ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[sthf]

Actually, we are between and will remain so for a long time.

Most likely yes.

Options wrt industrial developments?

None. Offsets from Rafale will only get you so far.

But it helps in selling projects like Tejas Mk-2 in order to keep working towards developing a MIC through continuity, which is necessary for skill development and evolution of infrastructure. With so many necessary benefits who is complaining?

It doesn't. Mk2 is an expensive progam with very uncertain returns. Even if everything goes right which most assuredly won't what you are looking at is last of the Mk2 to enter service in around year 2038 and retiring in 2068 or even after that. I don't care much you love LCA but no sane mind wants IAF to fly them in 2070s.

India needs to go balls to the walls on Mk1A and AMCA. There is no other way around. Mk2 is a distraction at best and a disaster waiting to happen at worst.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Most likely yes.



None. Offsets from Rafale will only get you so far.



It doesn't. Mk2 is an expensive progam with very uncertain returns. Even if everything goes right which most assuredly won't what you are looking at is last of the Mk2 to enter service in around year 2038 and retiring in 2068 or even after that. I don't care much you love LCA but no sane mind wants IAF to fly them in 2070s.

India needs to go balls to the walls on Mk1A and AMCA. There is no other way around. Mk2 is a distraction at best and a disaster waiting to happen at worst.

Evolution is one necessary part of the development process of developing an industry. Without it no one has ever succeeded in moving to next let alone leapfrog an entire generation. Entire flanker family from model 27 to 35 is an example of this.

what MK-2 will do is give time and reason to Indian industry to move to next generation of avionics and electronics in a step by step manner. For example, Uttam AESA MMR will be put in AMCA in its next-generation avatar. That next generation avatar will have incorporated all the lessons learned during it usage on MK-2. Similarly, Fly-By-Light can also be introduced on Mk-2 before putting it on a high-risk project like AMCA. List of such technologies is very long that needs to be tested on a low-risk platform, before moving on to AMCA.

In nutshell, the job of MK-2 is to keep the wheels running till we go full throttle on AMCA. In the meantime what MK-2 will surely do is give us a Mirage 2000 class 4.5 gen MRCA for IAF.

Surely you need not to care about my love for Tejas neither i have to any of yours'. But as long as PAF and PLAAF are using 4 gen fighters the 4.5 gen Tejas will remain relevant. We don't need weapons to kill extraterrestrial aliens.

 

[Filtercoffee]

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[sthf]

Evolution is one necessary part of the development process of developing an industry. Without it no one has ever succeeded in moving to next let alone leapfrog an entire generation. Entire flanker family from model 27 to 35 is an example of this.

Bad example. Flanker program was a very successful one. Later iterations came into being after a large number of Su-27 entered into service. This is not the case with LCA.

what MK-2 will do is give time and reason to Indian industry to move to next generation of avionics and electronics in a step by step manner. For example, Uttam AESA MMR will be put in AMCA in its next-generation avatar. That next generation avatar will have incorporated all the lessons learned during it usage on MK-2. Similarly, Fly-By-Light can also be introduced on Mk-2 before putting it on a high-risk project like AMCA. List of such technologies is very long that needs to be tested on a low-risk platform, before moving on to AMCA

You are talking about subsystems. You don't a new air frame for that. That is not how this works. Mk2 is not a low risk program as you put it. It is a completely new air frame with completely new propulsion and will share very parts with Mk1.

Mk1A is a low risk program not Mk2.

In nutshell, the job of MK-2 is to keep the wheels running till we go full throttle on AMCA. In the meantime what MK-2 will surely do is give us a Mirage 2000 class 4.5 gen MRCA for IAF.

No you don't. Let's be clear on some things. IAF wanted light fighters to replace Mig-21 hence the "light" in LCA. Mk1A is a light fighter, Mk2 is not.

Now that MMRCA has been reincarnated, why would you need another medium fighter?

Surely you need not to care about my love for Tejas neither i have to any of yours'. But as long as PAF and PLAAF are using 4 gen fighters the 4.5 gen Tejas will remain relevant. We don't need weapons to kill extraterrestrial aliens.

Another bad example. Both PLAAF and PAF were flying Mig-19 based Q-5 well into the 2010s, I never found anyone saying that India should continue to use Su-7 because neighbours were doing so.

