ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

Okabe Rintarou

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vishnugupt

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Honestly I have never imagined ADA will give such tight deadline.

For MWF things are moving in very mysterious way.

Either ADA is so confident that they have refined aerodynamics at the level where they will not see any upcoming refinement.

Or ADA has changed developmental approach for MWF upside down. Something they are going to use every LSP for MWF system testing.

Or may be MWF is flying somewhere and we don't know (Unlikely) but if ADA managed to achieve IOC by 2026 then it will remove my all doubts about AMCA timelines. It will also put them in league of world best agencies.
 

MonaLazy

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Honestly I have never imagined ADA will give such tight deadline.

For MWF things are moving in very mysterious way.

It will also put them in league of world best agencies.
It's a tight self imposed deadline and they have already missed the first milestone - roll out by August 2022. I wouldn't be so confident. US prototyped it's NGAD in the virtual world and flew a physical copy all in a year's time- that is world class. With Mk2 there's no new subsystems, nothing experimental & yet there is silence on the project from ADA. Even AMCA which is much further away gets more press.
 

vishnugupt

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It's a tight self imposed deadline and they have already missed the first milestone - roll out by August 2022. I wouldn't be so confident. US prototyped it's NGAD in the virtual world and flew a physical copy all in a year's time- that is world class. With Mk2 there's no new subsystems, nothing experimental & yet there is silence on the project from ADA. Even AMCA which is much further away gets more press.
Politely, I will say No to your argument.

Giving a deadline to finish a project is important part of commitment. You can't randomly say ok! we will do it by tomorrow because other stakeholders/GoI then shall ask "explain us how"

There is monitoring of project where ADA have to report on monthly basis or may be weekly.

Such decisions you can't take your own. There might be the delay of few months or more due to situation like Covid19
 

flanker99

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Politely, I will say No to your argument.

Giving a deadline to finish a project is important part of commitment. You can't randomly say ok! we will do it by tomorrow because other stakeholders/GoI then shall ask "explain us how"

There is monitoring of project where ADA have to report on monthly basis or may be weekly.

Such decisions you can't take your own. There might be the delay of few months or more due to situation like Covid19
Im pretty sure there will be delays despite having lot of proven subsystems testing the a/c will take more than 2-3 years production between 28-30 is more likely
 

singhboy98

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Don't get your hopes up guys. If PM Modi is not re-elected in 2024, the Mk-2 is going to be inhibited by the import lobby and you can forget about the AMCA. The import lobby is down but is waiting for that one last chance to strike back. They will use throw their whole weight behind the BIF parties in 2024.
 

MonaLazy

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Giving a deadline to finish a project is important part of commitment.

There might be the delay of few months or more due to situation like Covid19
I'm sorry but I don't feel quite as charitable. Let's agree to disagree for now, but let me explain why.


1663557052634.png




The Mk 2’s preliminary design studies were finished in 2014 and were in the detailed design phase in 2015. The redesigned fighter was first displayed at the Aero India air show in 2019. It was a 17.5-tonne-class fighter with close-coupled canards and an integrated IRST system. The Metal-cutting for the Tejas Mark 2 started in February 2021. The first prototype was supposed to “roll out” in August 2022

Money was no problem. Metal cutting of frozen design started in February '21 and i remember a video of Dr Deodhare saying there are no unknowns in Mk2 and also Dr Madhusudana Rao confidently announcing the roll out date of August '22 to AKM. Both those commitments are from June 2021 ie AFTER the brouhaha from covid had substantially abated. & even in the year before that Dr Deodhare says only flight testing was affected due to covid but CFD analysis and design actually picked up speed. Do remember these figures are not faceless defence enthusiasts- but well known professionals from a premier defence lab of this country. When they make a commitment they know all there is to know and plan adequate buffer.

These are the facts. I'll form opinion based only on this- & still believe this delay is totally unacceptable. They have had the money for it for 13 years now and must have been working on it for much longer than that. This is 2022 when the US & China are producing 5th generation fighters like pancakes and here we are struggling to finish a 4th generation Mk2 after having spent 40 years on learning via Mk1.



 
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MonaLazy

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www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/lca-mk-2-set-to-have-heavier-payload-capacity-better-range-101663525099790.html

LCA Mk-2 set to have heavier payload capacity, better range
Published on Sep 18, 2022 11:48 PM IST
The Cabinet Committee on Security, headed by Prime Minister Narendra Modi, had on August 31 cleared the much-awaited project for the development of LCA Mk-2 that is expected to form an important element of future air combat.

