ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[NutCracker]

Virgin forum dwellers debate cannon vs non cannon . .. Chad IAF specifies pylon mounted detachable cannon .

Too much vibration. Ain't gonna hit anything.
Hona na hona barabar.
+ Drag
+ Vibration causing harm to airframe.

 

[abingdonboy]

https://www.defencexp.com/lca-tejas-mk2-first-flight-by-2024/



https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...k2-fighter-s-development-101661969910161.html

As you could see, if all the testing gets well, it would complete the tests by 2027. If by 2027 orders are placed, deliveries could be expected by 2030.

The IAF has already said they’ll take a wait and watch approach. To think they will place orders whilst LCA MK.2 is still in testing is too optimistic for me given their very recent track record.

maybe if by then their MRFA blackmail has worked they’ll give in and order MK.2 early

 

[abingdonboy]

Virgin forum dwellers debate cannon vs non cannon . .. Chad IAF specifies pylon mounted detachable cannon .

The MK.1 already has an internal canon after they ditched the pod idea

 

[NutCracker]

The MK.1 already has an internal canon after they ditched the pod idea

I dont think its even commissioned , not even FOC of flying bullets have it.

 

[abingdonboy]

I dont think its even commissioned , not even FOC of flying bullets have it.

They are installed but the gun isn’t certified yet afaik

 

[Chinmoy]

Aww. .. why don't you explain me how it works ??

Ukrainians are bringing down mini drones by jammer guns.
And for drones like byrakhtar SAM are their with good cost to benefit ratio .

You want to shoot mini drones by canon ?? Lmao why not fry it's circuit by dedicated EW suite .

What foolish scenario you are quoting is never going to happen in 21st century. How can both sides expend 6 missiles WVR+BVR without hitting each other ??

You are quoting desert storm stats and that also I debunked as pathetic. Only 2 helicopters were down at the end of war that too by frickin A-10 warthog.

ZERO fixed wing aircraft downed.. so get lost with your jf-17 scenario.

Listen. In a EW suit, you have a receiver and a transmitter. Receiver receives the incoming RADAR/Radio waves and analyze it and based on the analysis, the transmitter transmits the same wave band back to the RADAR. Now in case of a drone, how you are going to analyze the incoming radio signal from a fighter?

As far as as frying up circuits of a drone with anti drone gun system, my only suggestion is, "STOP WATCHING TOO MUCH OF STARWARS".

As far as countering my JF-17 vs Tejas scenario, you seem to be shying away and that's understandable. You are into too much of fanboyish stuff rather then practicality.

 

[Chinmoy]

The IAF has already said they’ll take a wait and watch approach. To think they will place orders whilst LCA MK.2 is still in testing is too optimistic for me given their very recent track record.

maybe if by then their MRFA blackmail has worked they’ll give in and order MK.2 early

Yes. That's why I said that its not going to get inducted before 2030. But the online jingos are making things up a lot.

 

[NutCracker]

Listen. In a EW suit, you have a receiver and a transmitter. Receiver receives the incoming RADAR/Radio waves and analyze it and based on the analysis, the transmitter transmits the same wave band back to the RADAR. Now in case of a drone, how you are going to analyze the incoming radio signal from a fighter?

Your last line is not coherent, does EW warfare only means mimicking the radar signal ??

As far as as frying up circuits of a drone with anti drone gun system, my only suggestion is, "STOP WATCHING TOO MUCH OF STARWARS".

Looks like you never heard about EMP.
STOP READING 90's COMBAT MANUALS.


Imagine if handheld gun can bring down mini drone what can an EMP burst from jet can do.

As far as countering my JF-17 vs Tejas scenario, you seem to be shying away and that's understandable. You are into too much of fanboyish stuff rather then practicality.

Because scenario you are telling is hyperbolic bullshit. You still couldn't prove how 21st century jets will expend 6 missiles without hitting each other. You are stuck in 90s , even then Guns never downed any plane.

 

[abingdonboy]

Yes. That's why I said that its not going to get inducted before 2030. But the online jingos are making things up a lot.

2030 would be satisfying. My estimation is the IAF’s actions will push this back considerably.

 

[NutCracker]

2030 would be satisfying. My estimation is the IAF’s actions will push this back considerably.

Wait till 2024 election it might be fast tracked with heavy handed approach if NDA gets majority.
Early 2023 - roll out
Early 2024 - first flight before election (nice PR).
Also no Rafale next tranch before 2024, otherwise opposition will destroy "make in India" slogan.

 

[MonaLazy]

IR dives deep on the new inlet

Spoiler

I just wanted to dispel some of the concerns of buzz in Mk2. Obviously, nothing is proven until the aircraft is ultimately built and flown. But the design has undergone a lot of studies and cleared every review possible before the config was finalized.