Both PLA and PA are still using modernized Type-55s. Never heard the same argument for T-55s in Indian service.

PAF might as well use JF-17s in the 22nd century, should we follow the suit too?

 

[Rahul Singh]

Bad example. Flanker program was a very successful one. Later iterations came into being after a large number of Su-27 entered into service. This is not the case with LCA.

Successful or not the point was evolution which is necessary to develop futuristic technologies.

Russia even developed SU-35 when it was already test flying PAK FA and when its primary adversary was flying two types of 5 th gen fighter. China is inducting SU-35 when its J-20 is also entering service. The point is there has been always a neccecity for bridging programs between two generations

You are talking about subsystems. You don't a new air frame for that. That is not how this works. Mk2 is not a low risk program as you put it. It is a completely new air frame with completely new propulsion and will share very parts with Mk1.

Of course, you need evolving platforms for evolving subsystems. Capital assets are the primary driving force behind the development of sub-systems.

GTRE and LRDE would have never put their effort in Turbofans and X band MMRs (now AESA) had there not been any Tejas.

Mk1A is a low-risk program not Mk2.

Scaling up an airframe marginally does not change the aerodynamics radically.

MK-2 draws substantially from Tejas MK-1 in absolute terms as well as in comparison to AMCA. So it is not a high-risk program.

MK-1A is not even a low-risk program it is Upgrade with minor tweaks in the airframe.

No you don't. Let's be clear on some things. IAF wanted light fighters to replace Mig-21 hence the "light" in LCA. Mk1A is a light fighter, Mk2 is not.

Exactly MK-2 is not a light fighter, just like Mirage 2000 is also not a light fighter. So no point in buying an MRCA from outside just for the sake of having a Medium weight class fighter. But if such a deal helps in getting substantial help in developing AMCA then why not.

If concluded Rafale deal(MRCA 2) will bring some help for AMCA as well as supplementing MKIs while MK-2 will make for numbers as well as bringing capability on par with Mirage 2000 UPG.

Now that MMRCA has been reincarnated, why would you need another medium fighter?

We need Rafale as MRCA for getting some technologies which are expected to help in the development of AMCA. We need MK-2 to help existing indigenous technology evolve to the standards closer to that of next-generation technology.

Another bad example. Both PLAAF and PAF were flying Mig-19 based Q-5 well into the 2010s, I never found anyone saying that India should continue to use Su-7 because neighbours were doing so.

Both PLA and PA are still using modernized Type-55s. Never heard the same argument for T-55s in Indian service.

If we had not considered the fact that part of enemy's force structure are made of upgraded versions of old era MBTs then IA would have straight gone for replacing its T-72s with T-90 MS, not upgrading it into CIA.

Similarly, if PAF and PLAAF had not been using its 4th gen fighters but only using 5th gen then IAF would not have asked for a 4.5 gen MRCA and would have straightly gone for either SU-57 or F-35 if not both.

Cost plays a major factor in building up an arsenal and fighting a war. Everyone looks for cost-effective solutions this where the evolution of existing products makes sense commercially.

PAF might as well use JF-17s in the 22nd century, should we follow the suit too?

If PAF disbands its military we won't need any military infrastructure on our western borders, nor we need to worry about a two-front war.

Cost of building military capabilities has always been and will always be justified in proportion to threat perception.

 

[Kshithij]

IAF wanted light fighters to replace Mig-21 hence the "light" in LCA. Mk1A is a light fighter, Mk2 is not.

MK2 is a light fighter. It is lighter than Gripen E and F16 and much lighter than Rafale. It is still a light fighter, not medium fighter. Mirage 2000 was also a light fighter.

Now that MMRCA has been reincarnated, why would you need another medium fighter

The MMRCA is still not confirmed and it is very unlikely that another country will simply provide all the technology for making it in India. India must have major equipment by itself like engines, avionics etc. It is better to have indigenous project as backup and then obtain additional ToT than be reliant on mercy of foreign country. Tejas MK2 is also much smaller than Rafale and is going to be easier to manufacture en masse when needed. The MMRCA may be redundant but not Tejas MK2.

That is not how this works. Mk2 is not a low risk program as you put it. It is a completely new air frame with completely new propulsion and will share very parts with Mk1.