1663579374079.png


The light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas currently in Indian Air Force service. (IAF photos)
By
, New Delhi
The light combat aircraft (LCA) Mk-2, the most advanced warplane set to be built in India, will come with enhanced survivability, better situational awareness for pilots, high payload capacity, improved range, network centric capabilities, integrated avionics, and an ability to quickly switch from one role to another, officials familiar with the matter said on Sunday.
The Cabinet Committee on Security, headed by Prime Minister Narendra Modi, had on August 31 cleared the much-awaited project for the development of LCA Mk-2 that is expected to form an important element of future air combat.
The new aircraft, being developed at a cost of around ₹10,000 crore, will have a payload capacity of 6.5 tonne and be able to carry a mix of weapons, including beyond visual range air-to-air missiles, air-to-ground missiles, heavy precision guided weapons and conventional bombs, said one of the officials, asking not to be named.
The 17.5-tonne fighter, to be powered by the higher thrust GE F414-INS6 engine (earlier LCA variants use the F404), will have a maximum speed of 1.8 Mach and service ceiling of 50,000 feet.
The other upgrades on the LCA Mk-2 include a superior radar, enhanced fuel capacity, unified electronic warfare suite, indigenous flight control actuators, improved digital flight control computer and better cockpit displays, said a second official familiar with the project.
The new fighter jet will cater to the future requirements for the Indian Air Force (IAF), which has already inducted several of the 40 earlier variants of LCA and ordered 83 improved Mk-1A variants. The Mk-2 fighter will be the most advanced variant of the LCA designed and developed indigenously by the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA)
The first flight of the LCA Mk-2 fighter could take place in two years, setting the stage for its production and subsequent operational availability by 2028-29 to replace the Mirage 2000s and Jaguars.
The LCA Mk-2 will be a further development of the Mk-1A fighter. Last year, the defence ministry awarded a ₹48,000 crore contract to Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) for 83 LCA Mk-1A jets for IAF. The first Mk-1A aircraft is expected to be delivered to the air force by March 2024, with the rest slated to join its combat fleet by 2029.
“IAF is grappling with a shortage of fighter squadrons, and LCA Mk-2 will play a key role in plugging capability gaps. At the same time, it is important to ensure that production rate of LCA Mk-1A is ramped up,” Air Marshal Anil Chopra (retd), director general, Centre of Air Power Studies, said when CCS cleared the LCA Mk-2 project.
The aircraft will be equipped with advanced avionics with smart large area display, sleek head up display, infrared search and track capability to detect threats at long ranges, missile approach warning systems and countermeasure dispensing systems for self-protection, the officials said.
IAF could order more than 210 LCA Mk-2 fighters in the long term, as previously reported.
Of the 123 LCA variants already ordered, 20 each are in the initial operational clearance (IOC) and the more advanced final operational clearance (FOC) configurations. The remaining 83 LCA Mk-1A fighters will come with additional improvements over FOC aircraft.
The Mk-1A will come with digital radar warning receivers, external self-protection jammer pods, advanced beyond-visual-range missiles, and significantly improved maintainability.
LCA Mk-2 is expected to fill the gap between Mk-1A and the indigenous fifth-generation fighter programme - the advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA) – which is also being pursued. There is a possibility of equipping AMCA with directed energy weapons, superior anti-missile systems, and teaming it with unmanned systems.
The LCA Mk-2 project will provide a significant boost to the Aatmanirbhar Bharat (self-reliant India) campaign, one of the government’s foremost priorities, the officials said.
A new import ban imposed by the government on hundreds of military subsystems and components last month brought India’s quest for indigenisation into sharper focus, set goals for the local defence manufacturing industry, and turned the spotlight on the journey so far and the long road ahead for attaining meaningful self-reliance.
The main steps taken to inject momentum into the self-reliance drive include bringing out a series of positive indigenisation lists (six have been published so far to ban the import of major weapons, platforms, subsystems and components), creating a separate budget for buying locally made military hardware, and earmarking research and development budget for the private industry and start-ups.
 

MonaLazy

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Chinmoy

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Both of those canon kills were helicopters and during the end of the war in a barely contested airspace with non existing SAM.

And one of those two ,was done by slow af A10..

Imagine if canon was that useless back then how useless it will be now on a supersonic fighter jet.




