ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

Spitfire9

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Then why are talking about rights and wrongs here? Are we talking about people or states.
Quite a few posts back I mentioned that the GE F414 deal could be at risk if the US Congress takes exception if strong evidence is found of Indian state involvement in a plot to kill a US citizen . The response was that we (India) would keep slaughtering people who supported movements that threatened India's sovereignty. It appears that most posters agree that India has the right to kill such people from other countries.

I disagree. Roughly 50% of the people of Scotland support leaving the UK. They are not doing anything illegal. They will have supporters in other countries. The UK government has not been accused of trying to assassinate their supporters in the US. How would the US respond if they discovered a British plot to do that? The US would be very unhappy. Same as they could be with India.

Which could jeopardise the supply of GE F414 for Tejas Mk2.
 
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karn

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Quite a few posts back I mentioned that the GE F414 deal could be at risk if the US Congress takes exception if strong evidence is found of Indian state involvement in a plot to kill a US citizen . The response was that we (India) would keep slaughtering people who supported movements that threatened India's sovereignty. It appears that most posters agree that India has the right to kill such people from other countries.

I disagree. Roughly 50% of the people of Scotland support leaving the UK. They are not doing anything illegal. They will have supporters in other countries. The UK government has not been accused of trying to assassinate their supporters in the US. How would the US respond if they discovered a British plot to do that? The US would be very unhappy. Same as they could be with India.

Which could jeopardise the supply of GE F414 for Tejas Mk2.
I don't recall scottish independence enjoyers carrying out political assassinations and bombings. Th IRA did and the british response is well known.
For clarity .. the current khalis have done both recently..not even going into their history.
 

Anupu

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Quite a few posts back I mentioned that the GE F414 deal could be at risk if the US Congress takes exception if strong evidence is found of Indian involvement in a plot to kill a US citizen . The response was that we (India) would keep slaughtering people who supported movements that threatened India's sovereignty. It appears that most posters agree that India has the right to kill such people from other countries.

I disagree. Roughly 50% of the people of Scotland support leaving the UK. They are not doing anything illegal. They will have supporters in other countries. The UK government has not been accused of trying to assassinate their supporters in the US. How would the US respond if they discovered a British plot to do that? The US would be very unhappy. Same as they could be with India.
F-414 won’t be a risk. Even if it was India has alternatives and contingencies.
As far as Scotland is concerned. Indian constitution does not have any provision that allows secession of a state.
Also Read more about Khalistan. Khalistan was dreamed up Pakistani ISI under its K2 plan to create insurgencies in India. It was an extremely violent movement which killed hundreds of thousands of people.Even today they indulge in several transnational crimes out of Canada.

All for the most nonsensical idea ever. These guys want a Sikh theological state in a region with nearly half the population being non Sikh and 90% Sikhs not supporting them.

As far is US getting pissed is concerned Indian pragamatism is made transparent by the difference in the way it treats US allegations vs it treated Canadian allegations. Also don’t underestimate your country bro MI6 have done more than its share of fuckery in the US. What else are friends there for right.
 
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Spitfire9

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I don't recall scottish independence enjoyers carrying out political assassinations and bombings. Th IRA did and the british response is well known.
For clarity .. the current khalis have done both recently..not even going into their history.
That may all be true but, you know, I don't recall the UK government getting involved with arranging the assassination of American IRA fundraisers (many in NE USA) and arms suppliers.
 

Anupu

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That may all be true but, you know, I don't recall the UK government getting involved with arranging the assassination of American IRA fundraisers (many in NE USA) and arms suppliers.
We don’t know for sure. MI6 is not exactly the most transparent organisation now is it buddy.
Did you ever consider that the India US relations are not exactly the US UK relations. I.E US is more likely to bury MI6’s fuckery than R&AW’s
 
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Samej Jangir

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The essence of what is being said above is that if the Indian government has a right to kill any US citizen it chooses to kill in the US if India sees fit so to do. The US should respect that right. Denying India that right would result in unfortunate consequences for the US.

