ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

bole

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2015
Messages
26
Likes
34
Country flag
9000 is very easily achievable for airframes made of composite material

Lockheed Martin
https://www.lockheedmartin.com › en-us › products
The Block 70/72 has an industry-leading extended structural life to 12,000 hours
According to this person, the TTSL of HAL Tejas Mk1 and MK1A airframe is around 3000 flight-hours and it is one of the main reason why Tejas Mk1 lost to KAI FA-50 in Malaysia and will also loose in Egypt to same fighter.


Further, all over the world who develop fighter aircraft the TTSL of their fighter airframe is more than turbofan TTSL.
 

NutCracker

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2022
Messages
5,122
Likes
27,483
Country flag
According to this person, the TTSL of HAL Tejas Mk1 and MK1A airframe is around 3000 flight-hours and it is one of the main reason why Tejas Mk1 lost to KAI FA-50 in Malaysia and will also loose in Egypt to same fighter.


Further, all over the world who develop fighter aircraft the TTSL of their fighter airframe is more than turbofan TTSL.

screenshot-delhidefencereview.com-2023.05.31-09_49_06.png
 

FactsPlease

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2016
Messages
196
Likes
388
Country flag
I don't bother to continue reading it when reached below (3rd paragraph):
" It should be noted that the Gripen E/F will not be available before 2023 at the earliest. By that time, India’s Medium Weight Fighter (MWF) or Tejas Mk2 is expected to take to the skies and will be comparable to the Gripen E/F in just about every aspect. "

Facts, please.

p.s. I'm hoping the broadcasted engine deal for the best. Wonder any sense in bureaucracy, incl but not limited to ADA/HAL/IAF, will plan & prepare for the worst.
 

NutCracker

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2022
Messages
5,122
Likes
27,483
Country flag
I don't bother to continue reading it when reached below (3rd paragraph):
" It should be noted that the Gripen E/F will not be available before 2023 at the earliest. By that time, India’s Medium Weight Fighter (MWF) or Tejas Mk2 is expected to take to the skies and will be comparable to the Gripen E/F in just about every aspect. "

Facts, please.

p.s. I'm holding best hope to the broadcasted engine deal. Wonder any sense in bureaucracy, incl but not limited to ADA/HAL/IAF, will plan & prepare for the worst.
very foolish reason to stop reading at that point, because it has no correlation with the topic I posted it for.

Also its written in 2020 and it was widely believed that Tejas MWF will make FF in 2023.


The detailed design is complete. In fact, we are in the critical design review stage and metal cutting should start very shortly. Roll-out of the aircraft (Mk2) is planned next year and the first flight in early 2023. We are well on track to achieve these goals,” Girish S. Deodhare, Programme Director (Combat Aircraft) & Director, ADA, said at an event by the Centre for Air Power Studies and Society of Indian Defence Manufacturers.
 

FactsPlease

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2016
Messages
196
Likes
388
Country flag
very foolish reason to stop reading at that point, because it has no correlation with the topic I posted it for.

Also its written in 2020 and it was widely believed that Tejas MWF will make FF in 2023.

Of course I know it dated back to 2020 - it explicitly said "(2023) by that time".

Facts: MWF nor Tejas Mk2 yet take to the skies - till today. All those "well on track to achieve those goals" only sounds more sarcastic, if not pathetic. It's fine you call this fact irrelevant. Be honest, I'm tired for any further promise of Mk2. And I believe after all these years media hyping and abuse, that impatience got its stand. You do know we ground Mig21, right? When do we need Mk2 - yesterday!

- We are lucky to be exactly at 2023, right? No need to wait more to examine that promise.

And, Mr Girish Deodhare is on my watch list exactly for this promise. Don't we have enough bureaucratic kept hyping our hope, and abusing their responsibilities?
 
Last edited:

Chinmoy

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
8,761
Likes
22,778
Country flag
Thinking that goras will give you the "Know-why" is the actual stupidity
And that stupidity is in mind of us rather then people in loop.

For us and people like Sriram, ToT means the know how and know why. But we effectively leave aside the fact that, even for assembly purpose, you require ToT (manufacturing ToT).
 

