ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[Azaad]

True but they will go slow on the testing - expanding the envelope slowly starting from ground runs. Slow and persistent are the hallmarks of Tejas & Kaveri.

You never test an untested TF on an SE FA. That's one of the founding principles of testing . Demand for an FTB is pending since a decade. I recall seeing a conversation between BRF veterans like Indranil Nilesh Rane etc where they did a bit of leg work to figure out the cost of modification of such an FTB concluding it would be in the range of 75-100 million USD . They even dug out the names of companies which carried out this kind of work in the US , Europe & Israel .

 

[astransastra]

How will you get the know how for the GE-414? They won’t give you the ceramic blade manufacturing designs/plans. They will only supply you the ceramic blades and you can build the rest of the components and assemble them. That ceramic blade is the crucial 5% part that makes everything else works. And no way is the US gonna give that know how. They will only supply the blades. If that’s the case then India needs to order 40 years worth of supplies that can last all the rebuilds, maintenance, and replacements in that 40 year span within the first year or first couple years in order to avoid sanctions.

I know several US universities have an engineering branch called 'Ceramic engineering' and in some it was 'Material Science'. Do we even have such branch of engineering for study in Indian universities? I think Indian Engineering colleges and Universities mostly provide CSE and 5 other new types CSE like branches (IT, cyber security, AI etc), ECE,EE, Mech and Civil now a days.Even if US transfers not only know-how but know-why also how can we ever develop the expertise in Jet blades if we don't even have people with an engineering degree in the required fields.

 

[AnantS]

I know several US universities have an engineering branch called 'Ceramic engineering' and in some it was 'Material Science'. Do we even have such branch of engineering for study in Indian universities? I think Indian Engineering colleges and Universities mostly provide CSE and 5 other new types CSE like branches (IT, cyber security, AI etc), ECE,EE, Mech and Civil now a days.Even if US transfers not only know-how but know-why also how can we ever develop the expertise in Jet blades if we don't even have people with an engineering degree in the required fields.

In India we had Leather Technology as one of the engineering branch 3 decades back. Not sure now.

 

[MonaLazy]

You never test an untested TF on an SE FA.

Usually not the best idea to put trial engine in single engine fighter

Funds?

Ofcourse that's the ideal situation, I'm sure the greats at DRDO know it too. But they are only talking of Tejas as the test bed for Kaveri, maybe because of paucity of funds.

 

[Azaad]

Ofcourse that's the ideal situation, I'm sure the greats at DRDO know it too. But they are only talking of Tejas as the test bed for Kaveri, maybe because of paucity of funds.

They won't do it unless the TF has been certified. For that to happen , at least the dry version has to first be certified before they can even contemplate such a move . It's a chicken & egg situation.

 

[Roland55]

While the airframe life of Tejas might be around 4000+ flying hours or may be 6 in later batches of mk2.

AFAIK the total airframe life on Tejas Mk.1 was waay more than that, like 9500hs divided in 3 stages.

 

[MonaLazy]

They won't do it unless the TF has been certified. For that to happen , at least the dry version has to first be certified before they can even contemplate such a move . It's a chicken & egg situation.

That's incorrect. There are two separate endeavours we are pursuing. One is purely Indian effort with Russian help only for certification doing 51/75 kN @1235kgs reliably- it has been tested & certified in Russia and is the one that's ready to go into Tejas. That will be a strictly academic exercise to generate data points for future engines and establish test and certification regime within the country.


French as part of Rafale offsets are helping with dry Kaveri- same engine as above but with a new redesigned fan and no AB. This can be pushed to 60/90kN and has a good chance of making it to Tejas in MLU.

 

[Roland55]

That's incorrect. There are two separate endeavours we are pursuing. One is purely Indian effort with Russian help only for certification doing 51/75 kN @1235kgs reliably- it has been tested & certified in Russia and is the one that's ready to go into Tejas. That will be a strictly academic exercise to generate data points for future engines and establish test and certification regime within the country.


French are helping with dry Kaveri- same engine as above but with a bigger fan and no AB. This can be pushed to 60/90kN and has a good chance of making it to Tejas in MLU.

Did the french provide a new core, or they helped fix the issues with Kabini?

 

[MonaLazy]

Did the french provide a new core, or they helped fix the issues with Kabini?

The latter. They did offer access to M88 core at a price but that was declined due to high cost & essentially black boxing the core and also not wanting to throw away 3 decades of hard work on Kabini (core of Kaveri).