If you will, believe that the US is going to accede to India dictating that US law does not apply to Indian actions in the US.

Almost forgot - does India also has a right to be supplied with the US technology it needs - for example, engines and spares required for Tejas Mk1, Mk1A, Mk2, AMCA Mk1 to be able to fly?
Do you think India depends on USA? India never thinks that USA will ever share anything with India. Even now, GE is only giving limited TOT with key parts made in USA. So, it won't really matter what GE does. If USA refuses to sell engines, India will go with RD33 and its uprated variants.

Secondly, USA has been sponsoring terror outfits in India and India has the right to retaliate. If USA does not want India to act on its soil, then USA must first stop meddling in Indian soil
 

Samej Jangir

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That may all be true but, you know, I don't recall the UK government getting involved with arranging the assassination of American IRA fundraisers (many in NE USA) and arms suppliers.
USA - UK are always on the same page. Just look how USA & allies killed Thomas Sankara. That game does not work in India was the message sent
 

Samej Jangir

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I would have thought it obvious that I do not think any country is entitled to kill people in other countries (outside of being at war with the other country). Not the US, not India, not any country.
The point here is that they did killings in Indian soil and hence India retaliated. It was started by Western agents, not India
 

no smoking

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Can usa afford india going completely in brics camp and creating a brics currency. And starts buying oil in brics currency instead of dollars ? Can us afford that.
There are 2 largest oil importers & exporters in brics. Remember that
Well, you also have to ask yourself: can India afford USA treating India as the same kind of rival countries as Russia and China instead of a semi ally?
India is expecting the foreign investment/TOT to develop herself, USA and West are your only hope.
 

Samej Jangir

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Well, you also have to ask yourself: can India afford USA treating India as the same kind of rival countries as Russia and China instead of a semi ally?
India is expecting the foreign investment/TOT to develop herself, USA and West are your only hope.
USA does not share technology. USA is itself is in huge debt to Middle east & China and can't invest in other countries. Practically USA does not give investments and technology to India. All the investments are coming from Middle east oil wealth either directly or indirectly as offshore accounts. This is also why Russia & China are winning over African countries - USA has lost its ability to give money as it no longer has the financial room due to conditions imposed by foreign creditors on the maximum external debt that can be taken by collective west. USA goes around giving equipments, tools etc and then calls it as investment or assistance by showing its value. But in terms of hard cash, USA is not in a position to give anything.

As far as India is concerned, it does not need overpriced equipments like $5 billion dollar nuclear reactor from USA when it can be obtained for much cheaper in India. India needs technology which USA will never give. So, there is hardly any strong relationship
 

tomthounaojam

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USA does not share technology. USA is itself is in huge debt to Middle east & China and can't invest in other countries. Practically USA does not give investments and technology to India. All the investments are coming from Middle east oil wealth either directly or indirectly as offshore accounts. This is also why Russia & China are winning over African countries - USA has lost its ability to give money as it no longer has the financial room due to conditions imposed by foreign creditors on the maximum external debt that can be taken by collective west. USA goes around giving equipments, tools etc and then calls it as investment or assistance by showing its value. But in terms of hard cash, USA is not in a position to give anything.

As far as India is concerned, it does not need overpriced equipments like $5 billion dollar nuclear reactor from USA when it can be obtained for much cheaper in India. India needs technology which USA will never give. So, there is hardly any strong relationship
Going a bit off-topic, You may be right in principle, but as long as the USA can print the dollar and the world trusting the dollar as the major international currency, this argument doesn't hold much.
 

