ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[HariPrasad-1]

It is said that next 97 Tejas will have improvements. Let see. I think there won't be much of structural changes. As it would result in delays.
Most likely it will have sensor fusion, single large area display, improved EW suit.
As u said there is potential in increasing fuel capacity in spine as discussed earlier many time here. Also reduction in weight is possible as it still has significant ballast in the frame. It's tail less canard less delta so the correction via fly by wire controls is limited which possessed challenge.
Correct me if I'm wrong Tejas was very initially visioned to have 5.3tons empty wt.
Later it was thought to have 5.8tons.
However in mk1 ioc it went around 7 tons. The landing gears were also over engineered
Despite using 45% composites it had more weight than larger gripen C which had 6800kg empty weight. Which had 20% less composites than Tejas. However it is a canard delta.

During development of mk1A it was said ballast will be reduced by ~800-1000kg.
However it was reduced by around ~500kg.
So the weight is still more at 6560kg.
They should try for weight reduction. Any weight reduction is better. The DDR guy had said we had no experience in developing aircraft so the many components of Tejas were over engineered in fear. As now they would have enough knowledge know how about stress on components so they can opt for weight reduction. But most important if it happens in given time..
If weight reduction happens and it brought down anywhere near it's envisioned number the spine can be re-engineered more fuel can be accomodated.
Even if hypothetically it's weight is reduced by 500kg and we manage to increase its weight by 300,400,500 kgs or even more would be very big boost for a light combat aircraft. It already has highest fuel storage among light combat aircrafts. It's thrust to weight ratio will also be increased which is good. It will very much come close to mca's like mirage 2000. It's combat effectiveness against f16s will increase as it will have more loiter time. Which is where LCA's suck against MCA's.
@MirageBlue am I right brethen,correct me if I'm wrong somewhere.
View attachment 255595View attachment 255596

True That. However, because of some overweight LRUS, we looses the advantages we gained from extensive carbon composite usage. We need to make it light to perform well in Himalayas and elsewhere. Meanwhile 83 Tejas are manufactured, we can develop a frontal stealth version with batter composite (Already developed for MWF). Additional internal fuel is possible. If initial studies are to be believed, MK1A already carries 60 KG additional fuel. Electronics gets old too soon and replacement is due every 5 years so I do not bother about them much. What we need is a continual improvement in platform so that it remains effective and relevant for a longer period of time. If we are able to improve aerodynamics, reduce weight and improve turn ratio to 18* per second, It can be a great close fighter as well. It is planned to carry the world's top SRAAMs like ASRAAM and Pyrhon V. If make it a frontal stealth, It will be able to beat anything in neighborhood including J20. I am awaiting for these parameters to out for MK1A.

 

[Samej Jangir]

True That. However, because of some overweight LRUS, we looses the advantages we gained from extensive carbon composite usage. We need to make it light to perform well in Himalayas and elsewhere. Meanwhile 83 Tejas are manufactured, we can develop a frontal stealth version with batter composite (Already developed for MWF). Additional internal fuel is possible. If initial studies are to be believed, MK1A already carries 60 KG additional fuel. Electronics gets old too soon and replacement is due every 5 years so I do not bother about them much. What we need is a continual improvement in platform so that it remains effective and relevant for a longer period of time. If we are able to improve aerodynamics, reduce weight and improve turn ratio to 18* per second, It can be a great close fighter as well. It is planned to carry the world's top SRAAMs like ASRAAM and Pyrhon V. If make it a frontal stealth, It will be able to beat anything in neighborhood including J20. I am awaiting for these parameters to out for MK1A.

Can you explain how electronics go old soon? This is not a video game. Things don't grow old soon in military. The only reason for electronics to grow old in last 30 years was the miniaturisation of electronic chipsets. But by 2020, the miniaturisation is almost stagnant. For example, Intel processors have been using 10nm tech for its 10th, 11th & 12th gen processors. Although there is improvement, it is more of a managed progress where intel deliberately releases slightly underpowered chips which are just enough to surpass previous generation but does not reach full potential.

But in defence equipments, one does not do such tricks of underpowering chipsets. So, for all practical purposes, the electronics won't become obsolete quickly going forward. That being said, if bugs are found or additional features demanded, there can be changes. But the trend of obsoletion is over. It is just like how Ak47 is as good today as it was in 1960 as mechanical technology has saturated for long time.

