL chief & commented on it especially in the light of S. Jha declaring that even with the available ToT we'd be able to mfg the TF on our own if needed without any assistance , probably within less than a decade of commencement of mfg at a plant here .

There's more information in those 5 odd min than in all the articles emanating in the press ever since news broke on the US consenting to jointly mfg the F-414 disussing & analysing the contours of the GE ToT deal . All you need to do is connect the dots .

 

[silverghost]

Now that this deal is almost done, can we make a fighter jet that flies instead of us drooling over pictures drawn by Kuntal Biswas?