HariPrasad-1

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Tejas' length puts a restriction on its optimal aerodynamic design. It happens because of suboptimal web com area ruling because of short length. However, efforts are made to make it more aerodynamic. With aerodynamic improvements, highest speed is going to increase by 2% and Transonic acceleration is going to improve by 20% in MK1A. These are good figures. Shifting of Short range missile to wing tip will reduce drag. Tejas has a good amount of space behind pilot cabin which no more requires to carry oxygen cylinder and hence can be used to add more fuel. If we work further on improvement of this plane, we can reduce weight by atleast 500 KG (When improved MK1 was conceived, a 0.5 meter longer Tejas with weight of 6150 kg was designed), Make it frontal stealth, add few hundred KG more weight and increase payload, we can get a Tejas with far more capabilities and batter mission parameter. Airforce should ask for these improvements while giving additional order. All these improvements can be done and validated in next one to one ands half year. We can have far batter Tejas MK1++ in hand in next order of 93 Tejas.
 

MirageBlue

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Quite a few posts back I mentioned that the GE F414 deal could be at risk if the US Congress takes exception if strong evidence is found of Indian state involvement in a plot to kill a US citizen . The response was that we (India) would keep slaughtering people who supported movements that threatened India's sovereignty. It appears that most posters agree that India has the right to kill such people from other countries.

I disagree. Roughly 50% of the people of Scotland support leaving the UK. They are not doing anything illegal. They will have supporters in other countries. The UK government has not been accused of trying to assassinate their supporters in the US. How would the US respond if they discovered a British plot to do that? The US would be very unhappy. Same as they could be with India.

Which could jeopardise the supply of GE F414 for Tejas Mk2.
Oh don't pontificate when you don't know anything about what you're talking .

The person in question, Pannun is not just a separatist, but is also behind an organization Sikhs for Justice, that is behind the drugs mafia (in cahoots with Pakistan's ISI) and hit jobs/assassinations of people within the Indian state of Punjab, while he's sitting in the US.

The Pakistanis use drones (we shoot down multiple each week) to drop drugs from across their border and the Khalistanis are hand in glove with the drugs mafia that then distributes the drugs across Punjab. SFJ is deeply involved in this, as are other Khalistani terror organisations.

This Pannun has openly threatened Hindus residing in Canada, telling them that they need to go back to India. He has openly threatened to bomb Air India planes.

That is a terrorist, not somenone who just wants a separate state of Khalistan. If an Arab was openly threatening Americans he would've been put on a terror list and disposed off.

But the duplicity of allowing Pannun to continue to reside in the US while he goes on with his anti-India activities and open terror threats is not going down well with us here.
 

MirageBlue

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That may all be true but, you know, I don't recall the UK government getting involved with arranging the assassination of American IRA fundraisers (many in NE USA) and arms suppliers.
What's good for the goose isn't necessarily good for the gander.

Why were so many different Islamic terrorists bumped off if one had to use kid gloves with terrorists?
 

Samej Jangir

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Going a bit off-topic, You may be right in principle, but as long as the USA can print the dollar and the world trusting the dollar as the major international currency, this argument doesn't hold much.
USA can print dollars but the world will not accept dollars beyond a point. There is a limit on how much dollars China, GCC are willing to take in. If your idea is that USA can simply print unlimited dollars to finance external activities, that is not true. USA may print dollars as long as they are circulated internally like making weapons for Ukraine. But when dollars are sent externally as direct funds, the creditors will impose limits.
 

Samej Jangir

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Tejas' length puts a restriction on its optimal aerodynamic design. It happens because of suboptimal web com area ruling because of short length. However, efforts are made to make it more aerodynamic. With aerodynamic improvements, highest speed is going to increase by 2% and Transonic acceleration is going to improve by 20% in MK1A. These are good figures. Shifting of Short range missile to wing tip will reduce drag. Tejas has a good amount of space behind pilot cabin which no more requires to carry oxygen cylinder and hence can be used to add more fuel. If we work further on improvement of this plane, we can reduce weight by atleast 500 KG (When improved MK1 was conceived, a 0.5 meter longer Tejas with weight of 6150 kg was designed), Make it frontal stealth, add few hundred KG more weight and increase payload, we can get a Tejas with far more capabilities and batter mission parameter. Airforce should ask for these improvements while giving additional order. All these improvements can be done and validated in next one to one ands half year. We can have far batter Tejas MK1++ in hand in next order of 93 Tejas.
Empty weight is not just about length but also about internals, thickness/fatness of the tube. Current Tejas is a bit fat for its length if you look at the picture. Also, many internal components have been added like refuel system, larger engines, advanced LRUs etc.