As for other weight reduction, any changes in aerodynamics, centre of gravity, shape will need serious redesigning which will derail the program. There is a reason why Tejas Mk2 is being developed - Tejas Mk1 is deficient. Any changes desired is better incorporated in Mk2 instead of keeping on redesigning Mk1A

 

[MirageBlue]

It is said that next 97 Tejas will have improvements. Let see. I think there won't be much of structural changes. As it would result in delays.
Most likely it will have sensor fusion, single large area display, improved EW suit.
As u said there is potential in increasing fuel capacity in spine as discussed earlier many time here. Also reduction in weight is possible as it still has significant ballast in the frame. It's tail less canard less delta so the correction via fly by wire controls is limited which possessed challenge.
Correct me if I'm wrong Tejas was very initially visioned to have 5.3tons empty wt.
Later it was thought to have 5.8tons.
However in mk1 ioc it went around 7 tons. The landing gears were also over engineered
Despite using 45% composites it had more weight than larger gripen C which had 6800kg empty weight. Which had 20% less composites than Tejas. However it is a canard delta.

During development of mk1A it was said ballast will be reduced by ~800-1000kg.
However it was reduced by around ~500kg.
So the weight is still more at 6560kg.
They should try for weight reduction. Any weight reduction is better. The DDR guy had said we had no experience in developing aircraft so the many components of Tejas were over engineered in fear. As now they would have enough knowledge know how about stress on components so they can opt for weight reduction. But most important if it happens in given time..
If weight reduction happens and it brought down anywhere near it's envisioned number the spine can be re-engineered more fuel can be accomodated.
Even if hypothetically it's weight is reduced by 500kg and we manage to increase its weight by 300,400,500 kgs or even more would be very big boost for a light combat aircraft. It already has highest fuel storage among light combat aircrafts. It's thrust to weight ratio will also be increased which is good. It will very much come close to mca's like mirage 2000. It's combat effectiveness against f16s will increase as it will have more loiter time. Which is where LCA's suck against MCA's.
@MirageBlue am I right brethen,correct me if I'm wrong somewhere.
View attachment 255595View attachment 255596

Further weight reduction is well neigh impossible.

Just benchmark the ~6500 kg empty weight of the Tejas Mk1A against the Gripen C (which is 9G capable) and you'll see that they've reached the point where weight reduction will likely be difficult and minimal.

The data from the MAST LCA structural fatigue specimen which is undergoing fatigue testing to allow ADA/HAL to specify the safe life of the airframe, that data will be useful. It may prove that some primary structures are very sturdy, even more sturdy than was required. But it is simply too much effort to go back to re-designing primary structures to reduce some 100-200 kgs.

One area where weight may reduce further may be in some LRUs that may become smaller with more modern electronics. But nevertheless, I don't expect more weight reduction.

They've gotten to 6500 kg and that is in the exact weight category as the Gripen C, JF-17 and KAI FA-50.

 

[MirageBlue]

As for other weight reduction, any changes in aerodynamics, centre of gravity, shape will need serious redesigning which will derail the program. There is a reason why Tejas Mk2 is being developed - Tejas Mk1 is deficient. Any changes desired is better incorporated in Mk2 instead of keeping on redesigning Mk1A

You're right that there is not going to be any major change in aerodynamics or the Outer Mould Line for the second order of 97 Tejas Mk1A. It will require more work than is feasible for now. CFD, WT tests, FCS reworking, what not.

Tejas Mk2, TEDBF, AMCA..there are 3 other programs running in parallel and we have finite number of engineering and testing resources.

 

[Spitfire9]

Further weight reduction is well neigh impossible.

Just benchmark the ~6500 kg empty weight of the Tejas Mk1A against the Gripen C (which is 9G capable) and you'll see that they've reached the point where weight reduction will likely be difficult and minimal.

The data from the MAST LCA structural fatigue specimen which is undergoing fatigue testing to allow ADA/HAL to specify the safe life of the airframe, that data will be useful. It may prove that some primary structures are very sturdy, even more sturdy than was required. But it is simply too much effort to go back to re-designing primary structures to reduce some 100-200 kgs.

One area where weight may reduce further may be in some LRUs that may become smaller with more modern electronics. But nevertheless, I don't expect more weight reduction.

They've gotten to 6500 kg and that is in the exact weight category as the Gripen C, JF-17 and KAI FA-50.

If Mk1A is adequate for IAF use, it is good enough, isn't it? The IAF needs lots of Mk1A soon, not lots of optimised Mk1A later. I would think that it is time to focus on getting Mk2 built ,tested and into production.

 

[daya]

Well, you also have to ask yourself: can India afford USA treating India as the same kind of rival countries as Russia and China instead of a semi ally?
India is expecting the foreign investment/TOT to develop herself, USA and West are your only hope.