AnantS

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2013
Messages
5,689
Likes
15,181
Country flag
One Q I have, how "good" is the F-18 for IAF, since we need 114 jets as a part of the MRFA program, F-18 is a contender there and is powered by GE F414 only, also it's almost confirmed if we're getting the Engine ToT then the Navy will also buy carrier-based F-18, US won't give Engine ToT just like that.

I don't know much about IAF structure and fighter jets etc so asking, I've heard F-18 is a "heavy" jet in the same class/size as the Su-30, however with Roosis current difficulties and future as a Choinees vassal F-18 does seem a good fall-back
sukhoi is comparable to f15
f18 is comparable to mig 29 and rafale

F-18 for Navy might have chances but I feel rafale is favorites as per newspaper main mentioned sutron. If GE deal gets go ahead, this only means GE is investing for future(lca and amca)
 

NoobWannaLearn

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2022
Messages
7,487
Likes
24,582
Country flag
Imagine all the hype and we get nothing out of this visit lol no drone deals no nothing would be funny if that happened in another note when is the visit?
 

Suryavanshi

Cheeni KLPDhokebaaz
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2017
Messages
16,330
Likes
70,174
30 years in, we have worked with all kind of Russian engines and the best we achieved is Kaveri.
What makes people think we will start building world class engine after this deal.

This is like enrolling into Aakash institute after already spending time in FITJEE
 

Samej Jangir

Regular Member
Joined
May 15, 2023
Messages
223
Likes
428
Country flag
Context ? Nope you have been just shifting here and there.
That is what youbare doing.
Apparently they have filtered out some of those issues with AL 41 series for which we have to pay back again.
No one even talked about Al41. India is not buying it as Russia won't give TOT for it. Also India made several substitution for Al31 which replaced Russian parts with Indian to make it fully indigenous.
And rd33 is a whole different level of mess.
Isn't better to instead work with GE 414?
RD33 is also overhauled by India. It is not a mess merely because you or the Western presstitute lobby brands it. However, it has lower thrust because of which it is not suitable for AMCA or MWF.
Al 31 has shown many mid air engine failures in normal flying conditions and their fault core components for which we have complained multiple times so let's not talk about war time for now.
Every engine has some form of problems when run over long time. Even F100 has malfunctioned.
Comparing AL31 with F-16s refined world renowned F-100 series and calling them not just same but the former better is definition of your state of mind in a single line
Al31 is bad, F100 is good. Have you looked at the number of crashes of F16s? Or you are just biased? Your fantasies is not reality.
Why do you think we went for a GE engine in the first place ?
Why do you think Malaysia went for T50 over Tejas? The answer is clear - India wannts to gain technology by diversification. India sees no point in gettkng Rd33 engines as it is already sufficienyly studied. By going for F404 and F414, India gets opportunity to learnn more types of engines. Also, UPA bias towards USA played a role.
F-16s have seen multiple wars multiple sorties and success over the years and it's engines have been phenomenal part of the success it had
Just because USA has involved in more wars than Russia doesn't mean Russian planes are bad. USA never fought a war against a formidable opponent to cite it as a proof of F16 superiority.
By your same logic of asking why India went for GE engines, I will ask you a similar question - why India bought Rafale instead of F16?
 

Flying Dagger

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2019
Messages
3,583
Likes
9,441
Country flag
That is what youbare doing.

No one even talked about Al41. India is not buying it as Russia won't give TOT for it. Also India made several substitution for Al31 which replaced Russian parts with Indian to make it fully indigenous.

RD33 is also overhauled by India. It is not a mess merely because you or the Western presstitute lobby brands it. However, it has lower thrust because of which it is not suitable for AMCA or MWF.

Every engine has some form of problems when run over long time. Even F100 has malfunctioned.

Al31 is bad, F100 is good. Have you looked at the number of crashes of F16s? Or you are just biased? Your fantasies is not reality.

Why do you think Malaysia went for T50 over Tejas? The answer is clear - India wannts to gain technology by diversification. India sees no point in gettkng Rd33 engines as it is already sufficienyly studied. By going for F404 and F414, India gets opportunity to learnn more types of engines. Also, UPA bias towards USA played a role.