The airframe is definitely new but the design is not. The airframe is only a bit more extended than what it was in MK1 but no major design changes exist. The FBW is quite robust and is capable of flying a plane even when parts of its body is damaged. FBW is meant to include all scenarios including those in which the wings or tail get damaged from enemy SAM or BVR missile. The propulsion change will not be a big deal as Tejas always had been designed to be replaced by Indian engine. So, the system is built to accept change.

Cost of building military capabilities has always been and will always be justified in proportion to threat perception.

The acquisition of technology and knowledge is a key thing in life. Irrespective of the threat, technology acquisition must always be pursued. Threat perception only dictates amount of mass manufacturing, not research. Research is in general cheap and costs only limited natural resources and requires labour of only a few scientists.

 

[Shaitan]

.............................https://grabcad.com/library/lca-tejas-navy-1

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You did this? You're talented, hope your produce more stuff. Watermark your stuff.

 

[kunal1123]

.............................https://grabcad.com/library/lca-tejas-navy-1

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Really great stuff..........:biggrin2:

 

[scatterStorm]

This implies that India will be producing AMCA well into the 2050s and that is being generous considering that Mk2 won't be inducted till 2027 and will serve for atleast 30 years.

So in short, India will be in the similar position in the 2050s as it is in now. Inducting a 4th gen platform ~40 years after it was first introduced in the 1980s.

If that isn't a grim picture I don't know what is.

Not necessarily, emergence of a new military asset is only required when we have a threat. In peacetime, threat is a vague word but in stressful time it become a catalyst to move way from our comfort zone and do the unthinkable.

Best example, Israel, no country allowed them to have a nuclear program, so instead first having one overtly ,they deterred by someone else not having it either. They later made a covert program of there own. We did the same In the 1990s.

Many people on the forum don't realise that our jet program was to fill in gaps and not make a air superiority fighter, that comes later.

• Tejas program --> replaces our very old jets.
• We learn from Tejas --> move to AMCA rather than having MK2
• All knowledge consolidated to --> AMCA (ToT can be added to further escalation)

 

[Filtercoffee]

You did this? You're talented, hope your produce more stuff. Watermark your stuff.

He goes by the name of Ritwik Johnson, he is an aerospace engineer. [emoji3]

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[mahesh]

He goes by the name of Ritwik Johnson, he is an aerospace engineer. [emoji3]

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If I could get those models of Tejas I would love to animate or even rig it and make a transformers of our Lca Tejas.

Sent from my X10 using Tapatalk

 

[Prashant12]

Aeromag Magazine Tejas Updates:

The integration of Active Electronically Scanning Array (AESA) radar is underway, and it is expected to be done soon. The AESA radar will improve air-to-air superiority and strike missions and to achieve long detection ranges and multi-target tracking capabilities.

The Mark-IA is an improvedversion of the original Mark-I featuringvarious upgrades including an advanced active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar system, a new electronic warfaresensor suite, and a new externally refuelling capability. ADA has been carrying outvarious tests regarding the AAR for the past few months which have been successful. All the simulated ground tests have been successfully completed as Tejas wasrefuelled by placing it at various attitudes. The technical integration for AAR has been completed and the trials were commenced on the ground. Tejas is expected to be ready for air-to-air refuelling by the end of April.

From the 124th aircraft onwards, LCA Mk II will enter service. It will be a bigger aircraft with a higher capacity engine, higher range and payload capacity,improved aerodynamics etc. The Mk II project is in the detail design stage. The Mk II is being designed to sport an array of upgraded weapons system along with allsensors and will be capable of carrying all futuristic indigenous weapons. The majorthrust of the aircraft will be its ability to carry missiles like Astra and BrahMos. It will have Software Defined Radios (SDR) and all equipment to wage electronic warfare.



http://www.aeromag.in/Magazines/4220205605.pdf

 

[scatterStorm]

Aeromag Magazine Tejas Updates:

The integration of Active Electronically Scanning Array (AESA) radar is underway, and it is expected to be done soon. The AESA radar will improve air-to-air superiority and strike missions and to achieve long detection ranges and multi-target tracking capabilities.

The Mark-IA is an improvedversion of the original Mark-I featuringvarious upgrades including an advanced active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar system, a new electronic warfaresensor suite, and a new externally refuelling capability. ADA has been carrying outvarious tests regarding the AAR for the past few months which have been successful. All the simulated ground tests have been successfully completed as Tejas wasrefuelled by placing it at various attitudes. The technical integration for AAR has been completed and the trials were commenced on the ground. Tejas is expected to be ready for air-to-air refuelling by the end of April.