USA and West both need India equally.

 

[brat4]

USA and West both need India equally.

they need India to fulfil their own needs - which may not necessarily coincide with what India and Indians want.

 

[abingdonboy]

That may all be true but, you know, I don't recall the UK government getting involved with arranging the assassination of American IRA fundraisers (many in NE USA) and arms suppliers.

The U.K. govt has 100% hunted down IRA outside of Northern Ireland and that isn’t even contested

to compare khalistanis who have murdered 100s of innocent Indian citizens (forget about the armed sovereignty challenge) to Scottish independence campaigners is beyond disingenuous. When faced with similar threats from Islamists the U.K/US has quite freely employed lethal force (air power mostly) against them and on foreign soil too

if the US messed around with the 414 deal they’ll jeopardise massive potential revenue from what will be the 2nd/3rd largest economy in the next 15-20 years. India has plenty of other options- the French being the prime candidates ready to pick up the pieces. This is before even considering the fact that the US is desperate to get closer to India for geopolitical purposes- their indo pacific strategy is worthless without India in their corner.

 

[daya]

India must hunt these suckers though more care be taken.

 

[no smoking]

if the US messed around with the 414 deal they’ll jeopardise massive potential revenue from what will be the 2nd/3rd largest economy in the next 15-20 years.

Americans proved again and again: they were willing to sacrifice their economic income if they recognized you as their enemy: Japanese, Russian, Chinese, etc.

So, don't underestimate their determination.

India has plenty of other options- the French being the prime candidates ready to pick up the pieces.

No, you don't. France is within US' orbit. Americans have plenty of methods to prohibited French from supplying the engine to you if they think that is necessary.

Safran has deep relationship with GE, which they can't afford to cut.

This is before even considering the fact that the US is desperate to get closer to India for geopolitical purposes- their indo pacific strategy is worthless without India in their corner.

Well, the same could be said about India: Western investment and technologies are critical part of India's development plan. Without them, you could surely say goodbye to your big dream.

And there is one thing that lots members are forgetting: Americans can afford losing their competition to Chinese, the worst case is that they retreat back to Eastern Pacific and they will still be one of the global superpowers. But for India, if this happens before she develops herself into the class of China and USA, you know what will happen: both these two will come after you TOGETHER!

 

[Blademaster]

Americans proved again and again: they were willing to sacrifice their economic income if they recognized you as their enemy: Japanese, Russian, Chinese, etc.

So, don't underestimate their determination.



No, you don't. France is within US' orbit. Americans have plenty of methods to prohibited French from supplying the engine to you if they think that is necessary.

Safran has deep relationship with GE, which they can't afford to cut.



Well, the same could be said about India: Western investment and technologies are critical part of India's development plan. Without them, you could surely say goodbye to your big dream.

And there is one thing that lots members are forgetting: Americans can afford losing their competition to Chinese, the worst case is that they retreat back to Eastern Pacific and they will still be one of the global superpowers. But for India, if this happens before she develops herself into the class of China and USA, you know what will happen: both these two will come after you TOGETHER!

Scaremongering at best.

 

[Samej Jangir]

Americans proved again and again: they were willing to sacrifice their economic income if they recognized you as their enemy: Japanese, Russian, Chinese, etc.

So, don't underestimate their determination.



No, you don't. France is within US' orbit. Americans have plenty of methods to prohibited French from supplying the engine to you if they think that is necessary.

Safran has deep relationship with GE, which they can't afford to cut.

Why don't you look at non western suppliers like Russia? India can get RD33 too. Why only focus on Safran? I agree that France is within NATO & under USA influence but Russia is still there.

Well, the same could be said about India: Western investment and technologies are critical part of India's development plan. Without them, you could surely say goodbye to your big dream.

And there is one thing that lots members are forgetting: Americans can afford losing their competition to Chinese, the worst case is that they retreat back to Eastern Pacific and they will still be one of the global superpowers. But for India, if this happens before she develops herself into the class of China and USA, you know what will happen: both these two will come after you TOGETHER!

Do you not understand that there is no western investments? USA never shares technology & hence India is smart to not keep unrealistic expectations. There is no reliance on west for Indian development plans.

As for USA competition, it can't afford to lose as that will mean end of USA. USA is a police state that needs huge consumption by imports and controls its own people with huge police force. It has very poor logistics due to dispersed families and will have great difficulty maintaining anything.

Also, USA & China coming after India together is a joke. What exactly will China gain by allying with USA given USA is a christian fanatic state?

 

[Spitfire9]

France is within US' orbit. Americans have plenty of methods to prohibited French from supplying the engine to you if they think that is necessary.

