ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[patriots]

Actually there are tender s for mk2
Though most of the tenders are for mk1a
Mk2 is there
But if govt is putting the clause of f414 tot
It's good .
As we know America is not a reliable partner.
We have around 300+ jets planned with f414
100+ mk2
50+ tedbf
100+ amca mk1
So it will be our foolness , not having the tot

 

[Vamsi]

Actually there are tender s for mk2
Though most of the tenders are for mk1a
Mk2 is there
But if govt is putting the clause of f414 tot
It's good .
As we know America is not a reliable partner.
We have around 300+ jets planned with f414
100+ mk2
50+ tedbf
100+ amca mk1
So it will be our foolness , not having the tot

even under ToT we will be still dependent on Americans for hot section if not the entire engine , so ToT is no different from direct purchase, this ToT is just screwdrivergiri

 

[patriots]

even under ToT we will be still dependent on Americans for hot section if not the entire engine , so ToT is no different from direct purchase, this ToT is just screwdrivergiri

We will know ,once comes in public

 

[Vamsi]

We will know ,once comes in public

there's nothing to know here, americans will never give you their crown jewel

 

[singhboy98]

You are joking I'm sure .. Has so much time passed that you have forgotten Saint Anthony ?

Well I am and I am not. That's why I wrote "not a lot". Sure, the BJP is better than the Congress in most MoD aspects but only just. NOTHING it has done has the bearings of the massive, once in a blue-moon mandate, which it has reviewed for the last 2 terms. That being said, if you want to benchmark NDA's MoD performance to absolute gutter level UPA Anthony types, sure, be my guest.

 

[MonaLazy]

But if govt is putting the clause of f414 tot
It's good .
As we know America is not a reliable partner.
We have around 300+ jets planned with f414
100+ mk2
50+ tedbf
100+ amca mk1
So it will be our foolness , not having the tot

This is the crux of the whole issue nicely summarised. Rather than berating GoI or ADA let's appreciate them for working full time to secure our interests which is the job they are paid to do.

This is just political grandstanding of who throws in the towel first. The govt that can hold out longer will be the winner in the end.

NDA and UPA are totally incomparable. Had it been UPA we would be paying big bucks for hyper expensive screw drivers. That this government can look anybody and I mean anybody in the eye without compromising core interests is something to be applauded.

If the US agrees that's a healthy outcome. If not we have to start on Plan B, C, D.. now now now. Start talking to owners of M88 and eurojet like yesterday with the same stubborn condition of 100% manufacturing know how. Not wait on Americans who are at the moment just wasting our time. The carrot for them is '00s of billions of engine manufacturing dollars, the stick is missing. All we can do is dangle the same carrot before Safran and EJ gmbh hoping someone will show some urgency.

For those that will say M-88 not powerful enough- it is better to carry a 10% lesser payload and have flying platforms rather than nothing at all and having to buy Rafale/F-35.

 

[abingdonboy]

This is the crux of the whole issue nicely summarised. Rather than berating GoI or ADA let's appreciate them for working full time to secure our interests which is the job they are paid to do.

This is just political grandstanding of who throws in the towel first. The govt that can hold out longer will be the winner in the end.

NDA and UPA are totally incomparable. Had it been UPA we would be paying big bucks for hyper expensive screw drivers. That this government can look anybody and I mean anybody in the eye without compromising core interests is something to be applauded.

If the US agrees that's a healthy outcome. If not we have to start on Plan B, C, D.. now now now. Start talking to owners of M88 and eurojet like yesterday with the same stubborn condition of 100% manufacturing know how. Not wait on Americans who are at the moment just wasting our time. The carrot for them is '00s of billions of engine manufacturing dollars, the stick is missing. All we can do is dangle the same carrot before Safran and EJ gmbh hoping someone will show some urgency.