 

[Azaad]

That's incorrect. There are two separate endeavours we are pursuing. One is purely Indian effort with Russian help only for certification doing 51/75 kN @1235kgs reliably- it has been tested & certified in Russia and is the one that's ready to go into Tejas. That will be a strictly academic exercise to generate data points for future engines and establish test and certification regime within the country.


French as part of Rafale offsets are helping with dry Kaveri- same engine as above but with a new redesigned fan and no AB. This can be pushed to 60/90kN and has a good chance of making it to Tejas in MLU.

Which one of the two is going in to the Ghatak ? That same dry version would have to have the AFB built on to it . Frankly I don't think there are two versions as of now especially one with the Russians that you're pointing out to. The Russians are merely helping us test & not develop or fine tune the TF .

OTOH SAFRAN's work on consultation long ceased after they rectified the kinks within the Kabini core & by extension the Kaveri but pointed out it'd be sub optimal at best hence offering the M-88 core instead with IPR resting with SAFRAN . This development was as of 2017-18 . You know the rest . That was the end of their involvement with the Kaveri.

What we have now is probably the same dry version which SAFRAN helped fine tune & GTRE uprated it on their own (?) I've no idea about this though . You'd have to reference more than a few tweets for this , as , if what you're stating is true then this development somehow slipped under the radar .

 

[MonaLazy]

Which one of the two is going in to the Ghatak ? That same dry version would have to have the AFB built on to it

Yup.

Frankly I don't think there are two versions as of now especially one with the Russians that you're pointing out to. The Russians are merely helping us test & not develop or fine tune the TF .

I am saying the exact same thing- the baseline design is cent per cent Indian with Russians only helping in certification. On the fork in Kaveri development I am merely quoting maitya from BRF & some reliable Twitter handles in the absence of anything else.

somehow slipped under the radar .

You bet!

Kaveri Engine

A decade is a "normal" time to developp from scratch an engine.

defenceforumindia.com

 

[shade]

One Q I have, how "good" is the F-18 for IAF, since we need 114 jets as a part of the MRFA program, F-18 is a contender there and is powered by GE F414 only, also it's almost confirmed if we're getting the Engine ToT then the Navy will also buy carrier-based F-18, US won't give Engine ToT just like that.

I don't know much about IAF structure and fighter jets etc so asking, I've heard F-18 is a "heavy" jet in the same class/size as the Su-30, however with Roosis current difficulties and future as a Choinees vassal F-18 does seem a good fall-back

 

[Azaad]

Yup.



I am saying the exact same thing- the baseline design is cent per cent Indian with Russians only helping in certification. On the fork in Kaveri development I am merely quoting maitya from BRF & some reliable Twitter handles in the absence of anything else.



You bet!

Kaveri Engine

A decade is a "normal" time to developp from scratch an engine.

defenceforumindia.com

I've seen this interview. It's more for public consumption . Where are the specifics you've quoted vide tweets in your previous post ? Dr Tessy Thomas claiming the Kaveri is good enough to fly right now aboard a Tejas is similar to what ADA officials speaking at Aero India 2021 claimed about the T/L of the LCA Mk-1 / Mk-1a / Mk-2 & those of the AMCA & TEDBF.

You've seen where things stand now. Having said that I'm not denying her claims but your previous tweet carried info of the dry version of the Kaveri of 46 KN capacity which's been certified . Whether the upgradation can happen to 60 KN of the same TF remains to be seen. It's by no means a given nor have we constructed a TD or prototype.

 

[jai jaganath]

Which one of the two is going in to the Ghatak ? That same dry version would have to have the AFB built on to it . Frankly I don't think there are two versions as of now especially one with the Russians that you're pointing out to. The Russians are merely helping us test & not develop or fine tune the TF .

OTOH SAFRAN's work on consultation long ceased after they rectified the kinks within the Kabini core & by extension the Kaveri but pointed out it'd be sub optimal at best hence offering the M-88 core instead with IPR resting with SAFRAN . This development was as of 2017-18 . You know the rest . That was the end of their involvement with the Kaveri.

What we have now is probably the same dry version which SAFRAN helped fine tune & GTRE uprated it on their own (?) I've no idea about this though . You'd have to reference more than a few tweets for this , as , if what you're stating is true then this development somehow slipped under the radar .