2. For the unitiated, buzz is basically oscillating shock waves which lead to very disturbed and undesirable airflow at the engine. Based on the severity, it can lead to thurst-loss to engine-surge to even structural damage. It is unavoidable, but it must be contained.

3. ADA did a lot of studies for understanding and minimizing the buzz and loss of pressure recovery (in other words increasing the thrust and efficiency of the engine) on Mk2. These involved extensive CFD and wind tunnel testing. And multiple rounds of both.

4. For better area ruling (lower drag at near supersonic and supersonic speeds), they had to move the intake forward. But by how much. The choice was not arbitrary. They studied with some CFD studies and validated them with wind tunnel models.

5. Here shielded refers to the kind of intakes you see in Mk1. The intake is behind the leading edge (LE) of the wing. At supersonic speeds at the LE creates a shock. The air passing through this shock (along with the shocks generated by the splitter plate and lip) ...

6. Slows down considerably. This increases the supersonic pressure recovery (which is directly related to the thrust of the engine). This good propulsive efficiency is at the cost of higher drag. So, how can that be mitigated?

7. The elongated intakes solves the drag problem, but the because the intake is no longer shielded the pressure recovery falls. Here you can see them trying to calibrate their CFD models with the wind tunnel studies. They tried two types of modeling (blue and red).

8. But both modeling methods were overpredicting the pressure recovery. So, they had to recalibrate their CFD systems for further studies. I will come to that latter. But let's continue here.

9. When they studied the elongated inlet (blue) line. They found that the buzz margins were significantly improved (good!). But the pressure recovery saw a noticeable drop (bad!). Keep in mind that this CFD is still overpredicting the pressure recovery of Mk2.

10. This means that supersonic pressure recovery of the Mk1 is pretty darn good (unlike what has been claimed without a basis from time to time). The pilots have actually refuted this again and again. But media fallacies continue.

11. The good thing is that now they know what creates the larger buzz margins on Mk1 (with respect to Mk2) and it can be mitigated if required. I have not head of any requirement for the same.

12. Let's return to the Mk2 inlets. Remember that the buzz margins were low, but the pressure recovery was poorer than the Mk1. This had to be improved! The found the solution in remodelling the intake duct and the splitter plate.

13. They found that if the extended the inlet by 900 mm, remodel the intake duct to match the canting angle, and the splitter was modified correctly. They could get to less than 1% loss when compared to the Mk1!

14. They even studied splitter plate designs which created two oblique shocks. This does not seem have provided better supersonic pressure recovery.

15. The final intake that was chosen is 900mm longer than Mk1 with a splitter plate which is about 210 mm in front of the inlet. Notice also the change in auxiliary intake doors. That is not by accident either

16. They are technically called AAID. Basically, what is good for pressure recovery at supersonic speeds is bad for low (take off and landing) speeds. They studied the lip and the cowling to great detail and validated the results before freezing the design.

..contd

 

[MonaLazy]

17. The end result of all these studies is the intakes with optimized length, lip, cowling thickness, AAID and splitter plate. All validated through multiple wind tunnel testing.

18. These aircrafts are designed and built with extensive studies and tests. Criticism by gut, eyeballing, "experience" etc. are merely opinions. Seen below multiple iterations of the wind tunnel models tested at NAL and ONERA.

@ezsasa @Indx TechStyle if this & the previous post on this thread run foul with IP of any sort please feel free to delete them.

 

[abingdonboy]

Wait till 2024 election it might be fast tracked with heavy handed approach if NDA gets majority.
Early 2023 - roll out
Early 2024 - first flight before election (nice PR).
Also no Rafale next tranch before 2024, otherwise opposition will destroy "make in India" slogan.

Why do we assume that MK.2 is a vote getter? I think the number of people that would vote for BJP because of the MK.2 entering service would be less than 100 in the entire country.

the GoI is more focused on infra and welfare schemes and hence why this mess exists because it’s being left to the babus in MoD and the services. Talk about the blind leading the blind.

where there’s a clear mandate from PMO mountains can be moved (look at railways and power) but where there isn’t and the status quo is left it its own devices well this is where we are. Remember MK1A only exists because Parrikar was a national hero of a human being.

Since he left Delhi it’s been back to business as usual. In my most crazy tinfoil hat moments I consider that the CDS’s untimely demise was a little too convenient for some interests too

 

[skunk works]

Just saying...It's been nearly 10 years since this thread was opened.

In the words of a well known underwater basket weaving internet forum: "2 more weeks."