Who will blink first? The US doesn’t even offer ToT to its closest partners and the GoI is demanding it for itself and that too over amongst the most sensitive tech any country will ever posses (engines)

I can’t believe this even needs to be said

gambling the entire LCA MK.2/AMCA/TEDBF/etc on the US capitulating to Indian demands (India can barely get the us to even bend on most things and vice versa) is only going to lead to one outcome

this is a win win for the US, india drops this clause and they get an assured order for 100s of engines over decades (MK.2, AMCA, TEDBF etc), india sticks to its position and thereby kills its own aerospace industry and the US swoops in (F21, F15EX, F18, F35 etc etc )

I cannot think of a more blatant act of sabotage than this nonsense, to spin this as the GoI protecting Indian interests is too egregious to even fathom.

 

[abingdonboy]

Again, let's see what the latest alphabet soup strategic razzmatazz has to offer. Let's wait for any F414 IP related announcements for India within the next 30 days. If US doesn't clear it, Modi won't sign the deal during his visit and we'll know things have truly gone south.

Imagine believing this, 30 days? Come back in 30 years and these guys won’t have budged one inch. NO ONE parts with engine IP, not even the Russians/Soviets in the peak bhai-bhai era parted with such tech. The entire AL-31 is made from Russian raw materials and IP to this day in india

 

[abingdonboy]

People of this forum really need to calm their nerves down and think with an open mind rather than getting swayed away with someone else's opinions written in article.

First of all, Janes is the same news portal that made tall claims like Indian Army purchasing 5 regiments of QRSAM and Indian Navy procuring IAI LORA, both of which were proven to be untrue.

Secondly, the article states that Janes has learnt this through its anonymous sources, who these sources are is anyone's guess.
Majority of the articles published by quoting random, anonymous sources have been debunked as false, hit-jobs or a combination of both.

Thirdly, ADA had selected the GE F414 to power the Tejas Mk2 back in 2010 and a deal with GE was signed sometime back in 2013, as per an article by Ajai Shukla, deliveries of the initial lot of 16 GE F414 began in September 2015.

First Tejas Mark II engine to arrive in September

www.ajaishukla.com

GE F414 Engines Selected to Power India Light Combat Aircraft Program | GE News

GE F414 Engines Selected to Power India Light Combat Aircraft Program

www.ge.com

Unless these engines are planned to be used for making scrambled eggs, they will definitely find their way into the Tejas Mk2 prototypes which are being built as we speak.

Fourthly, tenders are being released left, right and center by various DRDO labs and HAL working on the Tejas Mk2 program.
If as per Janes, the funding is on-hold, then DRDO and HAL must be doing this for free or through their internal funds, isn't it?

The serial production of Tejas Mk2 is a good 4-5 years away, and with 16 engines already delivered, that is ample time for both the US and Indian Govts to get on a common ground and resolve any discrepancies regarding ToT of the GE F-414 engine so that the next lot of engines can be ordered.

The Indian Govt does take some stupid decisions, but even they know that the US does not share engine technology or know-how to its closest allies, and India is not the kind of American ally which countries like UK, Japan, South Korea, etc. are.
There is a reason as to why American fighter jets have been purchased by the Indian Govt for the IAF, even if they are better than the competing fighter jets.

So, to conclude, lets just wait for PM Modi visit to the US which will throw light and hopefully clear the issue, if it even exists in the first place.

You people are conflating things.

no one ever said a limited number of F414 weren’t delivered for the early prototypes, that’s not the point.

the GoI has linked (according to this report and now S.Jha) funding of the MK.2 to the USG granting TOT for the 414 (unfreakingbelivable)

until now ADA and HAL were using internal funds and budget left over from the MK.1’s FSED allocation (again confirmed by S.Jha) for MK.2 work but to get to the next stages they were requesting full financial support from the GoI for years, this was granted in late 2022 but with this clause as such the actual disbursement of funds has basically evaporated

so how exactly is the MK.2 meant to progress with no money? Why has ADA/HAL started to leak that timelines are being rolled back dramatically ever since CCS sanction?

a handful of 414 engines might be in their possession but they are effectively being starved of any funding, death by other means as usual

 