From the 124th aircraft onwards, LCA Mk II will enter service. It will be a bigger aircraft with a higher capacity engine, higher range and payload capacity,improved aerodynamics etc. The Mk II project is in the detail design stage. The Mk II is being designed to sport an array of upgraded weapons system along with allsensors and will be capable of carrying all futuristic indigenous weapons. The majorthrust of the aircraft will be its ability to carry missiles like Astra and BrahMos. It will have Software Defined Radios (SDR) and all equipment to wage electronic warfare.



http://www.aeromag.in/Magazines/4220205605.pdf

so MK2 is really going to happen aye good or bad only time will tell.

 

[Filtercoffee]

If I could get those models of Tejas I would love to animate or even rig it and make a transformers of our Lca Tejas.

Sent from my X10 using Tapatalk

I thought printing them would be precise, I wonder how paint and acurate markings would fair though with soo many choices; a transformer would be great, I even watched Robotech for its F - 14 battle droids. Naval Tejas battle droid for super sleath missions. Awesome without prejudice. [emoji3]

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[zebra7]

If an engine is being added means a new aircraft is being designed. It is nothing short of it.

Besides today it is easier to design a new aircraft than previously because of computer aids e.g CFD but testing is getting even more challenging. Unlike those times today a single platform is supposed to fulfil sweeping roles. This by its nature is a time-consuming job wrt. to testing. Especially when you want to add features like swing role, carefree manoeuvring safeguards against pilot disorientation and a range of advanced autopilot modes.

Case in point is JF-17. This aircraft which does not even has a full spectrum FBW could be cleared into service much earlier than Tejas. In Tejas entire latter half of the test flights have been dedicated towards FCS optimization.

For instance in Tejas, every store/weapon mix has to be thoroughly tested. Data generated is then used to update the FCS. A pilot does not need to worry if it has a balanced mix or unbalanced mix. He just flies like always. But same is not the case with a JF-17 pilot. He has to have balanced store mix still he needs to remain aware of limits and danger such load mix presents wrt to departure from controlled flight.

Thee hollistic approach was taken due to the fact that ADA was aware that the strong lobby of import lovers was working against the Tejas development and any mishaps would have put the whole program into galow straight.

 

[Kshithij]

I want India to be a superpower and for India to be a superpower it has to surpass every other country even U.S.A in every way but there is only 1 thing that will make India a superpower which is very well written here:- http://unplannedthings.com/how-to-make-india-a-superpower/

Why are you spamming this everywhere? This is LCA MK2 page

 

[Sancho]

• Tejas program --> replaces our very old jets.
• We learn from Tejas --> move to AMCA rather than having MK2
• All knowledge consolidated to --> AMCA (ToT can be added to further escalation)

None of these milestones was achieved so far.
Tejas in it's current state can't replace older fighters, since it didn't met the goals of the programme to provide IAF with currently needed capabilities and performance to defend the country.

We also hardly can use anything from the Tejas programme for AMCA, since most indigenous systems developments either failed or are delayed (radar, engine, weapons...), which is why many parts needed to be imported.
When you then add the fact, that AMCA is suppose to have far more advanced capabilities (IRST, TVC, LAD, advanced EW, stealth design...), it gets clear why FGFA and MMRCA were more crucial for AMCA, than LCA.

The industrial goal of the LCA programme, was to set up the base for an indigenous aviation industry and even that, was only partially achieved, since we still lack important test and production facilities.

LCA MK2 is not a choice, but a necessity to finally make the fighter and the programme worth it, while AMCA is the next big dream.

 

[Steven Rogers]

None of these milestones was achieved so far.
Tejas in it's current state can't replace older fighters, since it didn't met the goals of the programme to provide IAF with currently needed capabilities and performance to defend the country.

We also hardly can use anything from the Tejas programme for AMCA, since most indigenous systems developments either failed or are delayed (radar, engine, weapons...), which is why many parts needed to be imported.
When you then add the fact, that AMCA is suppose to have far more advanced capabilities (IRST, TVC, LAD, advanced EW, stealth design...), it gets clear why FGFA and MMRCA were more crucial for AMCA, than LCA.

