ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[Physx32]

Both.. Retards are having wet-dreams about keeping 114 MRFA, 200 AMCA Mk1 & 250+ AMCA Mk2.

AMCA is not IAF's wet dream. As AMCA comes closer to reality, IAF will do the same thing as Tejas. Then they'll float a new tender for 200 NGMRFA and eventually buy su-57.

 

[flanker99]

Nobody is saying that IAF won't induct a single Tejas Mk2, the main problem is why the requirement for 12+ Tejas Mk2 squadron become 7 squadron only. China has 500+ J10s, how are we going to counter that without a substantial amount of Tejas Mk2 (Don't say AMCA). Mr. Harshvardhan Thakur's twitter account is still locked after his Tejas Mk2 tweet

7 sqd's is a good number by mid to late 30's.we don't know what kind of threats we will face into the 40's or 50's if mk2 can offer capabilities that can stay relevant in those times then im sure AF will order more.
People being way too emotional here

 

[MonaLazy]

IAF has pilot shortage.

India has no shortage of man power- this is entirely a crisis of IAFs own making. Hire more, train more in line with upcoming acquisitions just like IN.

Plus we do need more Rafale as stopgap for taking on J-20 until the AMCA comes in.

Precisely, if it is a stop-gap why not just lease it? Or acquire second hand from Armée de l'Air et de l'Espace like Greece since we want the capability- there is no other spin-off from a mega Rafale deal- other than a flight of euros back to Europe. Mk1A, Mk 2, AMCA has to be centre stage for all tactics and planning IAF does from here on. Not to forget all these aircraft will serve as mothership for Manned-Unmanned CATS warrior teams of the future. No single aircraft even if it is the mighty Rafale can take on a whole team of synergized packs.

The Chinese will be churning out J-20 like sausages in a few years.

What works for us is we will be defending, not attacking. We can counter 5th gen with anti-stealth radar- S400 should help to a large extent.

Russia’s Nebo-M radars can detect F-22, F-35 warplanes — developer

Nebo-M can detect aircraft and ballistic missiles at a distance of one thousand kilometers

tass.com

China Claims to Have Anti-Stealth Radar

Beijing’s anti-stealth efforts began in the early 2020s.

nationalinterest.org

Also, can two perfect 5th gen aircraft take on each other if they cannot see the other with their sensors? If that is so then how will even a hypothetical F-22 in IAF colours help take on J-20? It is a DPSA- and once the balloon goes up that is war and high-value strike by J20 can be countered with a punishing blow by missiles.

To counter J20 all we need to assure China is we can take an initial hit- but then respond quickly and effectively with devastating fire power- just like our nuclear NFU policy.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Precisely, if it is a stop-gap why not just lease it? Or acquire second hand from Armée de l'Air et de l'Espace like Greece since we want the capability- there is no other spin-off from a mega Rafale deal- other than a flight of euros back to Europe. Mk1A, Mk 2, AMCA has to be centre stage for all tactics and planning IAF does from here on. Not to forget all these aircraft will serve as mothership for Manned-Unmanned CATS warrior teams of the future. No single aircraft even if it is the mighty Rafale can take on a whole team of synergized packs.

Agreed. But IAF feels that way, and I don't know nearly enough about the tactics IAF has in mind. CATS should really help solve much of our advantage w.r.t. J-20. But that is still some time away.

What works for us is we will be defending, not attacking. We can counter 5th gen with anti-stealth radar- S400 should help to a large extent.

Russia’s Nebo-M radars can detect F-22, F-35 warplanes — developer

Nebo-M can detect aircraft and ballistic missiles at a distance of one thousand kilometers

tass.com

China Claims to Have Anti-Stealth Radar

Beijing’s anti-stealth efforts began in the early 2020s.

nationalinterest.org

Also, can two perfect 5th gen aircraft take on each other if they cannot see the other with their sensors? If that is so then how will even a hypothetical F-22 in IAF colours help take on J-20? It is a DPSA- and once the balloon goes up that is war and high-value strike by J20 can be countered with a punishing blow by missiles.

To counter J20 all we need to assure China is we can take an initial hit- but then respond quickly and effectively with devastating fire power- just like our nuclear NFU policy.

Agreed. Counter stealth radars should be a priority.
About 5th gen vs 5th gen fighting each other, these 5th gen won't be immune to L band detection. So lets consider an AMCA vs J20 fight. L band radar on AWACS on both sides will see the 5th gen on the opposite side. Won't have a weapons quality track though. Now as the AMCA flies towards the J20, the sensors of both will be unable to track the other, allowing them to get into WVR and thus it will be a dogfight with IIR tipped missiles. Instead, if we send a 4th gen to intercept the J20, it will not be able to track the J20 while the J20 will fire a BVRAAM forcing our 4th gen into a defensive.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Also, can two perfect 5th gen aircraft take on each other if they cannot see the other with their sensors? If that is so then how will even a hypothetical F-22 in IAF colours help take on J-20? It is a DPSA- and once the balloon goes up that is war and high-value strike by J20 can be countered with a punishing blow by missiles.