Just because USA has involved in more wars than Russia doesn't mean Russian planes are bad. USA never fought a war against a formidable opponent to cite it as a proof of F16 superiority.
By your same logic of asking why India went for GE engines, I will ask you a similar question - why India bought Rafale instead of F16?
Lol

1. Al 31 doesn't need to be used for long to have problems it doesn't have as many flying hours either in comparison to GE engines either.

2. We went for GE engines long before UPA existed . So just don't throw anything out of nowhere.

3. Tejas was built around GE engine and we wanted to built something as efficient as that.

4. Rd 33 series engines fuel efficiency and smoke is world renowned . :)

5. We have replaced AL 31 engine parts with Indian ? Waah waah .

6. Al 41 TOT ? They are asking for more money and new contract for production while it is simply an uprated version of AL 31 . That's why we aren't opting for it. Kuch bhi ??

Logic isn't something you understand... But still for you

Malaysia T50 bhi ?? Lol

They bought it as they needed a conventional light trainer with light air defence capability, cheaper to operate and something that they can trust with services . T50 is everything of that which Tejas isn't right now.

Rafale is technically better and provide us more sovereign freedom in comparison to F-16. Also F-16 is in use by Porks and we didn't wanted to have the same after spending decades practicing to fight against it.

If Russian engines were that good we would have gone for that... Not juggle around with others. It's not a piece of cake where you can have chocolate and pineapple both.
 
Last edited:

MonaLazy

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2019
Messages
1,320
Likes
7,895
Details are trickling in primarily that it will take a decade to fully absorb F414 tech! & that they are also going to work on ship engines next.. also get the feeling that GE will edge out Safran and RR (already embroiled in a scandal over Hawk AJTs) for 120kN engine.. expecting some big announcements in next few months.


India & US close to mega defence deal: Pact for fighter jet engines 1st, ship engines likely next
31 May, 2023 07:30 am IST

1685523996365.png


Over 1,600-plus F414 engines have been delivered by General Electric till date | Pic courtesy: GE
Text Size: A- A+
New Delhi: After a wait of over a decade, India and the US are on the verge of signing a mega defence deal to facilitate state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited’s (HAL) partnership with American firm General Electric (GE) for jointly manufacturing indigenous jet engines of fighter aircraft.

While the partnership initially will be for aviation engines, it will eventually extend to those powering Indian military ships, ThePrint has learnt.

Sources described the proposed deal, which is likely to be announced during Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s state visit to the US next month, as one of the most definitive defence collaborations to take place between the two countries.

Chalking out the broad contours of the deal will be one of the key focus areas for US Secretary of Defense Llyod James Austin during his visit to New Delhi next week.

Sources said a memorandum of understanding (MoU) needs to be finalised between GE and HAL and both sides are “pretty close” to doing it. The second step is that US government needs to notify the Congress, which is a 30 day period. Sources said that they don’t expect any issues at the Congress.

As reported by ThePrint, Transfer of Technology (ToT) for jet engines was the main thrust of National Security Advisor (NSA) Ajit Doval’s talks with his American counterpart Jack Sullivan in February when they also operationalised the US-India Initiative on Critical and Emerging Technologies (iCET).

US President Joe Biden and PM Modi had announced the iCET in May 2022 to elevate and expand bilateral strategic technology partnership and defence industrial cooperation between the governments, businesses, and academic institutions of the two countries.

The US is keen on inking the deal as it takes the bilateral relations to a new high, and will help it beat the European competition from the French engine maker Safran and the British firm Rolls-Royce to the finish line.

Giving details of the proposed defence deal, sources in the defence establishment said the plan is to manufacture the GE F414 engine, which was shortlisted by India in 2010 to power the Mark II version of the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft Tejas, which currently comes with GE F404 engine.

Once its production starts in India, the GE F414 will power all future fighter jets including the Tejas Mk II, Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) as well as the indigenous Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF) for the Indian Navy.

The F414 is an afterburning turbofan engine in the 22,000 pound (98 KN) thrust class of engines. The Boeing Super Hornets and the Gripen fighter jets are among those aircraft that run on this engine.

While those fitted on board the AMCA is likely to be a newer version of a higher thrust class, the 100 per cent Transfer of Technology (ToT) to India has the potential to pave the way for future joint design, development, and manufacture of more powerful engines.

