ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[MonaLazy]

You mean to say ADA took 11 years just to conclude final configuration of MWF??

Yes & No. ADA+IAF have been at it from 2009 or before. Signing off on a configuration is obviously IAFs job. In those 13+ years those 3+ designs emerged. If you see LCA AF Mk 2 C from 2017 & LCA MK 2 PDR in 2014 there must have been a B (and many such in-between designs) that was iterated and discarded- but time & effort from both IAF & ADA nonetheless.

 

[johnj]

You mean to say ADA took 11 years just to conclude final configuration of MWF??

Let me explain you in another way...... The 4 models you see in picture actually are goal post of IAF which has been constantly on move till 2021.

In the end, IAF was forced to give realistic GSQR and go ahead to project. They had managed to pull MWF on the path of Arjun in design phage.

If ADA/HAL signed MoU for 414 back in 2008 then show me when IAF gave clearance for critical design review?? It was given in 2021. That means IAF took almost 10 years to give its final GSQRs.

Becz IAF don't have any clue about the capability of 4.5 gen jets, after rafale they knows. Till then ADA designed according to iaf lca mk1 shortcoming, from engine[initial]- range- payload- integrated ew- aerial refueling- irst - etc to sensor fusion.
Its ADA/HALs hard/smart work & nda support which saved the lca pgrm, from similar to arjun mbt fate.
Only thing IAF shouting for past 2 decade[still going on] is mmrca/mrfa ... euro...euro...

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

It should be 12 squadrons worth at least.

How? 31 per annum for four years and 16 in the fifth year. That is around 140 jets which at 20 jets per squadron is 7 squadrons worth.

If production starts in 2026- won't the first Mk2 roll out in +3 years (which is the norm) - ie by 2029?

It says production phase bearings are to be supplied in 2026. Not that production will start in 2026. Which indicates that the final assembly of around 31 jets will take place in 2026. The long lead activities will begin before 2026. Roll-out and first deliveries in 2027 sounds fine in that case.

Induction of Mk2 would start from 2030 if everything goes well. Don't go by jingos of MSM or youtube. They have turned an estimate of 12 sqds of LCA to be 12 sqds of LCA Mk2.

HAL is the one who came up with that production schedule. Not some jingo on SM.

 

[vishnugupt]

Yes & No. ADA+IAF have been at it from 2009 or before. Signing off on a configuration is obviously IAFs job. In those 13+ years those 3+ designs emerged. If you see LCA AF Mk 2 C from 2017 & LCA MK 2 PDR in 2014 there must have been a B (and many such in-between designs) that was iterated and discarded- but time & effort from both IAF & ADA nonetheless.

These are well known tactics of UN Generals how to put a project towards death. They don't give requirements at once instead they add one requirement every year.

Similar tactic were used by IA for Arjun where they read defence weekly magazine and add same the requirement for Arjun. This is not joke infact this is admitted by an Army officer who was working with Arjun program.

 

[MonaLazy]

It says production phase bearings are to be supplied in 2026. Not that production will start in 2026. Which indicates that the final assembly of around 31 jets will take place in 2026. The long lead activities will begin before 2026. Roll-out and first deliveries in 2027 sounds fine in that case.

still not lining up

2023 rollout (*) linked article says roll out in 2024 then delay this plan by one more year!
2024 FF
2027 tested & certified
2030 first serial produced Mk2 rolls out of factory

.. this is if there are no slip-ups, which is impossible.

DRDO targets 2027 to complete development and flight testing of LCA-Mk2

CCS sanctioned the development of LCA-Mk2 earlier this week at a total cost of ₹9,000 crore

www.thehindu.com

With the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) sanctioning the development of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA)-Mk2, a bigger and more capable fighter than the present one, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is setting a target of 2027 to complete the flight testing, according to Defence officials.

First deliveries by 2027 only possible if they start full-scale serial production from 2024 in parallel with flight testing! That sounds very hairy!

 

[vishnugupt]

Becz IAF don't have any clue about the capability of 4.5 gen jets, after rafale they knows. Till then ADA designed according to iaf lca mk1 shortcoming, from engine[initial]- range- payload- integrated ew- aerial refueling- irst - etc to sensor fusion.
Its ADA/HALs hard/smart work & nda support which saved the lca pgrm, from similar to arjun mbt fate.
Only thing IAF shouting for past 2 decade[still going on] is mmrca/mrfa ... euro...euro...

If you are saying it sarcastically then you are wrong. IAF really didn't know what they want? their GSQR used to prepare by lobbies.

IAF view on ADA :-

Look LCA first flight ceremony where ADA chief didn't offered a chair while Kotiyal sitting next to DM.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

still not lining up

2023 rollout (*) linked article says roll out in 2024 then delay this plan by one more year!
2024 FF
2027 testing & certifications
2030 first serial produced Mk2 rolls out of factory

.. this is if there are no slip-ups, which is impossible.