To counter J20 all we need to assure China is we can take an initial hit- but then respond quickly and effectively with devastating fire power- just like our nuclear NFU policy.

If I think about it, most of the LAC is mountains, so we could have a non-emitting MWF flying a defensive CAP low in the valleys. Terrain masking will make it invisible to J-20 radars. And if a J-20 happens to fly over it, its fu*ked. To ensure that it does fly over, we send the MWF to fly low in routes that the J20 is likely to take when it tries to avoid flying over our MANPADs and AAA sites as well as our other air defences.

So its not as if there aren't ways to counter J20 without AMCA.

 

[Vaibhavseafarer]

Imported Air Force for a reason

 

[Abdus Salem killed]

IAF has pilot shortage. Plus we do need more Rafale as stopgap for taking on J-20 until the AMCA comes in. The Chinese will be churning out J-20 like sausages in a few years. We are bound to see them permanently deployed in Xinjiang and Chengdu. So I'd say they should order 180-200 Mk2 and 72-114 more Rafale. Mk2 can go toe to toe against J-10, our flankers against theirs and then Rafale vs J-20. I know its not going to be a perfect one on one scenario, but force structures should look largely similar, for us to maintain parity.

Really sausages I don't they have such capablity
Don't supplies get fkd during war?

 

[abingdonboy]

Down to 6

IAF commits for 100 MWF-Mk2, No Trainer planned – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

It's going to keep dwindling down like this as the IAF gets more an more desperate to get their 114 MRFAs.


We outsiders know the LCA Mk.2 is the best option for industry and to get their SQN numbers up but it's irrelevant what we think, the IAF senior leadership has been utterly fixated on 100+ MMRCA/MRFA for the best part of 25 years now and they are not dropping this demand- even if it costs the LCA Mk.2 project.


Of course we can all see how this play out- there's no money for the MRFA so it won't ever see the light of day but they won't concede this point for a good many years to come meanwhile the MK.2 project stagnates and delays mount. Meanwhile the legacy fleet (jags/MiG-29s/Mirages) age and start to become more and more of a liability so have to be phased out. As a result SQN strength starts to tank again.


Sound familiar? This is the EXACT same scenario that has played out in the 00s/10s vis a vis Tejas,MMRCA and MiG-21/23/27. So we know this is plausible and the likely scenario.

An additional 36-54 Rafales off the shelf and 10-12 SQNs of LCA Mk.2 would effectively address all of the IAF's late 2020s-2030s woes but they seemingly only have eyes for the 114 MRFA as their 'silver bullet'.

 

[MonaLazy]

5th gen won't be immune to L band detection.

The biggest advantage of 5th gen- being LO is also its biggest weakness. Once that cover is blown- it is not super agile or nor can it carry a super punchy payload to take on a loaded foe.

It also begs the question- what is stopping us from mounting L band radars on Mk2 & AWACS & on the ground?

So lets consider an AMCA vs J20 fight. L band radar on AWACS on both sides will see the 5th gen on the opposite side. Won't have a weapons quality track though. Now as the AMCA flies towards the J20, the sensors of both will be unable to track the other, allowing them to get into WVR and thus it will be a dogfight with IIR tipped missiles. Instead, if we send a 4th gen to intercept the J20, it will not be able to track the J20 while the J20 will fire a BVRAAM forcing our 4th gen into a defensive.

J20 vs Mk2 on CAP

The J20 is detected by AWACS/ground-based L band radar whilst still in BVR regime where the odds favour Mk2 against any missile J20 can fire- Mk2 descends low, gets a continuous feed of enemy coordinates and gets to within WVR of J20 by engaging in nape of the earth flying. Let's remember stealth is also afforded by obfuscating Mk2 in ground clutter. Within WVR J20's stealth is no good, it is not very agile, cannot carry a truck-load of ammo/missiles whilst Mk2 is comparatively well kitted for the fight and much more manoeuvrable. It should be an easy kill for the Mk2.


J20 vs AMCA on CAP

Only advantage from above scenario is AMCA can fly straight to the engagement zone without low-level flying and consequent fuel penalty. But again biggest disadvantage from above is when it gets to WVR it will carry half-a$$ed missiles in its IWB (if you are carrying weapons on external stations then might as well send the Mk2) so what is the advantage of arriving at that point with more fuel in the tank? Now if you bring in the fact that Chinese L band radars would be continuously tracking AMCA all through its flight then you can't even fly high- will have to again resort to low level flying then what is thee advantage of AMCA? Unless stealth is a 100% guaranteed throughout the ingress and egress of the mission there is no significant advantage to 5th gen.