As per the schedule plan, the process will involve first making components for the engines in phases before actually moving to the full step up which will take at least a decade, the sources said.

The work on the F414 will be undertaken by the Engines Division of the Bengaluru-based HAL.

When the engine was shortlisted in 2010, John Flannery, the then President & CEO, GE India had said GE Aviation will supply the initial batch of F414-GE-INS6 engines and the rest will be manufactured in India under transfer of technology arrangement.

However, the plans for the ToT ran into rough weather because of a tough US government stance on export of critical technology and later was relaxed only in 2019.
 
Last edited:

Flying Dagger

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2019
Messages
3,583
Likes
9,441
Country flag
afaik some news I read a long time ago said 9000 was the number, then I asked here about it and I got that number. Still, given the high quality of the materials used on the airframe, 9000 seems like the right one.
9000 is very easily achievable for airframes made of composite material

Lockheed Martin
https://www.lockheedmartin.com › en-us › products
The Block 70/72 has an industry-leading extended structural life to 12,000 hours
There is more to an airframe life than just composite which comes in production.

Also we haven't yet got the 9000 flying hours by HAL. We will have to wait to see that.

Even Dassault claim 6000 hours for Rafale. So it's pretty good .

Anyway I am hopeful that Mk1a onwards we will streamline the production and that will.be achievable with mk2 etc and may be more.
 

Azaad

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2022
Messages
6,976
Likes
25,863
Country flag
I don't bother to continue reading it when reached below (3rd paragraph):
" It should be noted that the Gripen E/F will not be available before 2023 at the earliest. By that time, India’s Medium Weight Fighter (MWF) or Tejas Mk2 is expected to take to the skies and will be comparable to the Gripen E/F in just about every aspect. "

Facts, please.

p.s. I'm hoping the broadcasted engine deal for the best. Wonder any sense in bureaucracy, incl but not limited to ADA/HAL/IAF, will plan & prepare for the worst.
The article was penned in 2019 . At that point in time that was the given T/L of the MWF. Till Dec 22 that's what we were given to understand till the truth was dropped like a hand grenade upon us .
 

Azaad

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2022
Messages
6,976
Likes
25,863
Country flag
While those fitted on board the AMCA is likely to be a newer version of a higher thrust class, the 100 per cent Transfer of Technology (ToT) to India has the potential to pave the way for future joint design, development, and manufacture of more powerful engines.
If this is true it's bye bye SAFRAN although it needn't be so . We need to involve SAFRAN in our Kaveri derivative program & come up with an F-404 equivalent besides being attached to their program to develop an US ACE equivalent for their FCAS program.

Out in Strategic Front they have a decent sized French membership , one of whom is a retired Dassault senior executive who's been involved with the Rafale program since the very beginning & who's of the view also since the very beginning that the FCAS program with Germany would never fructify .

He's been writing letter to the French President , if you can believe it , to include India in the FCAS program should the partnership with Germany in this program collapse, being of the view that apart from France there's no nation in Europe not beholden or influenced by the US decision making process or the US MIC except India if one looks around the world & there's no other nation willing to zealously guard it's strategic autonomy as fiercely as the French as India does , hence there's natural synergy. Add to that the old history of co operation between the two countries in the last 7 decades in multiple fields. This is precisely the view of the French establishment too & something their Indian counterparts share & acknowledge

This bit of information is vital coz you just need to study how the US MIC hollowed out the UK MIC reducing BAe & RR to their sub contractors with the result that they're running around the world hat in hand desperately seeking tie ups for their very survival as independent entities are at stake . The worsening financial position of the UK isn't making it any easier for them . Their entire future is dependent on the success of the Tempest program for which they've now tied up with the Japanese.

From our past history with the US & the latter's own track record in the world , we need to have our guard up when dealing with the US . The French are greedy from our PoV but seen thru theirs they're fighting an existential war with the ever expanding US MIC where every cent wrested is another cent for their war chest. From our PoV we need to loosen our purse strings a little bit more when dealing with the French . Besides in the long term we've much more in common with the French than we do with the US .

However this calls for a very delicate walking the tight rope between guarding our own interests & balancing both the French & the US in the interim.
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top