The length increase is already underway and that is Tejas Mk2. Tejas Mk1A optimisations have a limit. Most of the major changes will be incorporated in Tejas Mk2 which is a reasonable idea.
 

Satish Sharma

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Tejas' length puts a restriction on its optimal aerodynamic design. It happens because of suboptimal web com area ruling because of short length. However, efforts are made to make it more aerodynamic. With aerodynamic improvements, highest speed is going to increase by 2% and Transonic acceleration is going to improve by 20% in MK1A. These are good figures. Shifting of Short range missile to wing tip will reduce drag. Tejas has a good amount of space behind pilot cabin which no more requires to carry oxygen cylinder and hence can be used to add more fuel. If we work further on improvement of this plane, we can reduce weight by atleast 500 KG (When improved MK1 was conceived, a 0.5 meter longer Tejas with weight of 6150 kg was designed), Make it frontal stealth, add few hundred KG more weight and increase payload, we can get a Tejas with far more capabilities and batter mission parameter. Airforce should ask for these improvements while giving additional order. All these improvements can be done and validated in next one to one ands half year. We can have far batter Tejas MK1++ in hand in next order of 93 Tejas.
It is said that next 97 Tejas will have improvements. Let see. I think there won't be much of structural changes. As it would result in delays.
Most likely it will have sensor fusion, single large area display, improved EW suit.
As u said there is potential in increasing fuel capacity in spine as discussed earlier many time here. Also reduction in weight is possible as it still has significant ballast in the frame. It's tail less canard less delta so the correction via fly by wire controls is limited which possessed challenge.
Correct me if I'm wrong Tejas was very initially visioned to have 5.3tons empty wt.
Later it was thought to have 5.8tons.
However in mk1 ioc it went around 7 tons. The landing gears were also over engineered
Despite using 45% composites it had more weight than larger gripen C which had 6800kg empty weight. Which had 20% less composites than Tejas. However it is a canard delta.

During development of mk1A it was said ballast will be reduced by ~800-1000kg.
However it was reduced by around ~500kg.
So the weight is still more at 6560kg.
They should try for weight reduction. Any weight reduction is better. The DDR guy had said we had no experience in developing aircraft so the many components of Tejas were over engineered in fear. As now they would have enough knowledge know how about stress on components so they can opt for weight reduction. But most important if it happens in given time..
If weight reduction happens and it brought down anywhere near it's envisioned number the spine can be re-engineered more fuel can be accomodated.
Even if hypothetically it's weight is reduced by 500kg and we manage to increase its weight by 300,400,500 kgs or even more would be very big boost for a light combat aircraft. It already has highest fuel storage among light combat aircrafts. It's thrust to weight ratio will also be increased which is good. It will very much come close to mca's like mirage 2000. It's combat effectiveness against f16s will increase as it will have more loiter time. Which is where LCA's suck against MCA's.
@MirageBlue am I right brethen,correct me if I'm wrong somewhere.
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HariPrasad-1

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Empty weight is not just about length but also about internals, thickness/fatness of the tube. Current Tejas is a bit fat for its length if you look at the picture. Also, many internal components have been added like refuel system, larger engines, advanced LRUs etc.

The length increase is already underway and that is Tejas Mk2. Tejas Mk1A optimisations have a limit. Most of the major changes will be incorporated in Tejas Mk2 which is a reasonable idea.
I did not say at all that but Tejas was our first aircraft and hence had a conservative design. Weight reduction is quite possible with lighter LRUS etc. More space can be released for fuel storage.

True, it is a bit fat and that is exactly makes it less compliant with area ruling which I mentioned. Existing airframe has the scope to Incorporate many modifications.
 

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