[abingdonboy]

We hv enough time to sign a deal.
With 16 engines as you said it's enough to build and certify a prototype and come to a deal but news like this clause gives a huge leverage to GE and murica that's what is astonishing.
5 years are more than enough to come to a deal.
Also if the news are to be trusted and funds are not cleared till now then previous statement that HAL is using mk1A fund to work on Mk2 is true which brings us to our main culprits the babus and the govt.
How do we expect Turkish levels of development or something on similar levels when babus are sitting and not allowing/allowing meagre funds to flow to HAL/DRDO/ADA.
And then people cry how DRDO bad ADA/HAL bad and private companies do better.

The engine deal is immaterial- yes there’s plenty of time for that to be agreed

but the clause that has been reported whereby ADA is being starved of funds until that deal is greenlit by Washington is the issue

linking a domestic project’s funding to a decision in a foreign capital for long term engine supply (and ToT) is beyond reason, without a justifiable explanation it is nothing short of outright sabotage

 

[MonaLazy]

gambling the entire LCA MK.2/AMCA/TEDBF/etc on the US capitulating to Indian demands

You think we will go for F-21/15/35 if US doesn't deliver the goods on the engine front?? Not even in your dreams!

Americans have forever been out of IAF fighter inventory and if they don't capitulate then it is assured they are not getting in for the next 100 years.

As for India I think we are very comfortable. If they don't give us the ToT we are no worse off than we are today. But there is tremendous upside if they do. This is America's market to lose and the odds favour us.

The only fine tuning in this strategy should be to talk to other engine majors and not make it US exclusive to put more pressure on Murica and also soft land if the US goes cuckoo. We have to generate multiple options.

Imagine believing this, 30 days? Come back in 30 years and these guys won’t have budged one inch. NO ONE parts with engine IP, not even the Russians/Soviets in the peak bhai-bhai era parted with such tech. The entire AL-31 is made from Russian raw materials and IP to this day in india

They have come a long way from winding down the jet engine jwg. The newer iCET is there for a reason. How we dealt with Russia in the past has no bearing here. Different era, different actors.

 

[abingdonboy]

I still believe that its a joke, that clause doesn't make sense. Wasnt the talk was like 'how linking the engine development to lca was a bad idea", so they pushed the similar clause again wth! This must be the joke of the century.

When plausible explanations cannot be found the outcome can be attributed as the motive

This is all by design

it was never about Kaveri or IP but screwing over these projects. The exact same game is being played with AMCA (MK.2), knowing full well no country in the world will ever part with IP for their engine tech, this is exactly what the cabal is demanding in order to progress domestic projects.

 

[NutCracker]

You think we will go for F-21/15/35 if US doesn't deliver the goods on the engine front?? Not even in your dreams!

exactly, the very reason all this hullabaloo happening is because govt seems to have trust issues with US and if its true why would we even think to go and buy their front line fighters.

 

[abingdonboy]

You think we will go for F-21/15/35 if US doesn't deliver the goods on the engine front?? Not even in your dreams!

Americans have forever been out of IAF fighter inventory and if they don't capitulate then it is assured they are not getting in for the next 100 years.

As for India I think we are very comfortable. If they don't give us the ToT we are no worse off than we are today. But there is tremendous upside if they do. This is America's market to lose and the odds favour us.

The only fine tuning in this strategy should be to talk to other engine majors and not make it US exclusive to put more pressure on Murica and also soft land if the US goes cuckoo. We have to generate multiple options.

You have to be joking, very comfortable for India?

India is 100% reliant on the US capitulating and it has been ever since that genius decision to use the 404 and not the EJ for the MK.1, looking backwards it seems this was the real masterstroke by the lobby to bake in a fundamental weakness into the entire Indian aerospace industry ready to be exploited at the time of their choosing.

if the US doesn’t give ToT then LCA MK.2 doesn’t get funded, this is the absurdity of the whole freaking clause.