Also since Mk2 is cheaper we can have more of them on CAP & send 3 of them to counter J20 vs may be 1 of AMCA.

 

[WARREN SS]

whether or not it fits your profile? Decent A2A performance like Gripen, decent payload, indigenous technology and capability to integrate our own weapons. Makes a pretty strong case

It cannot fire Scalp because we don't have our own scalp. If strategic missiles were a point of consideration, then they could have ordered more Flankers- you can fire a load of missiles. For limited role that these weapons have, we already have 36 Rafale and a few more might be ordered. 114 of them when you cannot afford, and even if you could it makes no sense killing an entire project for the sake of slightly better payload and a few weapons. Hope they buy 2-3 squadrons of Rafale and be done with it.

LCA mk2 will to cost
Over 13-14 billion $
Considering the final deal will be signed in 2027

The first MRCA deal was pegged 11 billion $ which affordable during that time frame

 

[WARREN SS]

What is a third tier fighter? Who classifies tiers?
Apparently the not so first tier fighter tasted combat when it mattered.

Weight category and combat range .

 

[Covfefe]

LCA mk2 will to cost
Over 13-14 billion $
Considering the final deal will be signed in 2027

The first MRCA deal was pegged 11 billion $ which affordable during that time frame

Don't know the truth of these numbers. But 13-14 billion of 2027 and onwards is definitely cheaper than 11 billion of 2014(assuming real inflation and not currency exchange rates). Plus 13-15 billion will be spent in India, those 11 were pure forex reserves burning.

 

[MonaLazy]

The problem is when a need arises for IAF to penetrate deep into Chinese airspace or for a SEAD mission swarmed with S400, S300 and it's chinese clones, simultaneosly dealing with large number of J-16s and J-20, what will be a suitable platform for us to do this mission.?

A saturation attack with thousands of decoys & some real missiles. Not all will be stopped.

Tip of the spear

After the Abhinandan episode probably best for us to keep the man out of the loop till air superiority is achieved over the enemy. The tip of the spear will be expendables (missiles, drones, unmanned fighters)- they will be the first point of contact with the enemy.

We need to improve our GDP rapidly.

That is a given- there is no way our economy will shrink from now into the future. But it is not like we are $10T one day and suddenly start making 5th gen air force, blue water navy etc. it is a continuous process of modernization. We have lots of money saved from the St Antony years when nothing was done to that end! Besides, engineering and innovation in India is a lot cheaper than elsewhere- so the bigger bottleneck is resolve from GoI- not so much the funds for it. I hope they can put foreign fighter aircraft into the black list for imports & even MII- then IAF will see to it that Mk2 evolves into the best 4.5 gen plane in the world.

 

[WARREN SS]

Don't know the truth of these numbers. But 13-14 billion of 2027 and onwards is definitely cheaper than 11 billion of 2014(assuming real inflation and not currency exchange rates). Plus 13-15 billion will be spent in India, those 11 were pure forex reserves burning.

Figure based on 4 Squadrons mk1A

Contract Pegged 6.2 billion $

The contract cost doubke for 6-7 squadrons

Still 11 billion $ spent on 2011 got 126
MRCA
Today against China in current skirmish

 

[Brood Father]

Point MK2 Is not substitute of Rafale or Mirage-2000 categories aircraft

It lacks almost 3 ton Shortfall
In payload category
Neither it has Proven to launch Statergic Missiles like Scalp

IAF proposed 126 Requirment in 2003 itself

Deal stretched by MOD for 13-14 years

LCA mk2 is a third Tier fighter in

IAF

Primary Aircraft of IAF is still
Russian made MkI for next decade now rafale

MK2 is very important for out MIC unless you want tax payers money to go foreign agents
Also our IAF doesn't learn a thing..they only think as per current situation..
They will buy Rafaels now ..suppose in next 10 years the relationship with France go sour ..france says no to spares and our pilots will come back in coffins ..
These idiots haven't learn a thing from Mig and current Sukhoi experience all they want is foreign maal

Tejas on the other hand will be incremental . If you invest in Tejas now our MIC will get boost and soon we will develop the engines and other important components which is not indigenous. If you don't then well we will be in this system forever and ever..Even in 2070 we will having this debate .

China didnt built MIC out of the blue , they took baby steps and look at them now .

 

[Brood Father]

India’s Tejas Mk2 combat jet on track, officials say – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

Is this true or another idrw brainfart

 

[Javelin_Sam]

India’s Tejas Mk2 combat jet on track, officials say – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

Is this true or another idrw brainfart

View attachment 117156

https://asiatimes.com/2021/11/indias-tejas-mk2-fighter-jet-on-track-officials-say/
Stole from this site.

