ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

Kshithij

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Lol and don't we pride ourselves that HAL developed HTT 40 on their own, without government funding?

On the other side they failed to develop IJT, so we blame politics for IJT and praise HAL for HTT 40, the usual convinient way.
IJT or HTT is a small project LCA is a big project. HTT can be funded by HAL pockets but LCA can't be. Also, LCA was developed by ADA which does not have source of income like HAL.
Of all those 35 years people count LCA took in development what they don't know is that first sum of money was only release in the period of 1991-93. And LCA was on its maiden flight in 2002 despite setbacks of Pokhran.

Without IAF committing enough numbers, the ADA-HAL was not taking the project any further. There is a requirement for extra flow of money for expediting a testing process specially one with many unknowns. Developers need to place orders for systems that cannot be locally sourced. Then there is long gestation period before those systems can be delivered. Also, third-party vendors require enough orders to break-even if they are asked to set up dedicated infrastructure. Nothing could be done without sufficient order in required numbers.

Here 20 IOC + 20 FOC was hardly any numbers for building a production line with a capacity of 16 aircraft per year at HAL let alone at third party places. And in reality, ADA-HAL only started expediting the development when then DM M Parikar cut the Gordian knot with MK-1A. Supposedly it was enough to at least reach break even. Since then things started to pace up. Today we are witnessing 1 Tejas out of production every month.

As for the technical challenges. Well, nothing unusual. Team Tejas was learning and building capability at the same developing a combat aircraft with cutting-edge technologies. It is nothing short of a miracle that they completed IOC phase without a single incident let alone an accident. SAAB with rich experience to draw from had crashed Gripen twice even when they were only using a customised F-16's FBW.

As for FOC delays. Let me put an example. When EF 2000 which entered service in 2003, attained FOC with RAF in only 2008. Similarly, Tejas which acquired IOC in 2013 should be getting FOC sometime in 2018-19.
What is normal here? The plane had first flight in 2001 and till 2015 it had nothing significant of its own. Everything was imported and even today the engine and radar are imported. In addition, many other items like IRST, weapons integration was incomplete. How is this any normal? Developing engine is a crucial part of developing a plane. India had managed to develop avionics, FBW and airframe only. There was no other development.

The problem with Tejas and EF or Rafale is that Tejas does not have an engine of its own. Without engine, it is a dud. Engine development is the key to developing a plane. India also makes Al31F engines. It is really strange that India has been developing Kaveri for 20 years and still nothing has come out. Rafale was started in 1986 and inducted in 2001. This was when the computerisation was not as significant as today. The M88 engine was completed in 10 years.

India had manufacturing experience in planes been before Tejas. India made MiG21 Bisons in India including the engines. India was not specially disadvantaged. Yet, India was too slow.

Wrong, many avoidable development mistakes and over ambition were prime reason of the "development" got delayed on many levels.
No politician forced ADA to design the world's smallest fighter or DRDO to develop the largest MBT. No politician is responsible for overweight and drag issuse of the design. No politician is responsible, for the delays of IOC and FOC as explained, since all that is part of the development of ADA.
What you can hold politicians accountable to, is the selection of ADA/DRDO as the leading agency, without taking foreign partners into account, or not properly setting up the infrastructure of the Indian aviation industry, but not for any development mistakes of the programme.
It sadly took that long and it still will take nearly a decade, till we might have a version that complies to the basic requirements and just as in the past, the MK2 will be dependent on not more delays in the programme.

Keep in mind, that we selected the engine years ago, but couldn't move on with MK2, because of the IOC/FOC delays. The same delays that then led to the MK1A compromise. So although the government supported the MK2 and pushed for engine and consultancy partners to improve the development, the slow pace of certifications and ongoing development issues, keep hurting Tejas.
First, the Tejas was meant to be a light plane like Gripen C. Is Gripen C too small? May be. But that is what was also Tejas MK1 size. MBT was not the largest. Abrams and Arjun both weigh the same. So, your argument that Indian scientists botch up on size is absurd.