The sole reason for the Existence of BVRAAM is that you can avoid head-on fight.

And since you've already provided accuracy stats of WVRAAM in 1991 , i don't see why it will go beyond that in 2022.

If you target is SLOW as helicopters then your WVRAAM won't miss , and if your target is a jet which can evade WVRAAM, then your canon is USELESS .

UNDERSTOOD ?
Ok.
So if we take the recent case of drone and balloon interception by Su-30, going by your logic, Tejas should perform a similar role with the Python?
Or once they get visual of the drone or balloon doing surveillance, they should report back to ground station to scramble any other jet with onboard cannon?

And for your last bold statement of, "if WVRAAM misses the target, the cannon is useless". I just want to ask you, what is the logic?
 

Chinmoy

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Development includes flight trials, IOC, FOC, LSP, etc as well.

2027 Tejas MK 2 is handed over to IAF. 2028 first squadron is commissioned into IAF just as first Jaguar / Mig 29 squadron gets number plated.
Induction of Mk2 would start from 2030 if everything goes well. Don't go by jingos of MSM or youtube. They have turned an estimate of 12 sqds of LCA to be 12 sqds of LCA Mk2.
 

vishnugupt

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If production starts in 2026- won't the first Mk2 roll out in +3 years (which is the norm) - ie by 2029?
This is the area where delay will be there. Either procedural or due to lack of orders. Hopefully GoI/MoD will work here proactively.

But don't forget ADA's job is development not induction. Once FOC given there job is done. If MWF got IOC in 2026 that means ADA has done its job.

One more thing. MWF development didn't started back in 2010 or 2014. Till 2016 Tejas existence itself in question. Initially MWF was just an engine upgrade but later ADA came to know that IAF will not accept it.
 

NutCracker

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Ok.
So if we take the recent case of drone and balloon interception by Su-30, going by your logic, Tejas should perform a similar role with the Python?
Or once they get visual of the drone or balloon doing surveillance, they should report back to ground station to scramble any other jet with onboard cannon?

And for your last bold statement of, "if WVRAAM misses the target, the cannon is useless". I just want to ask you, what is the logic?

NIETHER. SU30 nor Tejas should have be performing role to intercept puny drones.
Get anti-drone drones, signal jammers.

Even if they are made to perform such roles, then sukhoi/tejas should have dedicated inbuilt EW suite to cut off radio and GPS signal of drone. They should not "destroy" drones by using guns .
 

MonaLazy

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MWF development didn't started back in 2010 or 2014
At that point in time (2009-10) it was just an engine upgrade + .5m nose plug which was known as the Mk2- but at later IAF got deeply involved in the project (by spelling out the new weapons they wanted the aircraft to carry) to avoid historic fracas of Mk1 during it's FSED phase 2 where IAF swapped R-60 for R-73 & the heavier missile necessitated changes to wing and added years of delay. But despite everything ADA & IAF have been at it since 2009- that's how the design has iterated & evolved to the current close coupled delta canard.

1663590763070.png


We even have this engine MoU for GE's F414 from 2010!



If MWF got IOC in 2026 that means ADA has done its job.
There will be no IOC/FOC game with Mk2. The first prototype that rolls out later this year* will be production standard.

* T&C apply
 
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vishnugupt

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At that point in time (2009-10) it was just an engine upgrade + .5m nose plug which was known as the Mk2- but at later IAF got deeply involved in the project (by spelling out the new weapons they wanted the aircraft to carry) to avoid historic fracas of Mk1 during it's FSED phase 2 where IAF swapped R-60 for R-73 & the heavier missile necessitated changes to wing and added years of delay. But despite everything ADA & IAF have been at it since 2009- that's how the design has iterated & evolved to the current close coupled delta canard.

View attachment 172209

We even have this engine MoU for GE's F414 from 2010!





There will be no IOC/FOC game with Mk2. The first prototype that rolls out later this year will be production standard.
You mean to say ADA took 11 years just to conclude final configuration of MWF??

Let me explain you in another way...... The 4 models you see in picture actually are goal post of IAF which has been constantly on move till 2021.

In the end, IAF was forced to give realistic GSQR and go ahead to project. They had managed to pull MWF on the path of Arjun in design phage.

If ADA/HAL signed MoU for 414 back in 2008 then show me when IAF gave clearance for critical design review?? It was given in 2021. That means IAF took almost 10 years to give its final GSQRs.
 

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