The industrial goal of the LCA programme, was to set up the base for an indigenous aviation industry and even that, was only partially achieved, since we still lack important test and production facilities.

LCA MK2 is not a choice, but a necessity to finally make the fighter and the programme worth it, while AMCA is the next big dream.

All those arguments are not worth of today, the bottom line is LCA mk2 is no longer what iaf required in 2002 ASR and is shelved already, Now development says they want tejas mk2 MCA not an LCA . The technologies which are crucial for an aircraft are available in India itself for ex the design, serpentine rnd, CFC and nano composites, RAM, METAMATERIALS , glass cockpit and possibly the radar and EW suite,Active electronic sensor jammers. So far engine is also delivered by GE and I see no reason for further delay. New RFI or MMRCA 2.0 is important for not delaying AMCA and not needed to develop things from scratch.

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[Sancho]

All those arguments are not worth of today, the bottom line is LCA mk2 is no longer what iaf required in 2002 ASR and is shelved already,

IAF never asked for an MK2 in the ASR, but for performance, that sadly only the MK2 will be able to deliver! So the main goal of MK2 is still to achieve the ASR requirements. Just because we needed decades to achieve it, doesn't change that.

The technologies which are crucial for an aircraft are available in India itself for ex the design, serpentine rnd, CFC and nano composites, RAM, METAMATERIALS , glass cockpit and possibly the radar and EW suite,Active electronic sensor jammers.

Not even close! We have issues with nearly every conventional aircraft design, with the result of drag and overweight for LCA, IJT, Saras, or even LCH.
The material issues of the LCA radome also showed us limitations, not to mention that we needed to hire Airbus, to get the mess in our flight testing and NLCA design fixed again. Stealth design is even more complex, not only to divert radar signals, but also to minimise the drag from the unconventinal design, that is not aimed at aerodynamic performance. That alone will be a major problem and would require a design and development partner from scratch.
And even if I put my hopes on Samtel, the likely choice for AMCAs cockpit, was the JV between HAL and Elbit, for a similar LAD that Gripen E or F18 B3 uses (MMRCA RFI asks about LAD). Not to mention that even with Israeli support, DRDO was not able to develop an EW suitable for MK1A, let alone a more advanced one for AMCA (MMRCA RFI also asks about GaN and EW capabilities).

The standard quote, "we have developed composites", is not enough to make a 5th gen fighter, since the difference between a 4th gen LCA and a 5th gen AMCA is too big.

 

[Babloo Singh]

Tejas Mark II -- Crystal Ball Gazing

Is Tejas Mk2 shelved ? Well as @Sancho rightly points out,

IAF never asked for an MK2 in the ASR, but for performance,

Tejas started with design weight of 5.5 ton & powered by 80+ Kn Kaveri, thanks to materials & additional capability requirements we ended up with 6.6 Tons.... 20% higher empty weight. and Kaveri wasn't there.
So we added GE 404 which gave us approx 8-10% higher thrust to offset some of the weight gain but GE 404 was 42 cm longer than Kaveri, so it eat up valuable space inside Tejas.
Result compromise on internal SPJ or internal fuel quantity... or may be both.along with less than required T/W ratio hence performance.

So here comes Tejas Mark II, with a 50 cm fuselage plug, to regain internal space, aerodynamic improvements & weight reduction & most importantly 98 Kn GE-414 to cover up for drop in T/W ratio. Aim here was to maintain 6.6 Ton weight even after adding space. This should deliver the performance required by air force.
This suits air force as they not only get required performance but are able to ask for ordering of single engine jets from foreign vendors as this will take time and they are short on Sqn strength.

Now come to Tejas Mk1A a stop gap arrangement forced down the throat of IAF, giving them many bells & whistles required by them but still lacking the performance due to inherent T/W deficit. But there was small twist here... Rafale & Safran. Now suddenly a 95 Kn Kaveri started looking like a real possibility.
So if we put this Kaveri 95 in Mk-1A & implement some of the weight saving measures planned for MK II, we get
the T/W required and not only that but we also get a 42cm plug in aircraft without making any structural change. Oops now this can be done faster than even foreign jet supplies and MK-II not required.

So lobbies get to work, single engine RFI is cancelled, talks of MMRCA2 starts...... is this end of Tejas MK-II... well I don't think so, Tejas MK-II for IAF will now shape up around AMCA engine (K-10 or GE 414 EPE)