DRDO targets 2027 to complete development and flight testing of LCA-Mk2

CCS sanctioned the development of LCA-Mk2 earlier this week at a total cost of ₹9,000 crore

www.thehindu.com

HAL could be planning to keep the bearings in the inventory then, that is the only explanation. Although why would they? Especially with warranty running out in 24 months, they can't keep in inventory longer than 2 years. One possibility could be that HAL is doing this according to a best case scenario and the 2027 deadline for testing and certification is a worst case scenario told to press by ADA? So if the testing and certification slips into currently envisaged production schedule, then HAL is planning for a two year delay at worst? That does add up that if bearings bought in 2026 go into first production set of 31 jets in 2028 after the 2027 max slip of certification, it will be fine.
The one thing certain in that contract is that if HAL orders these bearings post-2030, then the bearing unit price would escalate. So it does seem like HAL is planning to get all bearings within 2030 and even if they are forced to keep them in inventory for two years, the production should still conclude by around 2032-33.

Forget it. I am tired of trying to make sense of this. Lets just see how this plays out IRL.......

 

[vishnugupt]

still not lining up

2023 rollout (*) linked article says roll out in 2024 then delay this plan by one more year!
2024 FF
2027 tested & certified
2030 first serial produced Mk2 rolls out of factory

.. this is if there are no slip-ups, which is impossible.

DRDO targets 2027 to complete development and flight testing of LCA-Mk2

CCS sanctioned the development of LCA-Mk2 earlier this week at a total cost of ₹9,000 crore

www.thehindu.com

First deliveries by 2027 only possible if they start full-scale serial production from 2024 in parallel with flight testing! That sounds very hairy!

You are actually comparing MWF development and production with Tejas mk1. Look Tejas had rough development time with lots of uncertainty and Low number of orders.

While MWF have no such problem. So compare it like how China managed to transit J20 into production from development without any time gap.

Don't forget, MWF is very very urgent national project.

 

[johnj]

If you are saying it sarcastically then you are wrong. IAF really didn't know what they want? their GSQR used to prepare by lobbies.

IAF view on ADA :- View attachment 172223

Look LCA first flight ceremony where ADA chief didn't offered a chair while Kotiyal sitting next to DM.

Not sarcastically, it the truth, simply look at IAF & IA RFIs and demands, its very hard to achieve or unavailable. If you consider AF, they want a jet with eft capability on a single engine light fighter, and want to develop a engine similar to ej200 in first place from scratch, also in mmrca, none of the jets meets iaf requirements, at the end, eft & rafale were chosen, & aesa equipped ones still under development. [still lca order stands 16+16+8 becz iaf living in a dream land with 180 plus rafale & euro weapons]
''GSQR used to prepare by lobbies'' - I also think so.

 

[MonaLazy]

You are actually comparing MWF development and production with Tejas mk1.

No, I'm just trying to make sense of how Mk2 enters IAF service by 2027- only possible with concurrent engineering where you start production along with flight testing. I think they did it for F-35 and it was an absolute disaster. Too many changes (feedback from flight testing) had to be ported back to half baked machines that had already rolled out of factory.

Otherwise, even the most optimistic schedule will see them don IAF roundels only by 2029-30.

 

[WarmongerLSK]

If you are saying it sarcastically then you are wrong. IAF really didn't know what they want? their GSQR used to prepare by lobbies.

IAF view on ADA :- View attachment 172223

Look LCA first flight ceremony where ADA chief didn't offered a chair while Kotiyal sitting next to DM.

Sauce for the pic?

 

[vishnugupt]

Sauce for the pic?

I think some autobiography.

 

[vishnugupt]

No, I'm just trying to make sense of how Mk2 enters IAF service by 2027- only possible with concurrent engineering where you start production along with flight testing. I think they did it for F-35 and it was an absolute disaster. Too many changes (feedback from flight testing) had to be ported back to half baked machines that had already rolled out of factory.

Otherwise, even the most optimistic schedule will see them don IAF roundels only by 2029-30.

Okay Bhai, let's wait and see what comes out. May be you are right.

 

[abingdonboy]

Honestly I have never imagined ADA will give such tight deadline.

For MWF things are moving in very mysterious way.

Either ADA is so confident that they have refined aerodynamics at the level where they will not see any upcoming refinement.

Or ADA has changed developmental approach for MWF upside down. Something they are going to use every LSP for MWF system testing.

Or may be MWF is flying somewhere and we don't know (Unlikely) but if ADA managed to achieve IOC by 2026 then it will remove my all doubts about AMCA timelines. It will also put them in league of world best agencies.

It seems inconceivable they’ll be able to validate the MK.2 within 2 years of the first flight and that too with 1 airframe? I think they are stretching it even at 5 years (their official timeline) but it’s more viable than this nonsense coming from defence blogs now.