The IAF gave a small fighter requirement and it was made. The idea was to mass manufacture the plane. Tejas being a delta wing was also a perfect fit for that- delta wings have lower assembly time. It was not that ADA was stupid that small fighter was made. Secondly, it was meant to establish air superiority by virtue of having superior maneuverability due to low size. But today's BVR improvement and AESA radars have made this unnecessary and since the late 1990s, world moved towards multirole fighters. This was not design flaw but changing circumstances.

What foreign partners would you have wanted? What do you expect foreign partners to do? Do you think any foreign country except Russia would have given away technology transfer to India? if you are speaking of design, Tejas did use foreign help. It was designed after Mirage 2000. But, the design to make it a small fighter was decided by IAF.

Engine may have been selected years ago but no concrete specifications were given for Mk2. Just selecting engine will not automatically make Tejas MK1 get upgraded. The reason why no specifications were given was political. Delays don't happen by magic. Delays happen because the basic specifications are not provided.

Government supported MK2 and engine development only after 2014. But, unfortunately, the 10 years of blackhole meant that there was not even a specification and hence a new specification had to be drafted, which eventually resulted in MK1A as an interim measure and development of MK2. MK2 development effectively began only in 2016.

Nothing will be delayed if the politicians are supportive. It is hostile politicians that cause problems
 

Rahul Singh

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What is normal here? The plane had first flight in 2001 and till 2015 it had nothing significant of its own. Everything was imported and even today the engine and radar are imported. In addition, many other items like IRST, weapons integration was incomplete. How is this any normal? Developing engine is a crucial part of developing a plane. India had managed to develop avionics, FBW and airframe only. There was no other development.

The problem with Tejas and EF or Rafale is that Tejas does not have an engine of its own. Without engine, it is a dud. Engine development is the key to developing a plane. India also makes Al31F engines. It is really strange that India has been developing Kaveri for 20 years and still nothing has come out. Rafale was started in 1986 and inducted in 2001. This was when the computerisation was not as significant as today. The M88 engine was completed in 10 years.

India had manufacturing experience in planes been before Tejas. India made MiG21 Bisons in India including the engines. India was not specially disadvantaged. Yet, India was too slow.
Perfectly normal for a country which did not have requisite infrastructure nor any experienced team for anything except manufacturing. Do you think setting a design team is an easy task? How many wind tunnel facility India had before 1983?

For you, FWB and an Airframe may not be a significant development. But look around how many of inexperienced players have an airframe of their own engine?

Chinese are far more experienced than us. Do they have any fighter with a Chinese engine? Does even Gripen have a Swedish engine?

If you think Tejas development is slow which sure it is. Then you will also need to look at the contributing factors. Meagre funding, lack of proper project management, no crash permitted etc etc.
 

Kshithij

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Perfectly normal for a country which did not have requisite infrastructure nor any experienced team for anything except manufacturing. Do you think setting a design team is an easy task? How many wind tunnel facility India had before 1983?

For you, FWB and an Airframe may not be a significant development. But look around how many of inexperienced players have an airframe of their own engine?

Chinese are far more experienced than us. Do they have any fighter with a Chinese engine? Does even Gripen have a Swedish engine?

If you think Tejas development is slow which sure it is. Then you will also need to look at the contributing factors. Meagre funding, lack of proper project management, no crash permitted etc etc.
The point I wanted to make was that politics ensured that Tejas development is slowed down. If the politics was supportive, then it would have been far different
 

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Previously it was public sector vs private. We never cultured private sector in defence. Now its getting better as public and private are coming togather. Government should have done this long back.
 

Rahul Singh

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The point I wanted to make was that politics ensured that Tejas development is slowed down. If the politics was supportive, then it would have been far different
See politics played its own role. Technological challenges played its own.

Tejas was a cutting-edge fighter being developed with a sword over the head. A minor incident could have closed it for good.
 
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Kshithij

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See politics played its own role. Technological challenges played its own.

Tejas was a cutting-edge fighter being developed with a sword over the head. A minor incident could have closed it for good.
That sword over the head was itself politics. No country disallows a single crash. In fact, USA planes crashed several times during development
 

Rahul Singh

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That sword over the head was itself politics. No country disallows a single crash. In fact, USA planes crashed several times during development
Indeed.