If I am not wrong earlier Kaveri dry was able to put up till approx 45 and in wet 75
I might be terribly wrong cause I have read it 3 years ago
But recent testing which was for 48 kn but Kaveri performed more than expectation and reached 51 kn
@MonaLazy bro one doubt the recent improvement I dry performance can that give a push in its wet performance in existing stage
And yeah AFAIK the talks with Safran failed due to their stubbornness to change the core
So no idea regarding Safran help in recent development

 

[jai jaganath]

That's incorrect. There are two separate endeavours we are pursuing. One is purely Indian effort with Russian help only for certification doing 51/75 kN @1235kgs reliably- it has been tested & certified in Russia and is the one that's ready to go into Tejas. That will be a strictly academic exercise to generate data points for future engines and establish test and certification regime within the country.


French as part of Rafale offsets are helping with dry Kaveri- same engine as above but with a new redesigned fan and no AB. This can be pushed to 60/90kN and has a good chance of making it to Tejas in MLU.

Didn't the talks with safran on Kaveri stopped cause of extra funding and change in core
If what u r saying is true that is safran is still working on it then when can we expect 60/90 version
Just a query

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

One Q I have, how "good" is the F-18 for IAF, since we need 114 jets as a part of the MRFA program, F-18 is a contender there and is powered by GE F414 only, also it's almost confirmed if we're getting the Engine ToT then the Navy will also buy carrier-based F-18, US won't give Engine ToT just like that.

I don't know much about IAF structure and fighter jets etc so asking, I've heard F-18 is a "heavy" jet in the same class/size as the Su-30, however with Roosis current difficulties and future as a Choinees vassal F-18 does seem a good fall-back

Its a great naval aircraft

Its a suboptimal land based aircraft

 

[Flying Dagger]

AFAIK the total airframe life on Tejas Mk.1 was waay more than that, like 9500hs divided in 3 stages.

Where you get that info from ?

Answering to the context is not changing goalpoast. But making one's own propaganda statement just to win arguments is shifting goalpost.

How did you conclude that Al31F or RD33 is outdated? Is it because it suits your fantasy? Why do you think F16 still runs on F100 engines as it is similar to Al31 in technology?
Al31 has lower overhaul life but it is much easier to mass manufacture, easier to maintain, is robust in terms of abilities to take bird ingestion etc. These are trade offs for TBO & durability. Wars don't need high TBO as planes get damaged snd hit regularly. You would be lucky if a plane can fly for 1000 hours before needing maintenance. The high TBO is only good for peacetime patrolling, airshows etc. Looking at a defence equipment in terms if peacetime longevity is ridiculous.

As for availability of spares, local assembly doesn't help as most spares are critical technology which will not be made in India. So the spare parts won't be available when needed. This defeats the whole point of having engines. It is better for india to use Su30s eith india made engine rather than MWF / AMCA as Su30 is guaranteed to work anytime while that is not the case with American engines.

1. Context ? Nope you have been just shifting here and there.

2. Al 31 has shown many mid air engine failures in normal flying conditions and their fault core components for which we have complained multiple times so let's not talk about war time for now.

3. Apparently they have filtered out some of those issues with AL 41 series for which we have to pay back again.

And rd33 is a whole different level of mess.
Isn't better to instead work with GE 414?

4. Comparing AL31 with F-16s refined world renowned F-100 series and calling them not just same but the former better is definition of your state of mind in a single line.


Why do you think we went for a GE engine in the first place ?

F-16s have seen multiple wars multiple sorties and success over the years and it's engines have been phenomenal part of the success it had.

 

[Flying Dagger]

One Q I have, how "good" is the F-18 for IAF, since we need 114 jets as a part of the MRFA program, F-18 is a contender there and is powered by GE F414 only, also it's almost confirmed if we're getting the Engine ToT then the Navy will also buy carrier-based F-18, US won't give Engine ToT just like that.

I don't know much about IAF structure and fighter jets etc so asking, I've heard F-18 is a "heavy" jet in the same class/size as the Su-30, however with Roosis current difficulties and future as a Choinees vassal F-18 does seem a good fall-back

We have invested heavily with RAFALE now so it's unwise to waste all that money.

Rest , they are good naval jets but there was a reason USAF opted for F-16s and F-15s and not F-18s.

Regarding Sukhoi we have the jet, we will upgrade them ourselves with Indian avionics by the end of this decade. So, except engine we will be able to completely indegenise it. No need for panic mode on it.

 

[Roland55]

Where you get that info from ?

afaik some news I read a long time ago said 9000 was the number, then I asked here about it and I got that number. Still, given the high quality of the materials used on the airframe, 9000 seems like the right one.

 

[NutCracker]

Where you get that info from ?

9000 is very easily achievable for airframes made of composite material

Lockheed Martin
https://www.lockheedmartin.com › en-us › products
The Block 70/72 has an industry-leading extended structural life to 12,000 hours