I know they intend to skip the LSP step and go straight to SP but there’s far too many variables to be confident of such aggressive timelines right now. If they keep pushing the first flight back then it’s even less relevant

My biggest concern is the IAF won’t order the MK.2 before it achieves IOC/FOC around 2030(my estimate) then we’ll see the same babu/obstructing game they played with MK1A and stall contract signature for 2-3 years meaning the first SP airframes can only be delivered in ~2035. Look at the stupidity that has gone on a relatively proven platform (as far as common engine and gearbox to in-service equipment) like the LCH and even LUH, these services are in no rush to support local industry

 

[abingdonboy]

You are actually comparing MWF development and production with Tejas mk1. Look Tejas had rough development time with lots of uncertainty and Low number of orders.

While MWF have no such problem. So compare it like how China managed to transit J20 into production from development without any time gap.

Don't forget, MWF is very very urgent national project.

If MK.2 was a national project they wouldn’t have cut the number commitments in half since 2018 and wouldn’t be continuing with the farce that is MRFA.

MK.2 is the step child they haven’t been able to kill off…..yet.

these are the same geniuses that have allowed their backbone (SU-30MKI) to become obsolete just so they can justify the need for 100++ new imported 4.5+ gen jets.

+ if you think about it the IAF’s lack of willingness to commit ORCA shows how much they are obsessed with their import fetish. ORCA would be on par with Rafale with any differences being incredibly marginal and timelines even if stretched (they’d be better if IAF was onboard) would still overlap massively with the proposed timelines for MRFA induction yet IAF has never publicly even shown an interest in ORCA because that 100% kills their MRFA fantasy. Ask yourself why would they be so fixated on imports only?

 

[abingdonboy]

Alright, found the source, its this tender: https://hal-india.co.in/Tender_Details.aspx?Mkey=63&lKey=&Ckey=MzkxOTc=&Divkey=MTY=

Its in the file titled "PDF1308TB1.pdf" last page.

EDIT: Posting here for posterity. Courtesy Alpha Defence and @Vamsi :-

View attachment 172077


View attachment 172076

View attachment 172078

I’m getting SO sick of these blogs and Twitter accounts extrapolating a single data point and applying it in such a ret@rded way.

To use this and create the narrative that production commences in 2026 is beyond farcical and I’ll add that the lead time for a LCA is 9-11 months.

 

[Chinmoy]

HAL is the one who came up with that production schedule. Not some jingo on SM.

According to ADA Officials, Tejas MK2 development is to be completed by 2027. They said the government has cleared the development of prototypes of which, the first is likely to roll out in a year and the project is scheduled to be completed by the year 2027 after extensive flying trials and other related work.

https://www.defencexp.com/lca-tejas-mk2-first-flight-by-2024/

The first aircraft is expected to be delivered by March 2024, with the rest slated to join the combat fleet by 2029.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...k2-fighter-s-development-101661969910161.html

As you could see, if all the testing gets well, it would complete the tests by 2027. If by 2027 orders are placed, deliveries could be expected by 2030.

 

[Chinmoy]

NIETHER. SU30 nor Tejas should have be performing role to intercept puny drones.
Get anti-drone drones, signal jammers.

Even if they are made to perform such roles, then sukhoi/tejas should have dedicated inbuilt EW suite to cut off radio and GPS signal of drone. They should not "destroy" drones by using guns .

Simply WOW................ Do you even know how anti drone system works with signal jamming?
Leave it. This needs some dedicated thread. But thank god you didn't said that we should bring them down by firing AAMs.

Lets just talk about jet to jet here. Tejas are going to get deploy in Jaisalmer and Jammu. Let's bring in a scenario where a JF-17 formation is trying to breach in and to intercept it you have scrambled Tejas. Now assume that our formations have fired every single AAM and they too did so. Now it comes to one to one dog fight scenario. JF-17s would be equipped with onboard canon and you would be not. What you think the outcome would be?

And don't even say that its not going to happen.

 

[NutCracker]

Simply WOW................ Do you even know how anti drone system works with signal jamming?
Leave it. This needs some dedicated thread. But thank god you didn't said that we should bring them down by firing AAMs.

Lets just talk about jet to jet here. Tejas are going to get deploy in Jaisalmer and Jammu. Let's bring in a scenario where a JF-17 formation is trying to breach in and to intercept it you have scrambled Tejas. Now assume that our formations have fired every single AAM and they too did so. Now it comes to one to one dog fight scenario. JF-17s would be equipped with onboard canon and you would be not. What you think the outcome would be?

And don't even say that its not going to happen.

Aww. .. why don't you explain me how it works ??

Ukrainians are bringing down mini drones by jammer guns.
And for drones like byrakhtar SAM are their with good cost to benefit ratio .

You want to shoot mini drones by canon ?? Lmao why not fry it's circuit by dedicated EW suite .

What foolish scenario you are quoting is never going to happen in 21st century. How can both sides expend 6 missiles WVR+BVR without hitting each other ??

You are quoting desert storm stats and that also I debunked as pathetic. Only 2 helicopters were down at the end of war that too by frickin A-10 warthog.

ZERO fixed wing aircraft downed.. so get lost with your jf-17 scenario.

 

[karn]

Virgin forum dwellers debate cannon vs non cannon . .. Chad IAF specifies pylon mounted detachable cannon .