But the politics was played not just at MoD but also at Vayu Bhawan along with typical places in Lutyens.

That's why Tejas is not less than a miracle. And Team Tejas is not less than a band of superstars.
 

Kshithij

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Indeed.

But the politics was played not just at MoD but also at Vayu Bhawan along with typical places in Lutyens.

That's why Tejas is not less than a miracle. And Team Tejas is not less than a band of superstars.
The MoD controls everything. The IA does not choose much. If the MoD insists that the IAF declares somthing as bad, then IAF will. MoD is the boss. Army is subserviant to MoD.
 

Rahul Singh

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The MoD controls everything. The IA does not choose much. If the MoD insists that the IAF declares somthing as bad, then IAF will. MoD is the boss. Army is subserviant to MoD.
It the services which prepare QR. And it is they who give presentations about how they think a product is progressing from a user point of view...............There is a collective effort good or bad. And services are not excluded out of it.
 

Kshithij

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It the services which prepare QR. And it is they who give presentations about how they think a product is progressing from a user point of view...............There is a collective effort good or bad. And services are not excluded out of it.
The MoD has the final say. Simply don't say anything. The services are subserviant to ministry. If the ministry decides that certain things have to be bought, it will be bought. Tejas was also bought by services in 20 numbers on 2006. and was to complete delivery by 2010. But, not 1 was delivered till 2014. Is this a work of the IAF? WHy not deliver the initial 20 MK1 planes?
 

Rahul Singh

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The MoD has the final say. Simply don't say anything. The services are subserviant to ministry. If the ministry decides that certain things have to be bought, it will be bought. Tejas was also bought by services in 20 numbers on 2006. and was to complete delivery by 2010. But, not 1 was delivered till 2014. Is this a work of the IAF? WHy not deliver the initial 20 MK1 planes?
I am not getting what you are trying to convey.

Still, first 20 Tejas was to be in IOC configuration. Tejas attained IOC only in 2013. How could they possibly start production when IAF was ready to accept anything less? Still, SP-1 maiden was conducted in 2014.
 

Kshithij

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I am not getting what you are trying to convey.

Still, first 20 Tejas was to be in IOC configuration. Tejas attained IOC only in 2013. How could they possibly start production when IAF was ready to accept anything less? Still, SP-1 maiden was conducted in 2014.
Initial production is done to develop infrastructure and increase sortie rates so as to get better data for feedback for FBW. The IOC being given in 2013 was a farce. There was no reason to waste 12 years from first flight to IOC. Even the IOC was branded as IOC-1 as the IOC was incomplete. How would it be different if IOC was given in 2008-9 itself by increasing the speed?

The first 20 planes were meant to be trial aircrafts and to be manufactured to speeden up the development.
 

Rahul Singh

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Initial production is done to develop infrastructure and increase sortie rates so as to get better data for feedback for FBW. The IOC being given in 2013 was a farce. There was no reason to waste 12 years from first flight to IOC. Even the IOC was branded as IOC-1 as the IOC was incomplete. How would it be different if IOC was given in 2008-9 itself by increasing the speed?

The first 20 planes were meant to be trial aircrafts and to be manufactured to speeden up the development.
IOC can be granted only as per parameters set by IAF. IAF did not even call IOC in 2011 as complete. They just called it IOC-1. It was only after IOC-2 in 2013 that Tejas could be certified. By then SP-1 was already in production. Which IAF asked to be heavily modified before raising the first squadron. That is why 45th squadron could be raised only in 2015.

There was no way HAL could have started production in 2009.
 

Kshithij

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IOC can be granted only as per parameters set by IAF. IAF did not even call IOC in 2011 as complete. They just called it IOC-1. It was only after IOC-2 in 2013 that Tejas could be certified. By then SP-1 was already in production. Which IAF asked to be heavily modified before raising the first squadron. That is why 45th squadron could be raised only in 2015.

There was no way HAL could have started production in 2009.
Just stop justifying delays and tell me what was the developmental increments done during 2005-2009? As far as I see, the delays during this time was political. The IOC is just branding and that IOC could have been given in 2008-9 itself. It just required stable ASQR and large number of sorties to collect data quickly.