One of the reasons countries have selected French fighters with French engines is to avoid political interference from the US. How does the US block supply of Rafale or French engines to whoever France chooses as a customer?

Safran has deep relationship with GE, which they can't afford to cut

Either party would be insane to cut their relationship. CFM sales approach 100 billion dollars a year. Do you think that GE can afford to pass up revenue approaching 50 billion dollars a year?

 

[Spitfire9]

Why don't you look at non western suppliers like Russia? India can get RD33 too. Why only focus on Safran? I agree that France is within NATO & under USA influence but Russia is still there.


Do you not understand that there is no western investments? USA never shares technology & hence India is smart to not keep unrealistic expectations. There is no reliance on west for Indian development plans.

As for USA competition, it can't afford to lose as that will mean end of USA. USA is a police state that needs huge consumption by imports and controls its own people with huge police force. It has very poor logistics due to dispersed families and will have great difficulty maintaining anything.

Also, USA & China coming after India together is a joke. What exactly will China gain by allying with USA given USA is a christian fanatic state?

US is a police state? How do you get that?

US is a Christian fanatic state? Why - because the majority of the population is Christian? Are all states fanatical if the majority of the population is not Hindu? What about if the majority of the population is Hindu?

 

[Satish Sharma]

US is a police state? How do you get that?

US is a Christian fanatic state? Why - because the majority of the population is Christian? Are all states fanatical if the majority of the population is not Hindu? What about if the majority of the population is Hindu?

Uk is puppet state of usa. Its lieutenants Of usa. Go leave this thread discuss this in respective thread.

 

[Spitfire9]

Uk is puppet state of usa. Its lieutenants Of usa. Go leave this thread discuss this in respective thread.

You make statements. I query them. You appear to be incapable of accepting that.

Is your idea of a forum one in which you make statements and responses are forbidden?

 

[Samej Jangir]

US is a police state? How do you get that?

US is a Christian fanatic state? Why - because the majority of the population is Christian? Are all states fanatical if the majority of the population is not Hindu? What about if the majority of the population is Hindu?

USA actively tries to proselytize and funds the churches heavily. The entire petrodollar alliance was an alliance of the believers - Christians & muslims against atheist Communists. Many USA held territories like Taiwan, Korea, Hong Kong (UK till 1997), South Vietnam have seen major conversions. South Korea even has implicit policy of only having christian presidents. USA funded KMT in China as its head Chiang Kai Shek was a christian and his goal was to convert China which Mao saw through and rallied Chinese population against foreign agent KMT. Africa has seen major conversions funded by USA-UK-France.

So, yes, USA is christian fanatic country. It is also a police state that has very high police & security force interventions in day to day life, massive number of prisoners, arbitrary lawmaking and slew of heavy handed tactics. Most western states have high police control as they all are following USA and need police to ensure the elites' agendas are implemented without resistance.

You make statements. I query them. You appear to be incapable of accepting that.

Is your idea of a forum one in which you make statements and responses are forbidden?

FYI: I made the statement which you questioned, not him.

Let us discuss any of these off topics in this thread henceforth:

https://defenceforumindia.com/threads/chit-chat-thread.4046/

 

[Spitfire9]

Regarding Mk2, is the aim to have it assembled by HAL? If so, I presume that a further HAL assembly line will be required since building 83 + 97 Mk1A even at a rate of 24 a year would keep HAL's Mk1A lines busy until well into the 2030's.

IIRC a second Tejas Mk1 line was announced about 2016 and commissioned early 2021. I would think that where Mk2 is going to be assembled needs to be arranged soon, doesn't it?

 

[Longewala]

US is a police state? How do you get that?

US is a Christian fanatic state? Why - because the majority of the population is Christian? Are all states fanatical if the majority of the population is not Hindu? What about if the majority of the population is Hindu?

Police per population, the kind of weapons and tactics police uses, number of innocent civilians murdered by police, well documented spying anf surveillance on their own citizens.

Next you will say the US elections and political systems aren't like a corrupt banana republic.

And notice how many Indian immigrant politicians had to convert to Christianity, and the kind of issues Vivek Ramaswamy faced despite being easily the smartest of the lot.

 

[Spitfire9]

Police per population, the kind of weapons and tactics police uses, number of innocent civilians murdered by police, well documented spying anf surveillance on their own citizens.

Next you will say the US elections and political systems aren't like a corrupt banana republic.

And notice how many Indian immigrant politicians had to convert to Christianity, and the kind of issues Vivek Ramaswamy faced despite being easily the smartest of the lot.