 

[NutCracker]

Why do we assume that MK.2 is a vote getter? I think the number of people that would vote for BJP because of the MK.2 entering service would be less than 100 in the entire country.

the GoI is more focused on infra and welfare schemes and hence why this mess exists because it’s being left to the babus in MoD and the services. Talk about the blind leading the blind.

where there’s a clear mandate from PMO mountains can be moved (look at railways and power) but where there isn’t and the status quo is left it its own devices well this is where we are. Remember MK1A only exists because Parrikar was a national hero of a human being.

Since he left Delhi it’s been back to business as usual. In my most crazy tinfoil hat moments I consider that the CDS’s untimely demise was a little too convenient for some interests too

Our population loves photo-ops , Infra is one part of NDA's promises other one is Make in India. Coalition opposition will eat BJP alive if any Rafale deal is signed before 2024, and first flight of MK2 will give much needed physical proof of MII existence because we will still be importing mobile phones from China and Semiconductor/Battery mfg wont have picked up pace till then.

Also earliest flight will make lot more defence enthusiasts realise that how obscure the IAF's demand of 114 more MMRCA is.

 

[Chinmoy]

2030 would be satisfying. My estimation is the IAF’s actions will push this back considerably.

Depends on tests completion and production schedule. If these two gets finalized on or before 2027, we could see induction by 2030. If any of these gets delayed, then it would effect the timeline.

 

[Chinmoy]

Your last line is not coherent, does EW warfare only means mimicking the radar signal ??



Looks like you never heard about EMP.
STOP READING 90's COMBAT MANUALS.


Imagine if handheld gun can bring down mini drone what can an EMP burst from jet can do.



Because scenario you are telling is hyperbolic bullshit. You still couldn't prove how 21st century jets will expend 6 missiles without hitting each other. You are stuck in 90s , even then Guns never downed any plane.

First of all you have to understand the principles of Radio wave usage in battlefield and how they work.

First is RADAR. Now RADAR have two operating mode. 1st being search mode, 2nd being track mode.
Second is communication. For both data and voice.

Now how jamming or E/W works.

During search mode, radar transmitter sends either a low frequency wave in wide band or could send a high frequency narrow band wave. Here the E/W platform would receive the incoming wave and would replicate the same waveband and transmit it back. But it would transmit those signals multiple times which would make the ground receiver assume that instead of a single target, there are multiple incoming targets and it becomes hard for it to recognize the real target among all the false targets.
Now comes the tracking part. Here since you are getting hit by a high frequency band, replicating multiple targets is going to be a hard job. So instead of that, the transmitter starts transmitting the same frequency at rapid or delay pulse which makes it hard to pinpoint the exact distance of the target for the shooting platform.

Now comes the comm jamming part. Communication jamming in case of a fighter craft is straight forward job. Feel the surrounding with so much noise that it becomes hard for the recipient to distinguish between useful and useless data received by the target. This could be done in case of a fighter with dedicated E/W platform. But when it comes to drone comm jamming, things are not as straight forward. Communication system in between planes and drones are not same. In between planes, you establish a communication channel through which data and voice streaming takes places. Interrupt it and your job is done. But in case of drone, you are not establishing such a communication channel unless you are doing a wedding videography or anything else. You do give commands in form of ping and to disrupt that you do need to hit it with unidirectional frequency unlike that in case of fighters.
Now how are you going to fire a unidirectional frequency barge on a drone from a fighter and that too by keeping the lock ? On other hand, even for decent E/W warfare against these type of drones, what platform do we have? Atleast Uncle Sam do have Growlers to atleast show. What we have?

Coming to EMP weapon. Which fighter or lets say any other platform have EMP gun or EMP blast creator in it? May be Darth Vader or Skywalker do posses such planes, but here we are talking about earth and that too of India. Please enlighten me on this.

The video you have shared is neither of EMP gun nor a Microwave or Laser gun. Its an anti drone system which makes use of unidirectional frequency, which I said about above, to disrupt any kind of ground communication to reach the drone. For it to work, you have to keep a lock on the drone for a specific time frame. If the drone is autonomous, then its not going to work. For that you need a DEW in form of microwave weapon which we also do posses.

Good luck putting it on a fighter as of today.

As for the last part, may be I am still living in 90's. But thank god I am not living in a star war era future. Even KF-21 boramae designers are living in same era as of me.

 

[abingdonboy]

Our population loves photo-ops , Infra is one part of NDA's promises other one is Make in India. Coalition opposition will eat BJP alive if any Rafale deal is signed before 2024, and first flight of MK2 will give much needed physical proof of MII existence because we will still be importing mobile phones from China and Semiconductor/Battery mfg wont have picked up pace till then.