 

[Abdus Salem killed]

India's Tejas Mk2 combat jet on track, officials say - Asia Times

The Tejas Mk2 has yet to take to the air, but it is being vaunted as the future of the Indian Air Force. According to a report in Air Power Asia, the

asiatimes.com

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Really sausages I don't they have such capablity
Don't supplies get fkd during war?

They are making 100 jets each year. Right now. Share of J-20 in that production is bound to increase.

The biggest advantage of 5th gen- being LO is also its biggest weakness. Once that cover is blown- it is not super agile or nor can it carry a super punchy payload to take on a loaded foe.

It also begs the question- what is stopping us from mounting L band radars on Mk2 & AWACS & on the ground?



J20 vs Mk2 on CAP

The J20 is detected by AWACS/ground-based L band radar whilst still in BVR regime where the odds favour Mk2 against any missile J20 can fire- Mk2 descends low, gets a continuous feed of enemy coordinates and gets to within WVR of J20 by engaging in nape of the earth flying. Let's remember stealth is also afforded by obfuscating Mk2 in ground clutter. Within WVR J20's stealth is no good, it is not very agile, cannot carry a truck-load of ammo/missiles whilst Mk2 is comparatively well kitted for the fight and much more manoeuvrable. It should be an easy kill for the Mk2.


J20 vs AMCA on CAP

Only advantage from above scenario is AMCA can fly straight to the engagement zone without low-level flying and consequent fuel penalty. But again biggest disadvantage from above is when it gets to WVR it will carry half-a$$ed missiles in its IWB (if you are carrying weapons on external stations then might as well send the Mk2) so what is the advantage of arriving at that point with more fuel in the tank? Now if you bring in the fact that Chinese L band radars would be continuously tracking AMCA all through its flight then you can't even fly high- will have to again resort to low level flying then what is thee advantage of AMCA? Unless stealth is a 100% guaranteed throughout the ingress and egress of the mission there is no significant advantage to 5th gen.

Also since Mk2 is cheaper we can have more of them on CAP & send 3 of them to counter J20 vs may be 1 of AMCA.

Low level flying only works in mountains these days because in the plains, using ground clutter to hide is not a viable strategy anymore because radars these days can usually track you despite the clutter. Its only viable in the mountains where you can literally hide behind the mountain.

AMCA is still much better because it won't get shot at till its in WVR and within IIR range. 4th gen just won't be able to do that, unless they have the advantage of terrain masking, which they will have in only particular situations.

Another factor is that in any real world scenario, a 5th gen won't fly alone, rather it will fly as part of a strike package involving 4th gen fighters as well. In such a scenario, having an AMCA as the vanguard ensures that a non-emitting AMCA can get close to the enemy package, switch on its radar, fire a volley of BVRAAM at the enemy's 4th gen fighters and then bug out. Now, the enemy 4th gen is forced to go defensive and hence AMCA has managed to shave off the 4th gen component of the Chinese strike package and the J-20 are now alone and become more easy to attack by other jets in our formation, be they 4th gen or 5th gen. If ours are 4th gen, J-20 will similarly put our jets on the defensive and then it will have a choice of either bugging out (leading to a mission failure for the Chinese) or it can attempt to enter WVR with our 4th gen jets with an advantage (as our 4th gen are busy in evasive manuevers). If J20 controls the merge, it can hit and run, destroying our 4th gen fighters.

Now as long as we don't have AMCA, we don't have this capability. Terrain masking won't work everytime, IAF will have to think about other innovative means to defend our airspace.

 

[rohit b3]

When a journo like Sandeep Unnithan had said that Mk2 is not on the cards and that the project is being opposed by officers within the IAF, it seems trustworthy. In the episode of 'Rakhwale' that was posted here, he clearly said that AF didn't want Mk2 and wanted to back AMCA in full. If this is true, it really shows that either their strategic planning is extremely poor or there is a LOT of corruption. They will do just about anything to keep a foreign fighter the mainstay of IAF.

Corruption.
They just want something which they know will take time. When we had Tejas mk1, they wanted Tejas mk2. Now when we are having Tejas mk2, they want AMCA. When we will have AMCA, they will want BMCA....later CMCA...DMCA..Whatever...
Their aim is to not induct Indian jets and buy foreign jets under the pretext of "Stop gap", except its not "Stop gap". Its the whole backbone of the IAF.

This tactic was very well understood by our late Parrikar, and thats why he had proposed and approved the Tejas mk1A and cut down MMRCA to just 36 Rafales. He used his politics and shrewdness to make IAF accept the Tejas mk1A, 83 of them!