HAL could have started production in 2008 itself if the government had directed the IAF to increase the number of sorties and get IOc quickly. The IOc was delayed not because of too much workload but due to purposefully slow trials. You are just focusing on one aspect without considering the root cause behind it.

The IOC was not magical and there was no reason to take 12 years after first flight, especially since the engine was anyways decided to be imported from USA.
 

Rahul Singh

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Just stop justifying delays and tell me what was the developmental increments done during 2005-2009? As far as I see, the delays during this time was political. The IOC is just branding and that IOC could have been given in 2008-9 itself. It just required stable ASQR and large number of sorties to collect data quickly.

HAL could have started production in 2008 itself if the government had directed the IAF to increase the number of sorties and get IOc quickly. The IOc was delayed not because of too much workload but due to purposefully slow trials. You are just focusing on one aspect without considering the root cause behind it.

The IOC was not magical and there was no reason to take 12 years after first flight, especially since the engine was anyways decided to be imported from USA.
And the point is?

Did not i already mention following?

Tejas' delay has many aspects to it; technical challenges, political and bureaucratical mismanagement, IAF's disinterest in having an indigenously designed fighter to name few.

Why go in circles?
 

Kshithij

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And the point is?

Did not i already mention following?

Tejas' delay has many aspects to it; technical challenges, political and bureaucratical mismanagement, IAF's disinterest in having an indigenously designed fighter to name few.

Why go in circles?
You are going in circles. The root cause of Tejas delay is political. Political masters control IAF, HAL and can impose harsh conditions like 'No crash or the project will be scrapped'. You are trying to pin the blame on other aspects and undermine the political aspect.

My point is that the problem of Tejas delays is 90% due to political reasons and other reasons are just 10%. If there was good politics, then Tejas would not have been delayed
 

Rahul Singh

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You are going in circles. The root cause of Tejas delay is political. Political masters control IAF, HAL and can impose harsh conditions like 'No crash or the project will be scrapped'. You are trying to pin the blame on other aspects and undermine the political aspect.

My point is that the problem of Tejas delays is 90% due to political reasons and other reasons are just 10%. If there was good politics, then Tejas would not have been delayed
Where did I say Tejas' problems wrt to delays are minus political?
 

Rahul Singh

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NG: How many more Tejas aircraft would you like to see in the IAF in the next 10 years?

CAS: The IAF has committed for procurement of 123 x LCA. As you are aware, the IAF has already signed two contracts for 40 x LCA Mk 1 aircraft. Of these, 20 are in the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) standard and 20 will be in Final Operational Clearance (FOC) standard. RFP for 83 x LCA Mk 1A was issued in Dec 17. These deliveries of these aircraft would be completed in the next 10 years. We expect LCA Mk-2 to replace Mirage 2000, Jaguar and MiG-29 aircraft in the future.

http://bharatshakti.in/rafale-provi...deterrence-against-our-adversaries-air-chief/

........................................................................

Now even Chief of Air Staffs has also spoken about the capabilities of Tejas MK-2.

Hope all naysayers are listening.
 

patriots

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NG: How many more Tejas aircraft would you like to see in the IAF in the next 10 years?

CAS: The IAF has committed for procurement of 123 x LCA. As you are aware, the IAF has already signed two contracts for 40 x LCA Mk 1 aircraft. Of these, 20 are in the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) standard and 20 will be in Final Operational Clearance (FOC) standard. RFP for 83 x LCA Mk 1A was issued in Dec 17. These deliveries of these aircraft would be completed in the next 10 years. We expect LCA Mk-2 to replace Mirage 2000, Jaguar and MiG-29 aircraft in the future.

http://bharatshakti.in/rafale-provi...deterrence-against-our-adversaries-air-chief/

........................................................................

Now even Chief of Air Staffs has also spoken about the capabilities of Tejas MK-2.

Hope all naysayers are listening.
one question if tejas..mk2 will replace mig 29 ,mirage2000 and Jaguar then why another fighter competition......now we have 200 sukhoi ..will produce 123 mk1..tejas 200 mk2...we will procure amca(2030)....may be we are not going for fgfa ..still now no news on fgfa deal ...so we are going for another competition.
 

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