Also earliest flight will make lot more defence enthusiasts realise that how obscure the IAF's demand of 114 more MMRCA is.

Infra affects the common man=votes. National security doesn’t gain a single votes it can only lose them if you screw up like 26/11.

Indian public isn’t paying attention, they don’t k ow what an ALH is or the games they played against Arjun. Let’s also be real- the IAF pegging the project to go back to LCA nomenclature after they used MWF for a while means most won’t even see the significance in the first flight of the MK.2. It’ll be seen as just another Tejas, IAF’s goal accomplished.

PMO isn’t giving much attention to MoD because it just isn’t a priority of this govt (backed up by the decline in defence spending as a % of GDP under their term)

 

[abingdonboy]

Depends on tests completion and production schedule. If these two gets finalized on or before 2027, we could see induction by 2030. If any of these gets delayed, then it would effect the timeline.

Induction in 2030 means starting production ~2028 which means orders in 2026 at the latest. That is not happening, IAF will demand project milestones be completed before they place orders. At this point 2032 will be a small miracle

 

[NutCracker]

First of all you have to understand the principles of Radio wave usage in battlefield and how they work.

First is RADAR. Now RADAR have two operating mode. 1st being search mode, 2nd being track mode.
Second is communication. For both data and voice.

Now how jamming or E/W works.

During search mode, radar transmitter sends either a low frequency wave in wide band or could send a high frequency narrow band wave. Here the E/W platform would receive the incoming wave and would replicate the same waveband and transmit it back. But it would transmit those signals multiple times which would make the ground receiver assume that instead of a single target, there are multiple incoming targets and it becomes hard for it to recognize the real target among all the false targets.
Now comes the tracking part. Here since you are getting hit by a high frequency band, replicating multiple targets is going to be a hard job. So instead of that, the transmitter starts transmitting the same frequency at rapid or delay pulse which makes it hard to pinpoint the exact distance of the target for the shooting platform.

Now comes the comm jamming part. Communication jamming in case of a fighter craft is straight forward job. Feel the surrounding with so much noise that it becomes hard for the recipient to distinguish between useful and useless data received by the target. This could be done in case of a fighter with dedicated E/W platform. But when it comes to drone comm jamming, things are not as straight forward. Communication system in between planes and drones are not same. In between planes, you establish a communication channel through which data and voice streaming takes places. Interrupt it and your job is done. But in case of drone, you are not establishing such a communication channel unless you are doing a wedding videography or anything else. You do give commands in form of ping and to disrupt that you do need to hit it with unidirectional frequency unlike that in case of fighters.
Now how are you going to fire a unidirectional frequency barge on a drone from a fighter and that too by keeping the lock ? On other hand, even for decent E/W warfare against these type of drones, what platform do we have? Atleast Uncle Sam do have Growlers to atleast show. What we have?

Coming to EMP weapon. Which fighter or lets say any other platform have EMP gun or EMP blast creator in it? May be Darth Vader or Skywalker do posses such planes, but here we are talking about earth and that too of India. Please enlighten me on this.

The video you have shared is neither of EMP gun nor a Microwave or Laser gun. Its an anti drone system which makes use of unidirectional frequency, which I said about above, to disrupt any kind of ground communication to reach the drone. For it to work, you have to keep a lock on the drone for a specific time frame. If the drone is autonomous, then its not going to work. For that you need a DEW in form of microwave weapon which we also do posses.

View attachment 172494

Good luck putting it on a fighter as of today.

As for the last part, may be I am still living in 90's. But thank god I am not living in a star war era future. Even KF-21 boramae designers are living in same era as of me.

yeah .. Boramae designers knew more than f-35 designers. Ironic.

DJI like drones can still be dealt with net equipped drones. Better than scrambling jets.

you still didn't answer the hard part.

Lets just talk about jet to jet here. Tejas are going to get deploy in Jaisalmer and Jammu. Let's bring in a scenario where a JF-17 formation is trying to breach in and to intercept it you have scrambled Tejas. Now assume that our formations have fired every single AAM and they too did so. Now it comes to one to one dog fight scenario. JF-17s would be equipped with onboard canon and you would be not. What you think the outcome would be?

And don't even say that its not going to happen.

What foolish scenario you are quoting is never going to happen in 21st century. How can both sides expend 6 missiles WVR+BVR without hitting each other ??

You are quoting desert storm stats and that also I debunked as pathetic. Only 2 helicopters were down at the end of war that too by frickin A-10 warthog.

ZERO fixed wing aircraft downed.. so get lost with your jf-17 scenario.

I am again asking you to show me few fixed wings gun kills in last 3 decades.