Looking beyond that that will effectively kill off the LCA MK.2, AMCA and TEDBF overnight or at the very least delay all by >5 years as redesigns have to occur AFTER the lengthy process to find a new engine occurs, in reality this will be at least a decade delay and will spawn yet another generation of non-optimised fighters (this continues to be aissue with the MK.1/1A)

 

[MonaLazy]

it was never about Kaveri or IP but screwing over these projects.

Should this forum apply for a change of domain to meltdownforumofindia.com?? Please do not spread despondency sourced from your own bias and world view. There is literally nothing else backing your delusional claims right now.

You think ADA and GoI have built castles in air for the last 40 or so years?? With what gumption are you claiming GoI will sabotage its own prestige projects to literally land an egg on its face? Do you realise how twisted you sound?

India is 100% reliant on the US capitulating

Not at all. More options can be generated. I have pointed them out but you don't want to see them, just indulge in RR.. smh

 

[SavageKing456]

Let's be honest here
Tejas mk2 is not going anywhere,it's going to stay so is amca
Rest is just speculations
The prototype is under assembling and will probably be sent to France for testing then rollout after then the engine will be watched

 

[abingdonboy]

Actually there are tender s for mk2
Though most of the tenders are for mk1a
Mk2 is there
But if govt is putting the clause of f414 tot
It's good .
As we know America is not a reliable partner.
We have around 300+ jets planned with f414
100+ mk2
50+ tedbf
100+ amca mk1
So it will be our foolness , not having the tot

All of a sudden it’s a master stoke by GoI and ToT for US engines is on the table

you guys are actually delusional

I’m still waiting for DTTI to deliver even ONE meaningful product for india. By now they were meant to have delivered multiple ISR platforms as per of the CABS project

 

[abingdonboy]

Should this forum apply for a change of domain to meltdownforumofindia.com?? Please do not spread despondency sourced from your own bias and world view. There is literally nothing else backing your delusional claims right now.

You think ADA and GoI have built castles in air for the last 40 or so years?? With what gumption are you claiming GoI will sabotage its own prestige projects to literally land an egg on its face? Do you realise how twisted you sound?

My entire perspective is built on what evidence is now emerging. I had been bullish on Indian aerospace after MK1A was ordered but it’s clear certain entities have struck back and not gone down without a fight.

based on 2 credible accounts now it’s reasonable to accept that MK.2 will not be funded unless the US concedes to Indian demands for ToT for the 414, not only is this simply never happening but best case scenario it starves the Mk.2 of funding whilst these (futile negotiations) are on

you need to adjust your position accordingly not based on what you hope to happen but what is happening.

Multiple previous reports of MK.2 deadlines already slipping and it all makes sense

 

[singhboy98]

Anyone who does not believe that the Mk-2 project (thus the AMCA by extension) is not under existential threat is living in a la-la land. Anyone who knows how the powers of corridors in Delhi work will know that the steps to smother the Mk-2 project have started. The Military bureaucracy (includes uniforms & babus) has decided that the AMCA will NOT happen. Hence, unless our Raksha Mantri really teaches a mean and a vindictive lesson to the traitors, this project is not happening. Think again, the Mk-2 is not the intended target, the AMCA is. The Mk-2 is what you call "collateral damage".

P.S: Its funny how one's entire perspective can change in a matter of months. If someone would have told me in February 2023 that the Mk-2 program will meet the HF-24 fate, I would have laughed him/her out of the room. How things change🥲

 

[MonaLazy]

My entire perspective is built on what evidence is now emerging.

Well then wait for the full picture to emerge. Dont form half baked opinions based on only recent news.

If these projects are wrapping up Dr Deodhare will let us know. Since he is quiet, we should shut up too.

P.S: Its funny how one's entire perspective can change in a matter of months. If someone would have told me in February 2023 that the Mk-2 program will meet the HF-24 fate, I would have laughed him/her out of the room. How things change🥲

I am saving this one and looking forward to how this post and opinion ages over the next few months. My gut feel is you will undergo a transformative change of perspective yet again. & for the better this time.